SJUboeingGirl From Puerto Rico, joined Nov 2004, 274 posts, RR: 1 Posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12149 times:
Today I had to do some overtime at my job, right after working two LIAT flights, they called me because a charter from First Choice just had an emergency landing here in SJU because a 14 month baby died during the flight. The charter was suppost to land in Punta Cana. They had to bring another crew, disembark everyone and about 6 hours later the flight departed towards Punta Cana. I saw the parents crying, they didn't wanted to hand in the baby after the death. So sad...
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16819 posts, RR: 57 Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11992 times:
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3172 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11542 times:
Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3): If the child was dead, whay make an emergency landing? There's not much you can do.
First use the Spell Checker feature. Second the child is not officially dead until pronounced by a doctor and would you like to be the parents of this child and not land immediately as an medical emergency.
BrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3807 posts, RR: 10 Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11512 times:
This is a very sad story indeed. Must be a very difficult time for the parents.
Its unfortunate that this should happen twice in as many days. Another infant died on an LH flight, they diverted into SNN.
Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 2): Would it be something related to DVT affecting a prone infant, or something else?
While anything is possible its unlikely, unless the child had a congenital defect in the vasculature.
DVT is more commonly seen in people much older than 18 months who are smokers with a history of high cholesterol and blood pressure, and taking certain drugs as well as a prior family history. The other thing that brings on DVT is lack of movement. Even in confined places such as aircraft children have more space to move around than adults do, and if your kids are anything like the kids I've seen they tend to wriggle and move around a lot, so I would not worry unduly about DVT in young children.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11507 times:
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 4): First use the Spell Checker feature. Second the child is not officially dead until pronounced by a doctor and would you like to be the parents of this child and not land immediately as an medical emergency.
Fair point, but SJU and PUJ are only around 156 miles apart. Would it honestly have made much difference if they'd flown on to PUJ and not diverted to SJU? Perhaps the medical/coroner facilities are better in SJU? It just seems to be an odd choice of diversion, given the circumstances.
Still, it's very sad, and may the poor child rest in peace.
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2697 posts, RR: 49 Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11477 times:
Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3): If the child was dead, why make an emergency landing? There's not much you can do.
My idea is that they'd started the diversion once they knew the baby was going very badly and that they only found out he/she passed away only when on the ground, or so near the airport that is was best to just continue with the landing.
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 4): The child is not officially dead until pronounced by a doctor
Wrong.
The captain of a plane is required to issue the dead certificate of any person who died on his plane while in flight, preferably BEFORE or if no longer possible, immediately AFTER the plane has landed and this even without a doctor pronouncing the dead.
The certificate then has to be sent either to the nearest diplomatic post of the country of registration of the plane, or in case of landing in the country of registration to the nearest office of registration and the dead certificate is the only one which will ever be written. It is exactly the same procedure as for births on board and it is derived straight from maritime law, hence the omission of the need for a doctor. That way they could legally put the corpse over board.
TommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 449 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11378 times:
Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 2): Would it be something related to DVT affecting a prone infant, or something else?
Not likely DVT!
More likely the child had any unknown genetic malformations. We also had a 17 month old baby last year in the forensic institue which died all of a sudden and during the forensic investigation we found some malformations of organs.
Another possibility could be the so-called Sudden-infant-death-syndrom (SIDS).
Enginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11338 times:
Very sad coincidence that two infants died on planes within just a few days. However, it probably has to do with the larger absolute number of infants flying these days rather than a special threat flying poses for young children.
Blood clot formation in infants is in fact very rare and most likely not the cause of the death. For risk factors, see e.g. www.dvt.net
Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 5):
DVT is more commonly seen in people much older than 18 months who are smokers with a history of high cholesterol and blood pressure, and taking certain drugs as well as a prior family history.
Very nice Irish (sorry!) way of referring to contraceptive pills.
The captain of a plane is required to issue the dead certificate of any person who died on his plane while in flight, preferably BEFORE or if no longer possible, immediately AFTER the plane has landed and this even without a doctor pronouncing the dead.
How can pilot say that someone is dead or not? That must be done by a doctor. Sorry, but that is nonsense.
