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Flightblogger: DL May Have Placed UFO 787 Order  
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5763 posts, RR: 47
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10053 times:

According to Jon DL may be the customer for the 23 787s placed in January, read on:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...on-january-14-boeing-received.html


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9973 times:

Hmmm, I wonder which engine will Delta choose. NW's 787s will be RR powered, however, if/when Delta buys out NW, they can switch to the GEnx for future orders, as they would have more in common with Delta's 772LRs.

Delta is no stranger to operating multiple engine types for a single aircraft family. A big example that comes to mind are Delta's 767s. Most of the non-ER 767-300s use GE CF6-80A engines, except for the four newest ETOPS aircraft, which use P&W PW4060s. The older 767-300ERs also use P&W PW4060s, while the newer 767-300ERs use GE CF6-80C2B6F engines. The ex-Gulf Air 767-300ER fleet uses GE CF6-80C2B6 (non-FADEC) engines, and the 767-400ER fleet uses GE CF6-80C2B8F engines.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5763 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9834 times:

I think since they haven't had any deliveries they perhaps switch out the engines before first delivery. It all depends on if GE could deliver engines on time and if RR could let them out of the contract with minimal penalty. If not then I guess they could take the 18 787 with RR, not exercise the otpions on the RR for the 50 aircraft and power those with GEs.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9839 times:

They are wrong on the numbers the 21 is for 767 300 non ER domestic aircraft. There are a total of 59 ER 767-300s.

I'm surprised someone at Flight international made such a mistake.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9746 times:



Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
According to Jon DL may be the customer for the 23 787s placed in January, read on:

Impossible. They will be a major A350 operator...  Wink Sorry, couldn't resist.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineTak From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9730 times:

WOW, big news if true. We have been wondering for a long time when the legacy airlines would get into the NG widebody ordering fray. I wonder when delta has to report this? In their annual report I guess. Wonder if AA will get into the mix and order some 787s. We'll see, should be interesting

User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9639 times:

Why would DL replace non ER 767 300s with 787 intercontinental aircraft.

The non ER 767-300s do have more cycles than the international aircraft but the 787-300 would be more suitable for replacement cost much less and are built to take more punishment.


User currently offlineCharlipr From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2005, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9530 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 6):
Why would DL replace non ER 767 300s with 787 intercontinental aircraft.

The non ER 767-300s do have more cycles than the international aircraft but the 787-300 would be more suitable for replacement cost much less and are built to take more punishment

If you keep reading towards the bottom of the blog it states that they will use the 787-8 to replace 767-300ER which will in turn replace the 767-300 (non-ER). All they will be doing is swapping of aircraft to eventually replace the non ER 767's.


User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9388 times:

Quoting Charlipr (Reply 7):
If you keep reading towards the bottom of the blog it states that they will use the 787-8 to replace 767-300ER which will in turn replace the 767-300 (non-ER). All they will be doing is swapping of aircraft to eventually replace the non ER 767's.

I must be losing it. Next I'll be calling people whippersnapper.   

[Edited 2008-04-18 10:57:07]

User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9266 times:

I definately see this being possible. I could also see why they wanted to keep it a secret for now, until the merger is complete, or at least official.

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9149 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
According to Jon DL may be the customer for the 23 787s placed in January, read on:


Impossible. They will be a major A350 operator... Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yep, it is hard to imagine DL flying an A350-A380 or whatsoever airliner coming from Airbus. DL is a company almost married to Boeing. That is their good right. It makes the sales successes of Airbus on the other hand even a bit more impressive because I believe there are still more bigger or larger Airlines out there who will only buy from Boeing than there are such Airlines out there who only buy from Airbus. Still, the order itself is good news for the B787program.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 8829 times:



Quoting Charlipr (Reply 7):
If you keep reading towards the bottom of the blog it states that they will use the 787-8 to replace 767-300ER which will in turn replace the 767-300 (non-ER). All they will be doing is swapping of aircraft to eventually replace the non ER 767's.

This is something people don't understand. Most of the non-ER 767s are older than the ERs, and there is no suitable 763 or A300 replacement right now, but there are older 763ERs and A330s that could do the work of those very old jets, and then new planes like 787s and A350s come in and take the place of the 763ERs and A330s. The cycle will continue, as 15 years later, the 787s and A350s would go onto those original 763 and A300 routes, and a new plane would take over for the 787s and A350s on long haul.

