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How Well New US Carriers Doing In LHR?  
User currently offlineDintz From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

Hey, Does anyone know how well the new US carriers (DL, NW, CO, US) are performing in LHR? Are they able to fill up all those flights?

I have to imagine with DL, CO, BA, VS, AA all serving the JFK/EWR - LHR market that all those aircraft can't be filled up daily.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4021 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

Why is this such a big deal? All these carriers served London before, just from Gatwick. I can't imagine things would really change all that much as far as loads go just by switching airports. The only NEW route that is coming from this so far by a US carrier is SEA-LHR by NWA which starts June 1.



AZJ


User currently offlineDintz From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6740 times:

What about AF trying to fill up a 777 on the LHR-LAX route. anyone know how well that is going? or if that is having any impact on VS and BA?

User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6713 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 1):
Why is this such a big deal?

Who's saying it's a big deal?


User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6715 times:

I dont believe it is doing well, I was looking at Delta business class flights to LHR in June and the price is $2400

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6684 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 1):
Why is this such a big deal? All these carriers served London before, just from Gatwick. I can't imagine things would really change all that much as far as loads go just by switching airports. The only NEW route that is coming from this so far by a US carrier is SEA-LHR by NWA which starts June 1.

Its a big deal in that the US carriers, have lobbied for decades to have the opportunity to fly into LHR instead of LGW; and have been prepared to pay many millions for poorly timed LHR slots, now that they are able to do so. If the airlines concerned didn't think it was "a big deal" they would have stuck with their free slots at LGW


User currently offlineDintz From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6648 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 4):

wow, I assumed the increase in carriers would have to have some sort of impact. I think DL and CO trying to compete with the multitude of AA, VS, and BA flights serving LHR-NYC is going to prove to be difficult and take time for the two airlines to build up a market on these routes.

The products, especially J Class, offered on BA and VS are far superior to any other carrier on this route and i feel like the business traveler is the one who frequents this route the most often. I think DL has the right idea with its new flat bed seats, but CO is lacking. And I mean, products are going to play a significant role in a competitive market like this


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4021 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6648 times:

Yes, I realize what a BIG DEAL it is to the US carriers, who now get to fly to LHR. My question is why there is so much discussion as to how the loads are for these new carriers to LHR? There are multiple threads fo this very discussion. Why? I dunno. They all flew to LGW for YEARS prior to being able to serve LHR. So it's not as if these airlines are new to the London market. It's simply a switch to an arguably more desireable airport. There is probably very little change as far as loads go and for the average traveler, they probably don't even realize NW, DL, CO and US never served LHR before March 29.

AZJ


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6531 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6634 times:



Quoting Dintz (Thread starter):
Hey, Does anyone know how well the new US carriers (DL, NW, CO, US) are performing in LHR? Are they able to fill up all those flights?

You are aware that the carriers you mentioned above all have been serving London for years except it was to LGW, where they all did fairly well. Flying to LHR would give them additional passengers at better yields. Load factors for their LGW service was in the 80% range. So their loads to LHR should be even better. As AZJ mentioned there is no new service currently being flown to LHR that wasn't previously flown to LGW. SEA-LHR will be new when it starts.


User currently offlineDintz From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6619 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
You are aware that the carriers you mentioned above all have been serving London for years except it was to LGW, where they all did fairly well.

I never said otherwise and yes I am completely aware of this, haha. I was simply wondering if the increase in US carriers @ LHR would make it more difficult for all these flights to fill up and some of the new airlines @ LHR have chosen to keep their LGW routes but just revert to smaller aircraft, what market are they hoping to maintain in LGW? what is the point of that? and does anyone know, with these new time slots awarded to DL, NW, US, CO how they are performing in terms of departure/arrival delays, etc?


User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6553 times:



Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3):
Who's saying it's a big deal?

The fact that people keep on making posts and writing on it might be one indication...


User currently offlineJustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1065 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6475 times:

CO said on its

Quoting Dintz (Reply 6):
The products, especially J Class, offered on BA and VS are far superior to any other carrier on this route and i feel like the business traveler is the one who frequents this route the most often. I think DL has the right idea with its new flat bed seats, but CO is lacking.

FYI CO is MORE than competitive in J class. The below survey is one of the oldest and widely read:

http://www.oag.com/oagcorporate/#

CO has won best J class in this survey 5 years running, and this is a UK based company, and yes this survey includes BA, VS, SQ, EK, QR and anyone else. Rating airlines is still very subjective and how you weight certain aspects of the product affects your ranking. There is a lot to frequent business travelers that CO does well that ranks it high in this and other surveys. It can be argued a different set of weights would lead to a different winner, but to say CO is not competitive is not factual.

On loads, CO's conference call had the CEO state they are pleased with LHR. This is to be expected, CO is the most entrenched airline in NYC and has the biggest route structure to the US of any carrier from NYC. It paid for and got, decent slots at LHR. It has a competitive (and historically superior) product with a strategically superior position on the route of any US carrier, so over time, expect AA to lose ground to CO at LHR. That's just way it is, CO has al those financial services FF's and don't expect CO to drop it's service level to lose them. Expect BA to lose a little steam too, they've never had a leading US hub competitor out of LHR.