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2697 posts, RR: 49 Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 11112 times:
Quoting OHLHD (Reply 10): How can the pilot say that someone is dead or not? That must be done by a doctor. Sorry, but that is nonsense.
All this 'nonsense' as you've called it, is actually governed by national law as no provisions are made in any international treaty and so every country must make its own provisions in case of death, disappearance or birth on board.
As I've said: aeronautical law is often derived from maritime law and as such many European countries -such as mine- have simply copied the same practices into aeronautical law.
Imagine a person would die onboard a ship: If no doctor were to be on board, it would mean the body would have to be kept for days, weeks or even months! This is not a good idea, especially not decades ago, don't you think?
The solution was that the highest ranking officer on board acts as civil servant and writes the official dead certificate, even WITHOUT statement from a doctor...
Same with birth certificates: they have to be written by the captain, NOT a civil servant and are the only official certificate.
For my country, the reference is the Royal Decree of 1937 concerning birth, disappearance and death on board and most importantly article 7 bis (practical arrangements in case of death) which is still valid.
Caspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 11091 times:
Quoting LHR777 (Reply 6): Fair point, but SJU and PUJ are only around 156 miles apart. Would it honestly have made much difference if they'd flown on to PUJ and not diverted to SJU? Perhaps the medical/coroner facilities are better in SJU?
Ever been to Punta Cana? There are just a lot of hotel resorts but beside that there is nothing. San Juan has definitely better infrastructure.
OHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 27 Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10664 times:
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 12): Imagine a person would die onboard a ship: If no doctor were to be on board, it would mean the body would have to be kept for days, weeks or even months! This is not a good idea, especially not decades ago, don't you think?
The solution was that the highest ranking officer on board acts as civil servant and writes the official dead certificate, even WITHOUT statement from a doctor...
I agree with you on the ship.
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 12): Same with birth certificates: they have to be written by the captain, NOT a civil servant and are the only official certificate.
Agree with you again. A birth can be certified by you and me.
Thank you for the link. I can read some french so I understood the basics.
However, I believe that someone who is not a doctor can easily make severe errors by saying that someone is dead as having no heartbeat does not necessarily mean that the person is dead. I f the head is a meter next to the body ok, but I would not want to be in the situation where I declare someone dead and he could have been saved.
I will ask some friends of mine who are pilots and will advise.
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6150 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10620 times:
Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13): Quoting LHR777 (Reply 6):
Fair point, but SJU and PUJ are only around 156 miles apart. Would it honestly have made much difference if they'd flown on to PUJ and not diverted to SJU? Perhaps the medical/coroner facilities are better in SJU?
Ever been to Punta Cana? There are just a lot of hotel resorts but beside that there is nothing. San Juan has definitely better infrastructure.
San Juan definitely has better medical facilities and emergency medical care. The pilot - assuming he's a native english speaker, may well have wanted to deal with US authorities than DR authorities. And yes, I know not everyone in San Juan is a native english speaker - been there many times. Even putting the parents in a place where most people are very fluent with their native language might have been a concern.
This is not a slam on the Dominican Republic and their medical care or officials.
One thought which comes to mind is that unlike the AAL flight which made the descent into Miami and then decided to continue on to New York when the elderly passenger expired - a descent that late in the flight might not have made another climb and travel to the original destination legal under the fuel rules.
We'll never know what made the captain decide to go ahead and land at San Juan.
It's just incredibly sad for the parents. There is not much worse in this world than losing one's child.
YWG747 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10545 times:
Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3): If the child was dead, whay make an emergency landing? There's not much you can do.
As a father of a one month old child, I most certainly would want the plane to land asap so you can at least find out what the hell happened.
My condolences to the family and to the young one.
Iflyac From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 50 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8463 times:
Quoting YWG747 (Reply 16): As a father of a one month old child, I most certainly would want the plane to land asap so you can at least find out what the hell happened.
Not to mention the possibility that the baby could be revived in the hands of a medical professional. I know the odds are terrible, but I'd want every and all effort to be made.
My thoughts go out to the family. What a inconceivable loss.
What was it we had for dinner tonight? Well, we had a choice of steak or fish. Yes, yes, I remember, I had lasagna.
