Singel09 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 155 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9131 times:
I flew yesterday from Amsterdam to Cairo, with KLM, on a 747-400 Combi. 280 passengers and cargo. Full flight. I was surprised to be on board this magnificant bird, expecting a 737-800/900 probably.
It made me think; is this trip, duration 3:55 hrs, a suitable one for the 747? I have no clue about operating costs, but I would think that they are higher than those of a 737. So real money making on long flights, not the short ones. The return flight is on a 777-200.
One think I can think of, giving the fact the flight before this one was somewhere from Asia into Amsterdam, they prefer to have the 747 flying overnight in stead of it standing at the apron waiting for the next long-haul. It is the scheduled plane for this leg.
Can someone help me to put this in perspective? BTW, it is Amsterdam - Cairo - Amsterdam.
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6215 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9042 times:
Yeah, using these aircraft on short sectors can be a headache for two reasons. First, you're right, operating costs are higher. Second, it adds cycles to an aircraft that is typically associated with high numbers of HOURS, rather than CYCLES.
The first fact is negated IF you can fill the plane, obviously. And in being a combi, you give yourself a lot of leeway with passenger numbers. Delta Airlines made $1 million in revenue in the first month of their Bejing (or was it Shanghai) last month.... from CARGO ALONE. In the belly. Now imagine KL flying a couple of 20-footers in the back of the main deck on a combi, and you can get the idea.
The second fact is somethign that KL has apparently chosen to live with. 4 hours isn't THAT short. If they were flying AMS to Luxembourg, that would probably wreck things.
It's a lesson the US carriers learned in the 1970's: 747 flights from Chicago to Dallas don't make sense even if the aircraft is full. The bird eats you out of house and home. But JFK to LAX is better.
US330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4123 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8918 times:
Not that surprising. KLM has routinely used widebody aircraft on the route for quite a while. About two years ago, when I flew them to CAI, I was on a 777 both ways, and on both flights, the plane was packed.
Theginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8850 times:
BA run a 747-400 down to Cairo daily from Heathrow. It is the only way to do it to get that number of passengers on an aircraft. This sort of route has lots of flexibility for use of aircraft due to range not being a factor. BMI run an A320 down there from LHR.
JBH From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8626 times:
I flew an LH A343 the other day from CAI to FRA. It was completely full and prices were not low. I have also flown an LH 744 to TLV a while back. Seems to make sense comercially, otherwise these companies wouldn't fly these.
Qazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8613 times:
LH flies 2 A300s everyday to Cairo from Frankfurt - seating 217 passengers EACH. That's a daily offer of 434 seats out of which 108 are premium seats. This is equivalent to pretty much a high density B744 used on the route. This just to show that Cairo is quite the high yielding route - justifying the seat offers by European airlines.
The route used to operated with 2 LH A333s everyday, but these birds were taken out of the Cairo route and put on longer range routes ... replacing them were the older refurbished A300s in a transcontinental configuration. This is a temporary arrangement though until LH gets more A333 metals so as to redispatch them on the likes of Cairo, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Almaty and all those destinations presently served by the transcontinental A300s.
LH also operates an MD-11 Cargo on the Cairo route I believe once weekly, however I could be wrong with the frequency!
DALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8415 times:
LH Cargo does indeed operate a weekly MD-11F flight to CAI. This flight is pretty full as are the 2 daily A300 flights to CAI.
As stated earlier LH will be using a A333 as soon they become available to CAI again.
Cairo is a big middle-eastarn/african destination for a lot of airlines.
I am not suprised at all that large aircraft from various airlines operate the route . Egyptair operates quite a number european flights with large aircraft.
LH still uses a B744 to TLV as well as a A343/6 to TLV daily and the pax numbers on these flights are also very good.
I believe, correct me if I am worng, that LH is the number 1 foreign carrier to TLV.
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3265 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7901 times:
Guys another factor.
How many of these PAX on this route are connecting to other long haul flights, to the Americas and possibly even Asia? I can see a very good business case for running widebody aircraft and selling Club world, business etc 100% of the way to places like TLV and CAI.
MrBrightSide From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7080 times:
Oddly that nobody mentions hourly flights TPE-HKG on CX, CI - all in A330, B744, B777. 1hr20min flight, usually filled with pax to the max.
Also, on CI you can witness fastest boarding of any airlines - in history of B744: gates open 15min prior to departure (I was shocked when I first saw that - 20min before departure boarding gates were closed... I thought I was late )... happened with both CX and CI.
B744 on 1hr route... if any of you want to experience Boeing 747, head for short Asian trips... even managed to be in SQ B744 doing SIN-KUL (I thought it would be B738 or A320 nb, but when I saw seat 44A, something lit in my head :P
For Americans that only experienced domestic travel, interesting bit is that you get a full meal on a 1hr flight, regardless of being F, J or Y.
There's no better way to travel than fly (shameless rip of LH's slogan ;-)
COEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7029 times:
Although CAI might be a relatively short hop for a 747, it could be used to CAI because theres a high amount of traffic/cargo, and it might keep utilisation high, instead of having the a/c on the ground. EI does this with its 330's by sending them to AGP
MSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6366 times:
Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 20): Why does the BA flight have an 8 hour layover in CAI - Arrives 00:25 and departs 08:35????
For maximum connectivity to North American destinations out of LHR .
KLM never used a single aisle A/C on its route to CAI , it has always been : MD11,B767,B747 and sometimes B777 . Not only KLM , all major European carriers fly widebodies to CAI :
LH:A300 (used to be a mix of A340/A330)
And those who don't fly widebodies to CAI , either fly daily (OS,OA) or triple daily (AZ) .
A lot of pax using European carriers to connect to mainly N.America , Europe and Asia .
HB-IWC had an extensive and very informative thread about the use of KLM's long-haul A/C .