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Feds Want Visitors' Fingerprints When Leaving US.  
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Oh goody another fee for the airlines to pay, hmmm maybe the airlines can charge a fingerprint identification fee.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080422/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/border_security


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVtdl From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3370 times:

No wonder tourism in the U.S. continues going down.

A better solution is to issue secure biometric ID card when they enter the country (scan and store finger print), then collect the card when they leave (scan and compare).


User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Another nail in the coffin of travel. Every day, I hear negative comments about the US VISIT program from passengers who are fed up with rule after rule and security check after security check. Unfortunately, the US gov. seems to be oblivious to the fact that the country is in a recession and that incentives to come need to be given and not taken away.

Its only a matter of time until the country implodes in on itself. You cannot brand yourself as a hub of global business and then have so many restrictions that make it impossible to do that business.

I'm guessing that these restrictions if implemented will cause carriers that offer minimal US service to abandon it all together. I cannot see the likes of OK, TG or OA pouring the money into the technology for one or two flights a day.

Ultimately though, lets see if this is a rumour or reality, and what the actual implementation would look like. I have a feeling that hopefully this would be shot down before it became law.



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3314 times:

Maybe the US can pony up and do what almost every industrialized country does have have emigration checks.

You know, where by someone goes up to a desk, is face to face with an officer, hands back his I94 card and maybe even gets an exit stamp.

It doesn't need to be as complicated as forcing people to give fingerprints (which has been proven time and time again as unpopular. Call people crazy, but some just don't like handing over their unique biological traits to a government) and such. Really, increase the immigration tax by a few dollars and start having emigration services at each gateway.

That would not only be an acceptable compromise to international visitors but also close any loopholes that exist in the system.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineScandinA340 From Australia, joined Apr 2004, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

LH423, last time I checked your home country (judging by your profile!) of Canada didn't do emigration checks either!

ScandinA340


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3214 times:



Quoting Vtdl (Reply 1):
No wonder tourism in the U.S. continues going down.

Well, in reality it continues to rise, not go down. But whatever you want to believe must be true. That's the new mantra in the 21st century.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

What I find absolutely insane about the whole idea is how are the airlines supposed to implement this? Most US carriers use common gates for both international and domestic departures. Are the feds going to install fingerprint scanners at every gate in the US?, are they going to make gate agents into fingerprint technicians now? I mean its not rocket science to take a good set of prints but still its one more thing.

I'm all for the US checking people in and out of this country, I firmly believe that the US and every sovereign nation in the world should have the right to say who enters their territory however there has to be a better way to do this then to simply saddle the airlines with one more thing.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

I strongly suspect that the incoming administration, either Dem or Rep will be much more traveller and visitor friendly. Not sure what bandwagon Bennie Thompson (D-Miss) is climbing on though.


I see exit fingerprinting at somewhat pointless and expensive. You can't just do airports, it would have to be borders too, which means building new exit points. And you'd better make sure people know they have to get processed. Not much point in realising you've just crossed into Canada and didn't get your goodbye stamp.

Ultimately it's your country, and your choice. But with the $ being the exchange rate it is, and your stuff cheap as heck anyway, I'm still coming...... yeh baby... viva Las Vegas!!!!!! (Apologies, I'm just exited about my summer holiday!!)  hyper 



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1414 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

UGH....They make it a nightmare to get into the country and now they want to make it equally has hard to leave! When will the paranoia stop?

Did they not try something similar over the last few years where we had to scan our passports on departure and give our fingerprints again? If I remember correctly it did not work and they removed the machines after spending millions of taxpayers money on them!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3033 times:



Quoting LH423 (Reply 3):
Maybe the US can pony up and do what almost every industrialized country does have have emigration checks.

You know, where by someone goes up to a desk, is face to face with an officer, hands back his I94 card and maybe even gets an exit stamp.

It doesn't need to be as complicated as forcing people to give fingerprints (which has been proven time and time again as unpopular. Call people crazy, but some just don't like handing over their unique biological traits to a government) and such. Really, increase the immigration tax by a few dollars and start having emigration services at each gateway.

That would not only be an acceptable compromise to international visitors but also close any loopholes that exist in the system.

LH423

I completely agree. All this ridiculous security issues could be solved if the US just implemented International Terminals for ALL departing and arriving international flights and introduce outbound customs. If there is outbound customs and outbound stamps introduced, then the issue of determining if people overstay their visa would be non-existent. Yes it would cost billions in the long run, but efficiency and security would be streamlined and it would be a hell of a lot easier for both US citizens and non-US citizens. Can you imagine the Duty free available at such airports?


User currently offlineLHRBlueSkies From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 493 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3027 times:



Quoting LH423 (Reply 3):
That would not only be an acceptable compromise to international visitors but also close any loopholes that exist in the system.

This should happen in all countries, but governments believe technology is the answer to everything, and that humans are too expensive.