BN727flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8148 times:
Quoting LHR777 (Reply 6): Would it honestly have made much difference if they'd flown on to PUJ and not diverted to SJU? Perhaps the medical/coroner facilities are better in SJU? It just seems to be an odd choice of diversion, given the circumstances
Well, let's see... the population of Punta Cana is about 100,000, or about the equivalent of Gloucester or Exeter in the UK. San Juan, on the other hand, is about 500,000, with another 2 million population in the immediate metro area surrounding San Juan, making it more like Birmingham in the UK. Also, the SJU airport is a bit larger than the PUJ airport. The city with the larger population will almost certainly have more-developed infrastructures in public health and surface transportation (among other areas), and the larger city's airport will likely have more or better airport services, including emergency medical and public health services. Therefore, my guess is that there are better medical/coroner facilities at SJU simply based on population and airport size.
So, I must respectfully disagree, SJU does not seem like an odd choice for such a diversion, given the circumstances of a life-or-death situation.
Tundra767 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2005, 429 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7692 times:
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 12): All this 'nonsense' as you've called it, is actually governed by national law as no provisions are made in any international treaty and so every country must make its own provisions in case of death, disappearance or birth on board.
Different countries have different rules. In the U.S death can only be declared by someone medically trained to do so.
Landingshortly From Austria, joined Jan 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7439 times:
My deepest condolences to the family and r.i.p. to the baby. It's always sad when somebody passes away, especially when they didn't have any chance to experience so many things we take for granted.
BlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 25 Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7151 times:
Some misinformation in this thread.
Below is copied CAA Doc_208, the UK rules and regs for such a situation.
CIVIL AVIATION (BIRTHS, DEATHS AND
MISSING PERSONS) REGULATIONS, 1948
(MADE PURSUANT TO SECTION 83
OF THE CIVIL AVIATION ACT, 1982):
1 The Regulations regarding the registration of Births, Deaths and Missing Persons are
laid down in the Civil Aviation (Births, Deaths and Missing Persons) Regulations, 1948,
as amended, made pursuant to Section 83 of the Civil Aviation Act, 1982.
2 The owner of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall, as soon as practicable
but not later than six months after the occurrence in any part of the world of a birth or
death in the aircraft, or a death outside the United Kingdom of a traveller on the
aircraft who is killed on the journey in consequence of an accident, transmit to the
CAA a return of such birth or death on the appropriate form.
3 Copies of the following forms of return for use by owners of aircraft can be obtained by
application to the Civil Aviation Authority, Aircraft Registration Department, CAA
House, 45–59 Kingsway, London WC2B 6TE.
Tel: 020 7453 6666 Fax: 020 7453 6670
(a) Birth Form CA 680
(b) Death Form CA 681
(c) Missing Person Form CA 682
4 On completion and receipt of the appropriate form to register a Death, Birth or
Missing Person, the return is entered into the relevant register maintained by the CAA.
A copy of the register entry is then made and sent to the appropriate Registrars Office
for any relevant Certificates to be issued.
5 The following notes on the subject of returns may be useful to owners or other
persons who may have occasion to render a return:
(a) Births
(i) Section 83 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982, makes no provision for still births.
Particulars of still births are not therefore required to be made the subject of
a return under these Regulations.
(ii) If a birth does not actually occur in the aircraft but occurs elsewhere, after
the mother has been removed from the aircraft for treatment and attention,
any eventual birth succeeding such removal of the mother from the aircraft
need not be the subject of a return under these Regulations.
(iii) A birth that occurs in the aircraft and so becomes the subject of a return
under these Regulations may, under other Statutes, require to be separately
recorded. This fact, however, should not be regarded as in any way
precluding or rendering unnecessary the completion of any return required
to be furnished under these Regulations.
(iv) In the case of the birth of an illegitimate child, the name of any person as
father of such child shall not be entered in any return or record of particulars
of the birth of such child unless the mother of the child and the person
acknowledging himself to be the father of the child shall have signed a
completed form of return as informants.
(b) Deaths
(i) If the death occurs when the aircraft is in or over the United Kingdom, a
return of such a death will be necessary only if such death actually occurs in
the aircraft (i.e. a return would not be necessary for a person overtaken by
illness who is carried in the aircraft but who, following removal from the
aircraft to hospital or to some other place, eventually succumbs to such
illness), nor if the deceased is killed in consequence of an accident whilst the
aircraft is in or over the United Kingdom.