That's just the way of things.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirlineAddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 8829 times:
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Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):
Yep, it is hard to imagine DL flying an A350-A380 or whatsoever airliner coming from Airbus. DL is a company almost married to Boeing.

Are we sure of this? Didn't NW order the A320s and A330s when CEO Anderson was at NW?


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 8737 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
This is something people don't understand. Most of the non-ER 767s are older than the ERs, and there is no suitable 763 or A300 replacement right now, but there are older 763ERs and A330s that could do the work of those very old jets, and then new planes like 787s and A350s come in and take the place of the 763ERs and A330s. The cycle will continue, as 15 years later, the 787s and A350s would go onto those original 763 and A300 routes, and a new plane would take over for the 787s and A350s on long haul.

However, Delta does operate some non-ER 767-300s that aren't very old. Delta's four newest non-ER 763s (the ETOPS aircraft with P&W engines) were delivered in 1993 (N140LL and N1402A), 1998 (N143DA), and 1999 (N144DA).

Also, I wouldn't be so sure about Delta retiring their non-ER 767-300s already, considering they are in the process of getting PTVs and new slimline seats installed. Delta's oldest non-ER domestic 763 (N121DE) has already been retrofitted.

Eventually though, it makes sense to replace them with the few remaining 763ERs after the 787s take over on transatlantic routes.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 8642 times:



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
If not then I guess they could take the 18 787 with RR, not exercise the otpions on the RR for the 50 aircraft and power those with GEs.

There may be another possibilty

  • take the 18 RR powered jets
  • order new engines at GE
  • receive GE engines and sell RR engines to another Airline
  • this other airlines orders 787s without engines and brings their used Trents to Boeing instead
OK, I've never heard about an aircraft sale without engines, but why not? That way it should be possible
 Cool

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4676 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 8632 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Also, I wouldn't be so sure about Delta retiring their non-ER 767-300s already, considering they are in the process of getting PTVs and new slimline seats installed. Delta's oldest non-ER domestic 763 (N121DE) has already been retrofitted.

Those can easily come out when the plane gets sent to the desert!



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 8438 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 15):
Those can easily come out when the plane gets sent to the desert!

Still, it doesn't really make much sense for an airline to install new seats and PTVs on an aircraft, and then dump them less than 5 years later. I am pretty sure they will continue to operate 7 to 10 more years.

Speaking of this, the L-1011 fleet did get an IFE upgrade in the early 1990s. The old Beta tape server was replaced by a Panasonic/MAS S-VHS based system, and the old IFE passenger controls (channel/volume dials) were replaced by buttons and LED displays. The L-1011-500s (and I think the L-1011-250s as well) also got Airshow added to the IFE system.

I believe that most likely, the first 787s will be used for international growth rather than a 767 replacement.

[Edited 2008-04-18 13:53:01]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8214 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
However, Delta does operate some non-ER 767-300s that aren't very old.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
Most of the non-ER 767s are older than the ERs

Please show me why my statement needs correcting?  Wink

Quoting A350 (Reply 14):
receive GE engines and sell RR engines to another Airline
this other airlines orders 787s without engines and brings their used Trents to Boeing instead

Nah, they would just take them as spares.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8144 times:



Quoting A350 (Reply 14):
OK, I've never heard about an aircraft sale without engines, but why not? That way it should be possible

No aircraft orders include engines. They are separate purchases entirely. The engine manufacturer delivers them to the airframer for installation like any other customer-specified options.

NS


User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8061 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 3):
They are wrong on the numbers the 21 is for 767 300 non ER domestic aircraft. There are a total of 59 ER 767-300s.

I'm surprised someone at Flight international made such a mistake.

That is correct, there is currently 21. But don't forget that two 767-300s were recently returned to their lessor (N122DL and N123DN). So when this UFO order was placed, Delta had 23 767-300s. Chris in ATL pointed this out in his new blog: http://simuflite.blogspot.com/


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31007 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 7867 times:
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Someone on another board noted that US financial disclosure laws would require DL to announce they are the customer at the end of the quarter, so if true, we should find out soon.