Unless their is a mind-set change in their approach to the rest of the world, the US governments will continue to introduce such systems which only make people view them in an ever-more negative way.



flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
User currently offlineCaspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2936 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
What I find absolutely insane about the whole idea is how are the airlines supposed to implement this? Most US carriers use common gates for both international and domestic departures. Are the feds going to install fingerprint scanners at every gate in the US?, are they going to make gate agents into fingerprint technicians now? I mean its not rocket science to take a good set of prints but still its one more thing.

You are right on track. Do you really think the fingerprinting will be only for foreigners that leave the country? That's only the first step. Second step is that every passenger has to give his fingerprints. Third step will be domestic visas. You want to visit your relatives who live in a different US state? Get a visa!

The US can do whatever they want to control their borders but it is maybe wise to think about possible consequences in doing so. After the Iraq war I get the feeling the US government is not very good in thinking its actions through.


User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2927 times:



Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 12):
Do you really think the fingerprinting will be only for foreigners that leave the country? That's only the first step. Second step is that every passenger has to give his fingerprints. Third step will be domestic visas. You want to visit your relatives who live in a different US state? Get a visa!

I can see the second step coming... maybe even in connection with air travel preclearance, if the TSA gets its way... but domestic visas would cause a revolution, methinks...



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2861 times:



Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 12):
After the Iraq war I get the feeling the US government is not very good in thinking its actions through

The Bush Administration is not very good in thinking its actions through. The US government is more than capable of doing so, but are ruled by an idiot of a President. Hopefully this will change if Hilary or Obama get in.


User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 526 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

And the other side of the coin...

There is, in addition to an concern of security, the fact that the US has a major problem with illegal immigration. This poses issues all around the industrialized world where people come from one land to another looking for oppertunity. While there is a process of integration and naturalization, oftem people would rather circumvent it due to it not being convenient at the time, or risk of rejection.
When you apply for residency, the US Government is tasked with ensuring that criminals and people losely connected to criminals are kept out (Asylum is a different case). There is also a drug issue that the Americans are attempting to get control of, and since alot of drugs come from international supply chains, guess what...people have to clear this too. International arms...you got it. All of these issues have a strong guilt-by-assocoation factor which prospective residents and visitors need to contend with.
How can a land like the US seperate the clean illegal entrats with the bad illegal intrants? Lets throw in the forged documents factor now. Keep in mind that for the right price, anybody can get a fake passport. For a few bucks more, a good fake passport, and for yet a few bucks more...a whole new identity.
It is a risk. Biometrics are much, much more difficult to forge, and I am willing to bet that there will be a day where fingerprints, eye scans, etc will even take over for ID checks on domestic US operations.
While the technology is currently a bit slow, it will improve in time, and will become faster and more accurate than paper document review.
I am not saying that Europe, Asia, the Pacific, etc are not immune to these issues, but the US seems to be a considerably more vulnerable target.
Keep in mind that in Europe, foreigners have to show their passports to check into a hotel or even a camp ground.

They certainly have the right to keep track on their visitors.

Regards,

Tom



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2810 times:



Quoting AA7295 (Reply 10):
All this ridiculous security issues could be solved if the US just implemented International Terminals for ALL departing and arriving international flights and introduce outbound customs

Do you actually mean outbound Customs or are you talking about Immigration (which are two entirely different things, with entirely different functions).......what possible reason would there be for a country to have Customs for outbound travellers.


User currently offlineCaspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2732 times:



Quoting AA7295 (Reply 14):

The Bush Administration is not very good in thinking its actions through. The US government is more than capable of doing so, but are ruled by an idiot of a President.

You really think that Bush made all the decision on its own? The US President has a huge group of advisers and these advisers had a certain political view which they aggressively pushed forward. There are also the secretaries which also in charge of certain area. So it is the US government which failed not just Bush. We will see if the new president will be to introduce a new style of making politics. I have my hopes on it.

As I said the US can introduce any measure if they think its necessary but I'm really concerned that an official task of taking fingerprints is outsourced to private companies aka airlines. What happens if the airline does something wrong and my fingerprint gets messed up and the next time I want to enter the US I'm confronted with the charge of overstaying my visa because the INS has no record that I left.

About illegal immigration. There are better ways the US government could do to solve this problem. Many of these illegal immigrants have jobs, paying taxes and contribute to the US economy and are desperately needed by the US economy but the US administration especially under Bush and his staff is not willing to reform its immigration laws to address this fact.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

jan 2009, cant get here soon enough!!!! just like GW Bush. Impose more of a police state and make business pay for it.....

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 2646 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
What I find absolutely insane about the whole idea is how are the airlines supposed to implement this? Most US carriers use common gates for both international and domestic departures. Are the feds going to install fingerprint scanners at every gate in the US?, are they going to make gate agents into fingerprint technicians now? I mean its not rocket science to take a good set of prints but still its one more thing.