(ii) If the death occurs when the aircraft is outside the United Kingdom, return
of such a death will be necessary both when death occurs in the aircraft and
also when the deceased is a traveller in the aircraft and is killed on the
journey in consequence of an accident. (iii) The cause of death to be entered on a return should, where possible, be in
agreement with the cause as medically assessed in a death certificate given by
a doctor who, having previously attended the deceased, is able to furnish a
death certificate or, alternatively, should an inquest be necessary to dispose
of the case, with the cause as found by the Coroner or other officer charged
with the official investigation of the cause of death.
‘Traveller’ in relation to an aircraft, includes any member of the crew of the
aircraft.
‘ Journey’ is deemed to commence when a traveller enters an aircraft
registered in the United Kingdom for the purpose of the journey and to
continue until that traveller alights therefrom on completion of the journey
notwithstanding any intermediate stop or break in the journey.
(c) Recording of Births and Deaths in the Aircraft Documents
(i) Apart from the returns to be rendered by the owners of the aircraft in
respect of a birth or death, it is important to note that the Regulations
impose on the person in command of the aircraft an obligation to record any
such event in the aircraft documents.
(ii) The record of the event so made by the person in command of the aircraft
should contain all of the particulars required to be furnished in the return
rendered by the owners. It is however not expected that the person in
command of the aircraft should needlessly hold up the departure or
scheduled movements of the aircraft to obtain some particulars which
cannot become immediately available, e.g. cause of death.
(iii) ‘Person in command’ of an aircraft means, in a case where a person other
than the pilot is in command of the aircraft, that person, and in any other
case, the pilot.
It is recommended that, if the person ordinarily designated as ‘in command’
should become incapacitated by death, injury or illness or other cause, so
that they are unable to act, the recording in the aircraft documents of a birth
or death should be undertaken by such a member of the aircraft crew as in
such a contingency would ordinarily assume command of the aircraft.
[Edited 2008-04-24 14:59:54]
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7061 times:
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 22): The cause of death to be entered on a return should, where possible, be in
agreement with the cause as medically assessed in a death certificate given by
a doctor who, having previously attended the deceased, is able to furnish a
death certificate or, alternatively, should an inquest be necessary to dispose
of the case, with the cause as found by the Coroner or other officer charged
with the official investigation of the cause of death.
Which I believe is similar to the USA regs, as some have implied.
In fact, I know in the USA, it is recommended for various reasons (legal and other), that the death certificate not be signed until after the aircraft has landed and at the gate, even if a doctor happens to be aboard the aircraft at the time of death in the air.
In my time I have see some other similar regulations ... most of which require a local death certificate, provided by a local doctor, after the aircraft has landed.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6669 times:
Quoting BN727flyr (Reply 18): So, I must respectfully disagree, SJU does not seem like an odd choice for such a diversion, given the circumstances of a life-or-death situation.
That's fine, that's why I asked the question. I've been to SJU, and SDQ, but never PUJ. I didn't know, so I asked. Thank you.
25 NightFlier: WOW. I remember when I took pathology my professor who also worked for the medical examiner office would always talk to us about Sudden Infant Death S
26 AirNZ: Firstly, I am not disputing what you say in the slightest way, but am just curious........how is an airline pilot medically qualified to determine th
27 RFields5421: The pilot of an aircraft has most of the same broad legal powers as a captain of a surface ship. It's not that he or she is medically qualified to ma
28 Bond007: Which actually is hardly any more legal powers than the average person, apart from those given in the FARs. For example, Captains of ships being able
29 Sabenapilot: Correct, but mind you: I've reacted to the uneducated assumption put forward that only a doctor can do this, which is clearly wrong as well, at least
30 EXTspotter: Such an awful thing to happen. As previously stated, there is no real infrastrcture in PUJ, it is just a tourist resort with no local population - all
31 Nzrich: Well at NZ we have a system where we can contact doctors on the ground and in conjunction with them can advise the crew on board on such matters .. I
32 Cwldude: Awful thing to happen! Can't imagine what the family must be going through! Does anyone know what the cause of the death was yet?
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