All just a matter of time IMHO, and this is why CO shelled out the bucks for as many slots at LHR as they can get their hands on. They have 5 and are looking for more. They'd be missing out if they didn't, they just happen to have a great situation for the route.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6435 times:



Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 11):
CO has won best J class in this survey 5 years running, and this is a UK based company, and yes this survey includes BA, VS, SQ, EK, QR and anyone else.

Here's the problem, though: it's great that Continental's BusinessFirst J product is so nice, but it's now directly up against full-service First Class products offered by AA, BA and United, whereas before it wasn't.

So sure, Continental can offer customers a great product in J, but those same customers could get an even better product with AA, BA or UA in F.

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 11):
It has a competitive (and historically superior) product with a strategically superior position on the route of any US carrier, so over time, expect AA to lose ground to CO at LHR

AA won't be losing anything to CO.

AA still have five daily 777s to JFK from LHR, to say nothing of their other 13 other daily flights out of Heathrow. I doubt AA is all that worried.


User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6304 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
Here's the problem, though: it's great that Continental's BusinessFirst J product is so nice, but it's now directly up against full-service First Class products offered by AA, BA and United, whereas before it wasn't.

So sure, Continental can offer customers a great product in J, but those same customers could get an even better product with AA, BA or UA in F.

CO was always up against AA, BA, and UA....it still served London, just from a different airport only 30 miles away. Just because you live in or around London, does not mean you have to use Heathrow!


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6305 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
So sure, Continental can offer customers a great product in J, but those same customers could get an even better product with AA, BA or UA in F.

Good point, but how many of those customers, or their employers, are willing to pay for F over J? Probably not too many. CO will do well, due to their vast quantity of corporate deals out of NY. A little bird tells me that there's the possibility of more frequencies LHR-EWR on CO, as soon as slots are obtained. Also, the 767-200ER's operating to LHR will be replaced with the 787's when they come online.

Looking at the recent cargo stats, CO's top-performing cargo flights are now CO29 LHR-EWR, CO5 LHR-IAH and CO8 NRT-EWR. Not bad, for a station that's been running for 24 days.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6302 times:



Quoting 8herveg (Reply 13):
CO was always up against AA, BA, and UA....it still served London, just from a different airport only 30 miles away. Just because you live in or around London, does not mean you have to use Heathrow!

They were never competing head-to-head at Heathrow up against other airlines with a true First Class product. Heathrow is not the same market as Gatwick.

BusinessFirst is great, but it's not First Class.


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6258 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
They were never competing head-to-head at Heathrow up against other airlines with a true First Class product. Heathrow is not the same market as Gatwick.

That's my point. BusinessFirst is a J class product, not a F product. They compete J for J, not J versus F. Corporate clients tend to go for commercial deals in J, not F. (Although not set in stone, of course.)


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6254 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 16):
They compete J for J, not J versus F. Corporate clients tend to go for commercial deals in J, not F. (Although not set in stone, of course.)

Not in the New York-London market, which is one of the few left on earth where many, many corporate clients still very much demand F.


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6220 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
Not in the New York-London market, which is one of the few left on earth where many, many corporate clients still very much demand F.

....but many, many more demand J. Also, for companies downgrading their travel budgets from F to J, CO can be a good option. DL too, with their new J class. CO definitely needs new, flat-bed seats though.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6156 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 18):
....but many, many more demand J.

Maybe for CO, since they have had no other choice. AA and BA see enormous corporate demand for F on the JFK-LHR route.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 18):
Also, for companies downgrading their travel budgets from F to J, CO can be a good option. DL too, with their new J class. CO definitely needs new, flat-bed seats though.

AA also has a new J product that is - at least on a seat basis - quite competitive with CO's J seat. And again, AA can offer customers a fully-flat bed, plus even higher levels of service, in F.


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6102 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
AA also has a new J product that is - at least on a seat basis - quite competitive with CO's J seat. And again, AA can offer customers a fully-flat bed, plus even higher levels of service, in F.

I think we're comparing apples with oranges. CO J doesn't purport to be a be a F class product. My point is, CO J is comparable to the likes of pretty much everyone else in the market. Remember, whilst the seat is probably the most tangible product, it's not all that makes-up a J class product. Having spent 13 years at AA, and 4 at BA, I can understand where you're coming from, but honestly, there's a reason BA and other carriers fly large J class cabins to NYC and not large F class cabins.

If you've flown AA F and CO J, you'll know that apart from the seat, CO J delivers a superior service style and product to AA F and their meal service is substantially better that BA J too. BA focuses on the seat, CO focuses on the service.


User currently offlineMAN23R From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

after 20 replies still no firm figures....someone must know, this is A.NET! Big grin

User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6025 times:



Quoting MAN23R (Reply 21):
after 20 replies still no firm figures....someone must know, this is A.NET!

