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EU OPS Bans DC3 Pax Flights In Europe  
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2461 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8494 times:

Just got the April issue of Airliner World. In the editorial, it mentions that the EU have banned DC3's from flying pax unless upgrades are done to comply with regulations for 19+ seaters. This is the fitting of CVR's, weather radar, a lockable door to the cockpit, escape slides and emergency lighting.

Air Atlantique of CVT, Europes largest operator of they type said these upgrades would cost GBP 250,000 per aircraft and that is not financially viable. For example, weather radar would require a redesign of the nose and a CVR wouldnt work due to the ambient noise. While all European operators will be effected, even though many just fly enthusiasts, the UK CAA has offered Air Atlantique assistance to keep the fleet operational, it would seem through loopholes in legislation rather than financially. Meanwhile the JU52's are unaffected as they carry less than 19 pax.

So what do you all think?? While we know the DC3 does not have a stellar safety record, mostly due to the conditions operated in, does this seem absurd after 70 years?? The biggest percentage of pax flying on these birds are going to be enthusiasts who will willingly accept any 'risks' and these are hardly commerical passenger flights.


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17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8480 times:

Hmm, can the DC-3s be reconfigured to hold less than 19 seats and therefore get around the requirements?

User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4897 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8444 times:



Quoting YVRLTN (Thread starter):
escape slides

 rotfl 

Good o'le EU. Like the 13-year-old armchair know-it-alls, this is pure hogwash.

How many seats are in those DC-3's anyway? Could they just be configured to 1-1 seating if not already?



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8415 times:



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 2):
How many seats are in those DC-3's anyway

30 for G-AMRA with Air Atlantique. DDA have 25 in PH-DDZ but only 8 is PH-PBA. Flygande Veteraner have 19 in SE-CFP. Dakota Norway have 19 in LN-WND. Just a few examples.



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User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1909 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8347 times:

OK...This has also been well covered in Propliner Mag too, but my question is, what exactly defines the boundaries of the EU ban? Does the CAA in the UK follow the same rules as Continental Europe? What about countries in Europe that are NOT in the EU?

User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8283 times:

There is some uncertainty if this affects only commercial operation. There are several non-profit associations (Flygande Veteran, Finnish DC-Association) that are not flying commercially, but just their members. It is a bit unclear if they can keep on flying their members as they have been doing so far.

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8233 times:



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 2):
How many seats are in those DC-3's anyway?

21 when configured as Donald Douglas intended...or 14 sleeper berths as the DST (Douglas Sleeper Transport)  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineLarSPL From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7943 times:

Lets start with that this has already been discussed.
Lets continue with saying that the new eu-ops rules are not designed to stop dc3 flights..


Air Atlantique has been flying with a lot of exemptions on their AOC to fly DC3.
Exemptions are harder to get under eu-ops since you have to run every request through the Easa instead of your local CAA.
A.A. has a lot of exemptions not really necessary for flying the DC3. for example: a weather radar. The Dutch Dakota Association does not need a weather radar or exemption for that since our manual states: do not fly when convective weather is expected thus nothing to see on your not installed weather radar.
slides are not necessary for exits under 1.7mtr (or something in that region of meters). the main entrance is under, the overwings are not,.. but the edge of the wing is.. so still no problem.
the only exit above is the little cockpit door, but you dont need that as an passenger emergency exit so no slides needed on a dc3.

At the moment the dutch CAA has no application forms for an AOC under EU-OPS yet. So no way to request such an AOC and until you have one of those you can continue under your local AOC.

the Dutch Dakota Association (DDA or DDA classic airlines) does not foresee any problems for their operation under eu-ops yet.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 3):
30 for G-AMRA with Air Atlantique. DDA have 25 in PH-DDZ but only 8 is PH-PBA. Flygande Veteraner have 19 in SE-CFP. Dakota Norway have 19 in LN-WND. Just a few examples.

the PH-PBA seats 18 instead of 8.

[Edited 2008-04-23 02:37:19]


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User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7868 times:



Quoting YVRLTN (Thread starter):
it mentions that the EU have banned DC3's from flying pax unless upgrades are done to comply with regulations for 19+ seaters.

If stupidity hurts Brussels and the EU is the loudest place on earth.

Is there nothing else to care about.

From when will the No-Fly Regulation be?  Smile


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7831 times:

This will not affect the Berlin Air Service Dc 3 (D-CXXX) flying from Tempelhof, two weeks ago I had the oppurtunity of a flight with this aircraft and I had a long talk with the Captain about the future of Tempelhof and the Dc 3.
If Tempelhof is closed they plan to continue this flights from Schönefeld, just last year the Dc 3 was equiped with illuminate stripes which costed 50. 000 Dollars which he thought would be waste of money as they harldy earn any moneyas it is and these stripes are not needed in such a small aircraft ("This is not an A380").



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineGabo787 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7729 times:

In todays local newspaper The Yorkshire Post, there's an add called goodbye Dakota offering 30 minutes block to block flight for £99 per person, the flights will be on the 11 of July and it says that the last flight of the Dakota in the UK will be on the 15 of July.

A sad day indeed


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7629 times:

This is absolutely ridiculous. A typical EU nonsense. They want to regulate anything which is not necessary. Such things I really hate at the EU and I am glad that we are not member (although this regulation will also have effect on Switzerland). DC 3 flights in Europe are not scheduled passengers flights but only old-timer fun flights with people who absolutely know what they are doing. I suggest ban the EU functionaries from regulating every fart any citizen loses.

User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7553 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
Hmm, can the DC-3s be reconfigured to hold less than 19 seats and therefore get around the requirements?



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 2):
How many seats are in those DC-3's anyway? Could they just be configured to 1-1 seating if not already?

Apparently not. From what I read somehwere else, the ban affects any aircraft that has the ability to hold more than 19 seats, no matter how it's configured Sad


User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1909 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7364 times:

So, there are lot's of conflicting responses on this thread...As far as the seating is concerned, with the FAA in the U.S., if you reduce seating to circumvent certain regulations, then you have to recertify the a/c accordingly and cannot add seats back to the aircraft, without recertifying again. In the past, this was not necessary, but it seems that after 9/11, the regulations became a lot tougher on these rulings. Obviously, the CAA and the EU work differently.

Air Atlantique is offering the final DC-3 flights in July, so something bad is on the horizon. From a financial standpoint, assuming that A.A. can reduce their seating to 19, it is possible that the increased seat costs (with the lower seat count) will deter many of the potential passengers from flying. Just my guess...


User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7346 times:



Quoting BigOrange (Reply 12):

Apparently not. From what I read somehwere else, the ban affects any aircraft that has the ability to hold more than 19 seats, no matter how it's configured Sad

That is right. This regulation does not affect only DC-3s, but any plane that was designed to hold more than 19 seats for passengers.


User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7226 times:

Sad news really. Once again the EU show themselves to be the money wasting organistion that they are and passing stupid rules and regulations.

User currently offlineACW367 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7114 times:

Can the DC3s in Europe be transferred on the N- register (or other non-EU register) to get round this, or is it the country that issues the AOC that is the deciding factor here. Can they be operated under the AOC of a non-EU airline whilst operating in Europe.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25288 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6979 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 2):
How many seats are in those DC-3's anyway?

21 when configured as Donald Douglas intended...or 14 sleeper berths as the DST (Douglas Sleeper Transport)

Most DC-3s were later converted from the original 3-abreast 2-1 seating to 4-abreast 2-2 with 28 seats and occasionally more. British European Airways' DC-3s had 32 seats.


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