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KLM 747-400 To Cairo - Efficient?  
User currently offlineSingel09 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 150 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8113 times:
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All,

I flew yesterday from Amsterdam to Cairo, with KLM, on a 747-400 Combi. 280 passengers and cargo. Full flight. I was surprised to be on board this magnificant bird, expecting a 737-800/900 probably.

It made me think; is this trip, duration 3:55 hrs, a suitable one for the 747? I have no clue about operating costs, but I would think that they are higher than those of a 737. So real money making on long flights, not the short ones. The return flight is on a 777-200.

One think I can think of, giving the fact the flight before this one was somewhere from Asia into Amsterdam, they prefer to have the 747 flying overnight in stead of it standing at the apron waiting for the next long-haul. It is the scheduled plane for this leg.

Can someone help me to put this in perspective? BTW, it is Amsterdam - Cairo - Amsterdam.

THanks

Maurice

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8089 times:

Well, if the flight is full, it makes sense to use a 747 even on short flights. I imagine CAI is a rather high-yield route for both pax and cargo.

Quoting Singel09 (Thread starter):
I have no clue about operating costs, but I would think that they are higher than those of a 737.

Of course they're much higher. But look at it this way: a 744 Combi can carry some 80% more pax and at least 1000% more cargo than a 738.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8024 times:

Yeah, using these aircraft on short sectors can be a headache for two reasons. First, you're right, operating costs are higher. Second, it adds cycles to an aircraft that is typically associated with high numbers of HOURS, rather than CYCLES.

The first fact is negated IF you can fill the plane, obviously. And in being a combi, you give yourself a lot of leeway with passenger numbers. Delta Airlines made $1 million in revenue in the first month of their Bejing (or was it Shanghai) last month.... from CARGO ALONE. In the belly. Now imagine KL flying a couple of 20-footers in the back of the main deck on a combi, and you can get the idea.

The second fact is somethign that KL has apparently chosen to live with. 4 hours isn't THAT short. If they were flying AMS to Luxembourg, that would probably wreck things.
It's a lesson the US carriers learned in the 1970's: 747 flights from Chicago to Dallas don't make sense even if the aircraft is full. The bird eats you out of house and home. But JFK to LAX is better.

Hope that helps answer your question!


User currently offlineTUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1844 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8008 times:

Nothing surprising here. LX frequently uses an A340 to CAI & TLV from ZRH.


Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
User currently offlineUS330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7900 times:

Not that surprising. KLM has routinely used widebody aircraft on the route for quite a while. About two years ago, when I flew them to CAI, I was on a 777 both ways, and on both flights, the plane was packed.

User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7832 times:

BA run a 747-400 down to Cairo daily from Heathrow. It is the only way to do it to get that number of passengers on an aircraft. This sort of route has lots of flexibility for use of aircraft due to range not being a factor. BMI run an A320 down there from LHR.

User currently offlineJBH From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7608 times:

I flew an LH A343 the other day from CAI to FRA. It was completely full and prices were not low. I have also flown an LH 744 to TLV a while back. Seems to make sense comercially, otherwise these companies wouldn't fly these.

User currently onlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6387 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7595 times:

SQ uses 777's for 1 hour flights in Asia all the time...

I was rather suprised when I flew SIN-PEN on SQ how much cargo gets loaded up in the belly for these flights, too.

Also in Asia, you have NH and JL flying similar short sectors on 744D's and 777's.

I also flew a 3.5 hour 744 segment (although it was just a pax version): SQ1 HKG-SIN. And every seat was filled in economy for that  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7595 times:

LH flies 2 A300s everyday to Cairo from Frankfurt - seating 217 passengers EACH. That's a daily offer of 434 seats out of which 108 are premium seats. This is equivalent to pretty much a high density B744 used on the route. This just to show that Cairo is quite the high yielding route - justifying the seat offers by European airlines.

The route used to operated with 2 LH A333s everyday, but these birds were taken out of the Cairo route and put on longer range routes ... replacing them were the older refurbished A300s in a transcontinental configuration. This is a temporary arrangement though until LH gets more A333 metals so as to redispatch them on the likes of Cairo, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Almaty and all those destinations presently served by the transcontinental A300s.

LH also operates an MD-11 Cargo on the Cairo route I believe once weekly, however I could be wrong with the frequency!

Cheers!


User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 7397 times:
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LH Cargo does indeed operate a weekly MD-11F flight to CAI. This flight is pretty full as are the 2 daily A300 flights to CAI.
As stated earlier LH will be using a A333 as soon they become available to CAI again.
Cairo is a big middle-eastarn/african destination for a lot of airlines.
I am not suprised at all that large aircraft from various airlines operate the route . Egyptair operates quite a number european flights with large aircraft.

Quoting JBH (Reply 6):

LH still uses a B744 to TLV as well as a A343/6 to TLV daily and the pax numbers on these flights are also very good.
I believe, correct me if I am worng, that LH is the number 1 foreign carrier to TLV.



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7366 times:



Quoting Singel09 (Thread starter):
I was surprised to be on board this magnificant bird, expecting a 737-800/900 probably.

Quite often an M11. Indeed, I have flown KL M11 AMS-CAI-AMS. Moreover, the last time I was in CAI I saw a KL M11.

Have also flown BA 744 LHR-CAI-LHR. BA used to operate the 744 during the high season and 772 during the low, but it looks like it's the 744 year-round now.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7338 times:

AF uses also wodebodies on CDG-CAI (744 / 332 / 777)

User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7136 times:
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Go to Japan, and you will see plenty of Wide bodies on domestic flights.

User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2682 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6926 times:



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 11):
AF uses also wodebodies on CDG-CAI (744 / 332 / 777)

I didn't know that AF still uses 744s to Cairo



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6883 times:

Guys another factor.