Well, if you want figures, all 4 of CO's services this coming weekend (Fri/Sat/Sun) are booked to around 105%. That drops on Monday to around 75%.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5992 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 20):
CO J doesn't purport to be a be a F class product. My point is, CO J is comparable to the likes of pretty much everyone else in the market.

Right, and my point is that that sort of comparison is a bit disingenuous since in this market you can't simply look across the J products without taking account of the F products - of which there are many, almost all of which are superior to Continental's BusinessFirst.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 20):
If you've flown AA F and CO J, you'll know that apart from the seat, CO J delivers a superior service style and product to AA F and their meal service is substantially better that BA J too. BA focuses on the seat, CO focuses on the service.

I strongly disagree.

CO J is no doubt a fantastic product, but I absolutely do not "know" or agree at all that it is superior to AA's Flagship Suite F product, nor BA's premium products, either.


User currently offlineMAN23R From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5973 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 22):
Quoting MAN23R (Reply 21):
after 20 replies still no firm figures....someone must know, this is A.NET!

Well, if you want figures, all 4 of CO's services this coming weekend (Fri/Sat/Sun) are booked to around 105%. That drops on Monday to around 75%

thankyou, exactly what i wanted,


scott


25 CO777ER : Easiest thing to do is go to seatcounter.com and check a given flight number. It will tell you how many open seats there are.
26 8herveg : Why don't they replace the 767 services to 777's?
27 LHR777 : So, have you honestly flown both then, to be able to make the comparison? I have, to the tune of some 750,000 revenue miles (as a paying customer), p
28 Panamair : They (westbound transatlantic) are all heavily booked this weekend actually...in fact, most Europe-US flights on just about any airline this weekend
29 CXA330300 : While they see a lot of demand for F, they make a lot more money on J-the corporations get HUGE discounts on the contracts, especially for F. I don't
30 Commavia : Indeed I have, repeatedly. I, too, look at the "overall product," and can "honestly say" that I in know way would ever put Continental's BusinessFirs
31 FLVILLA : I also would like to know how the new US entrants at LHR are fairing, I can see things hotting up fairly soon for some of them. Will certainly be inte
32 LHR777 : Who said CO's J competes with other airlines F products? Oh, you did. I give up. I honestly do not understand your own contradictions. Sorry! I just
33 Dc-9-10 : I for one see where the original poster is coming from. Rarely are product substitutes a simple one to one comparison, there are several factors that
34 Viscount724 : How can one airline's F cabin be a "direct response" to another airline's J cabin? You're comparing two different products. one priced several thousa
35 Commavia : And I honestly do not understand how this is so difficult to understand. CO J competes with AA J + AA F + BA J + BA F + VS J + DL J + etc. etc. etc.
36 LHR777 : Ooh, young man, you've put me in my place!! My point exactly, which Commavia fails to understand. Thank you.
37 Dintz : Can we please go back to the topic of this thread quickly. Does anyone know if the prices are beginning to be altered due to the increase in competiti
38 ARGinLON : OK. and what about travel policies at corporate level?
39 ItsASmallWorld : Sorry OP.... it looks like you've been thread jacked.
40 Reltney : I am a Delta pilot and just went to LHR for vacation(holiday for you brits) the 8th and returned the 17th. The plane was 75% full to LHR and +85% on t
41 MasseyBrown : During the AMR earnings conference, AMR (or AA, if you prefer) mentioned that the new competition has had some effect on their LHR traffic. They brush
42 CV990Coronado : UA AA DL US NW have had some crazy specials in the past 10 days GBP110 plus taxes/fuel surcharges to the West coast from London and as far as I can se
43 Dintz : Are there any BA or VS pilots/employees/experts who can comment on the reaction and impact of this first month of Open Skies on the British carriers c
44 LHR777 : BA - markets continue to do well on North Atlantic, particularly J class to JFK/ORD/LAX. Loads have been down in the past two weeks, but all transatl
45 BAStew : J anf F class loads on BA on the LHR-JFK/EWR has seen no real change, it continues to perform strongly. Corporate accounts on these routes are the 'br
46 NYCAAer : I can concur with BAStew about most of the passengers in J and F not eating on the overnight flights JFK-LHR. I just came back to JFK from LHR last ni
47 LHR777 : Meaning AA uses F as a loyalty tool, but not as a revenue tool.
48 Commavia : It serves as both. In the markets where AA offers F, it is very much a revenue - and profit - tool. Contrary to what some believe, it actually is pos
49 NYCAAer : No, not necessarily. There are also what we as F/As call "FFFs" in the F cabin, meaning "Full Fare First" class passengers. They are fewer in number,
50 LHR777 : Sorry, what's your point? I'm well aware that F sells very well, on certain carriers. BA, for example, does a great job selling full-fare F. AA, not
51 Travelin man : Well, except when the traveler has a choice between purchasing AA J and CO J in that situation, it incents them to buy the AA J class ticket. So, in
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