It's the same problem that BA is going to have at T5 if they try to implement that system. It's not going to work.

Now what they should do is inject visitors with a radioactive compound that decays during your visa duration and turns you a weird color once you've expired. Green for expired tourists, blue for expired students, purple for expired work visas, etc. Maybe emits a smell, too. Once you leave the country, they inject you with the anti-reagent that cancels it out.

Maybe also an ankle bracelet with a timer on it and a tracking device, and when your time is up, it screams out "I am here illegally. Arrest me." every five minutes. And after 1 more week, it blows your foot off, like in the Running Man.

That would make us safer...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

Currently when a foreigner leaves the USA the departing carrier collects the I94 form and gives it to immigration.

If that system which has been in use for as long as I can remember isn't working all of a sudden then why will changing the form from paper to a finger print correct this systemic problem?

The government is making it harder for law abiding people to come and go. The criminals will still find a way around the system.

having a "sterile" area in each gateway may be the answer. Let immigration "process" the passenger like other countries have. I think they call it passport control or something. Having these sterile areas will also assist those who are transiting the USA onto another international destination not have to "enter" the USA. It will also allow a transit pax not to have to get a visa to connect here in the states. Make it easier to be a TWOV.


User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2455 times:



Quoting Vtdl (Reply 1):
A better solution is to issue secure biometric ID card when they enter the country (scan and store finger print), then collect the card when they leave (scan and compare).

The do-gooders at the ACLU will not let that happen!


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21505 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2437 times:



Quoting LH423 (Reply 3):
Maybe the US can pony up and do what almost every industrialized country does have have emigration checks.

You know, where by someone goes up to a desk, is face to face with an officer, hands back his I94 card and maybe even gets an exit stamp.

That would be the way to go, but the terminals in the US aren't set up to do that sort of thing, and converting them would be very expensive.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2411 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
That would be the way to go, but the terminals in the US aren't set up to do that sort of thing, and converting them would be very expensive.

Pre 9/11 gate areas were accessible to non travellers as well, but airports found a way to adapt.

Apart from benefiting TWOV passengers, sterile international departure areas would eliminate the shifting of planes from arrivals buildings (like ORD T5) to common departure ones and make international turnarounds quicker.


User currently offlineVtdl From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 2227 times:



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 21):


Quoting Vtdl (Reply 1):
A better solution is to issue secure biometric ID card when they enter the country (scan and store finger print), then collect the card when they leave (scan and compare).

The do-gooders at the ACLU will not let that happen!

My suggestion is for visitors and non US citizens.


User currently offlineVtdl From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 9 hours ago) and read 2208 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):


Quoting Vtdl (Reply 1):
No wonder tourism in the U.S. continues going down.

Well, in reality it continues to rise, not go down. But whatever you want to believe must be true. That's the new mantra in the 21st century.

OK. maybe "continues going down" isn't exactly correct. But if you look at the data from OTTI's website, http://tinet.ita.doc.gov, there were less tourists coming in 2006 as compare to 2000, with the low point in 2003. Yes, you can argue that it was rising from 2003 to 2006. But really, no net growth in 7 years.

If you look at the data even more closely, the more new tourists were coming from Canada and Mexico. Thank you neighbors  Smile


25 Haggis79 : well, as long as the finger print and maybe a biometric foto are stored only on the ID card you get issued when entering, this would actually be more
26 AirNZ : As far as I'm aware though ( but certainly stand to be corrected) it's not going to be implemented, as it breaches EU Data Protection laws. I very ra
27 MEA-707 : Well well I am annoyed with US customs/immigration logistics too but why this insane comparising? It's called the Hitler argument, used to derail fro
28 Par13del : I would have to say that its because once you enter the US you have all the basic rights of US citizens and residents, the procedures are intended fo
29 DaBuzzard : Please, do not give them any ideas! Who is going to be responsable for the cost picking up all these now ownerless feet? Seriously, I can't see how t
30 Ikramerica : I never thought of that. Well, that is the one and only problem with my plan. But it is a big one.
31 AirCop : The airlines and cruise ship operators are fighting this tooth and nail. I saw this a couple of weeks ago, and the idea per the federal government is
32 Hypercott : This is, unfortunately, not true. The constitution makes no statement about the applicability of the constitutional (bill of) rights to non-US citize
33 Mir : That change was just a simple matter of not letting non-travellers through security. To implement a sterile international departures area would requi
34 MarcoPoloWorld : Amen. For those of us who fly regularly thru hubs such as Hong Kong or Osaka onto third country destinations with incredible convenience and security
35 StuckInCA : Overall, I don't disagree with you. However, last time I was in MUC, I was searched 3 times between the front door and the gate, forced to turn on my
36 Hypercott : Guess who insisted on these increased security measures for flights leaving Germany to the US. ... you guessed right, it was the US government! Send
37 StuckInCA : Bastards! I should have known.
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