How many of these PAX on this route are connecting to other long haul flights, to the Americas and possibly even Asia? I can see a very good business case for running widebody aircraft and selling Club world, business etc 100% of the way to places like TLV and CAI.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6851 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 14):
How many of these PAX on this route are connecting to other long haul flights, to the Americas and possibly even Asia?

A lot, that's why the CAI flights operate at such crazy times (departing CAI at 03:55 and arriving at AMS at 07:35, the outbound flight leaves AMS at 20:45 and arrives at CAI at 02:00)



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineMrBrightSide From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 202 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6062 times:

Oddly that nobody mentions hourly flights TPE-HKG on CX, CI - all in A330, B744, B777. 1hr20min flight, usually filled with pax to the max.

Also, on CI you can witness fastest boarding of any airlines - in history of B744: gates open 15min prior to departure (I was shocked when I first saw that - 20min before departure boarding gates were closed... I thought I was late  Wink )... happened with both CX and CI.

B744 on 1hr route... if any of you want to experience Boeing 747, head for short Asian trips... even managed to be in SQ B744 doing SIN-KUL (I thought it would be B738 or A320 nb, but when I saw seat 44A, something lit in my head :P

For Americans that only experienced domestic travel, interesting bit is that you get a full meal on a 1hr flight, regardless of being F, J or Y.  Smile



There's no better way to travel than fly (shameless rip of LH's slogan ;-)
User currently offlineAUA747 From Aruba, joined Jul 2006, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6050 times:

Sometimes KL uses it A330 on AMS-LHR as well. On this route is premium pax that covers the ops. cost.

User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6011 times:

Although CAI might be a relatively short hop for a 747, it could be used to CAI because theres a high amount of traffic/cargo, and it might keep utilisation high, instead of having the a/c on the ground. EI does this with its 330's by sending them to AGP

User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5906 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
Second, it adds cycles to an aircraft that is typically associated with high numbers of HOURS, rather than CYCLES.

Perhaps it is beneficial then for KLM to cycle their 747's on some short hops to reduce hours and build cycles..... thus getting more out of them


User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 596 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

Why does the BA flight have an 8 hour layover in CAI - Arrives 00:25 and departs 08:35????

User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5680 times:



Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 20):
Why does the BA flight have an 8 hour layover in CAI - Arrives 00:25 and departs 08:35????

Because they don't want to leave CAI at 2am and land at LHR AT 5.30am.....

Ie the market prefers an early morning departure than a red eye.


User currently offlineMSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5348 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 20):
Why does the BA flight have an 8 hour layover in CAI - Arrives 00:25 and departs 08:35????

For maximum connectivity to North American destinations out of LHR .

KLM never used a single aisle A/C on its route to CAI , it has always been : MD11,B767,B747 and sometimes B777 . Not only KLM , all major European carriers fly widebodies to CAI :
LX:A340
AF:A330
BA:747/777
LH:A300 (used to be a mix of A340/A330)

And those who don't fly widebodies to CAI , either fly daily (OS,OA) or triple daily (AZ) .

A lot of pax using European carriers to connect to mainly N.America , Europe and Asia .

HB-IWC had an extensive and very informative thread about the use of KLM's long-haul A/C .

[Edited 2008-04-22 07:01:48]


A346,A343,A342,A332,A333,A310,A300,AB6,A319,A320,A321,B741,B744,B777,B767,B732,B735,B727,B707,B757,MD80,F-70,E-170,B738
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5118 times:



Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 22):
, all major European carriers fly widebodies to CAI :
LX:A340
AF:A330
BA:747/777
LH:A300 (used to be a mix of A340/A330)

Not all major European carriers fly widebodies to CAI:

AZ is still a major European airline, but flies 320s/321s.

IB is a major European airline, but flies 320s.

Some smaller European airlines that use single asle aircraft to CAI:

OA use 734s.

A3 use 737s/AR1s (only AR1s scheduled come June/July).

OK 320s (last time I went to CAI I flew OK).

RO use 737s.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineMSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5087 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 23):
Not all major European carriers fly widebodies to CAI:

AZ is still a major European airline, but flies 320s/321s.

IB is a major European airline, but flies 320s.

Some smaller European airlines that use single asle aircraft to CAI:

OA use 734s.

A3 use 737s/AR1s (only AR1s scheduled come June/July).

OK 320s (last time I went to CAI I flew OK).

RO use 737s.



Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 22):
And those who don't fly widebodies to CAI , either fly daily (OS,OA) or triple daily (AZ) .




A346,A343,A342,A332,A333,A310,A300,AB6,A319,A320,A321,B741,B744,B777,B767,B732,B735,B727,B707,B757,MD80,F-70,E-170,B738
25 Pe@rson : I see you edited your reply. Probably do add that bit about OA/OS/AZ.
26 JRadier : He posted the edit at 1 minute past the hour, your reply was posted at 9 minutes past the same hour.
27 MSYYZ : No i edited my reply to fix a grammatical error I know that a lot of European carriers would love to go double daily to CAI ( a la LH ) not necessari
28 Pe@rson : No need to get technical.
29 Post contains links MSYYZ : There you go : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/2903482 http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read
30 Singel09 : thanks for all the feedback! appreciate it Maurice
31 Goldorak : not anymore but they used 744 on this route before
32 Msyyz : AF uses A330 on their 10 weekly flights to Cairo .
33 TreeHillRavens : Should be no problem as long as the load (for both pax and cargo) is good. SQ is flying their 744 between SIN/BKK which is a 2 hours 25 minutes route
34 TUNisia : Malev also services CAI with the 73
35 BA : AF flies the 773ER on CDG-BEY which is also a 4 hour flight. It comes down to high passenger and cargo demand. I've flown BA on LHR-CAI-LHR a number o
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