Also, James Wallace with the Seattle Post-Intelligencer noted that an existing] customer placed the order, which would mean DL couldn't have placed it. However, NW could have placed it (they do have 50 options), perhaps at the behest of DL as preparation for the merger...  scratchchin 


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 7754 times:



Quoting Hamlet69 long ago in a thread far, far away:
I don't think anyone will guess who that 23 frame order is for. Unless you really paid attention at the roll-out.

If it is DL (or NW ordering at the behest of DL) what could Hamlet69 have been referring to in the second sentence?



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlinePDXCessna206 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 7258 times:

If true, I wonder if some of the 763ERs will still get winglets? Will they be used domestically or will they stay international and the non-wingleted planes used domestically?

I really hope DL buys or begins a 767-787 replacement soon.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7180 times:



Quoting PDXCessna206 (Reply 22):
If true, I wonder if some of the 763ERs will still get winglets? Will they be used domestically or will they stay international and the non-wingleted planes used domestically?

If I would guess, most likely the 30 newest 763ERs will get winglets. This would be following the logic of the 738s, as the 28 newest aircraft are the ones receiving winglets. However, only time will tell. These aircraft will remain international for now, but maybe when Delta begins to replace the older 763ERs, they can be moved to domestic.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineD328 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7093 times:

Since NW 787's haven't been built can't they just go to Boeing and say they want GE? What's so wrong with that?

25 BrianDromey : Correct me if I am wrong but aren't the -300ER birds significantly heavier than the -300 birds? So this would mean increased fuel costs and increased
26 WorldTraveler : It is mighty hard to believe the conclusions that flightblogger came up with when they get so many assumptions incorrect, including the fact that the
27 Futurecaptain : Boeing doesn't have anything to do with it. Engines are negotiated seperate from airframe. They would have to go to RR and try to get out of the cont
28 Stitch : Average OEW for a 767-300 is 86t and for a 767-300ER is 89t, so it is a bit heavier, but not horribly so.
29 N328KF : I thought the 772LR/773ER/777F were exceptions here -- that is, one contract for three parties (BA, GE, and the customer...)
30 777ER : Only problem is, NW have signed a contract with RR, so a contract is a contract which carrys fines if you pull out of the contract. NW/DL would conta
31 1337Delta764 : Exactly. However, DL/NW is free to switch to GE on the 50 unexcersised 787 options.
32 D328 : Would it be worth to pay the fines and not have an odd engine?
33 DeltaL1011man : Anderson doesn't have the final say so. The BOD does so if the same bored has ordered Boeing before and is very happy why change now? (after they had
34 Glbltrvlr : Any merger is just a proposal at this stage. I can't see any board in their right mind allowing it's CEO to order aircraft on the hope that a merger
35 WorldTraveler : NW has some of the earliest deliveries for 787s to begin with. It makes no sense for DL to place a new order that won't get 787s sooner than what they
36 Stitch : Yet Jon's source said the order was contingent on the announcement of a merger, so in such a scenario NW would want to keep the order a UFO in case t
37 DeltaL1011man : maybe but most likely not NW has most likely ordered the engines for the 18 planes plus options for the 50. how would having 68 787s with RR Trents p
38 D328 : I am almost thinking they would just go all GE... But does the RR offer any benefits over the GE?
39 CX747 : One thing about the engines on the NW and DL 787s that has not been brought up, is the fact that Boeing has designed the 787 for extremely easy engine
40 WingedMigrator : Other mergers are supposedly in the works besides DL / NW. Also, a UFO is an Unidentified Firm Order, which would cost money to cancel. Why place a f
41 Andrewtang : Now the question is, Why on earth will a NW pay penalties to RR just to get their orders cancelled? Of course they could have sold the engines to othe
42 Stitch : It has better fuel burn on climb (and descent?), so for missions under around ~3500nm the RR burns less fuel. The GEnx has the better fuel burn at cr
43 Gigneil : Anderson does have basically the final say, yes. The board (which is not remotely similar to the past, no) is there to provide independent oversight.
44 Trex8 : AFAIK DL were quite happy with the RB211s on their L1011s. having RR is not a problem for them. If it were they wouldn't have got Trents on the 777s.
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