Quote: An SQ B777 operating on the Singapore - Paris sector made an emergency landing at DEL yesterday at about 1705 local time after the pilot reported trouble in one of his engines.
The plane landed here without incident and the a/c is still hanging about at DEL. The a/c involved is 9V-SWF type B777-312(ER).
Does anyone know more about this incident? Are the pax accommodated in hotels in DEL, or flown to SIN by a spare 777 or the scheduled SQ services on DEL-SIN?
Aguslamm From Argentina, joined Apr 2008, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16023 times:
Anyone keeping track of all the 777-773-77W emergency landings? There have been quite a few lately, is this a coincidence? I have been flying 777s since they startrd in 1995 and always found them very relieble.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 35 Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15914 times:
(a) 2007 Jun 26 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQS Sch: PTP-ORY Diverted to: PTP
(b) 2007 Aug ?? Opr: NH Regn: JA7xxA Sch: NRT-??? Diverted to: NRT
(c) 2007 Sep ?? Opr: AF Regn:
(d) 2007 Oct ?? Opr: EK Regn: A6-xxx Sch: BKK-DXB Diverted to: BKK
(e) 2007 Nov 25 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQE Sch: PEK-CDG Diverted to: LED
(f) 2007 Dec 12 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQP Sch: ORY-RUN Diverted to: FCO
(g) 2008 Jan 28 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQO Sch: ORY-RUN Diverted to: MXP
(h) 2008 Feb 01 Opr: SQ Regn: 9V-SWA Sch: SIN-CDG Diverted to: FRA
At least three other incidents -one involving a CO 777 in TLV -have been reported since.(that cause was a faulty sensor-connector )
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 35 Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15859 times:
That one was in March :
Air France 777 unscheduled diversion cause inflight shutdown
Lajes (Azores/Portugal) - An Air France plane makes an uncheduled diversion to Lajes international airport (Terceira Island), in Azores, due to engine mechanical troubles on one of the two engines of the plane during a flight over Atlantic Ocean.
The aircraft, a Boeing 777-300ER, registration number F-GSQT, flight number AF620, which was supposed to operate between Paris-Orly (France) international airport and Pointe-à-Pitre-Le Raizet (Guadeloupe/France) international airport with a total passengers number not know at this present time, took-off around noon and was over the Atlantic Ocean when an engine incident occurred. The pilots requested an emergency diversion to Lajes.
The plane landed without further incident and no injuries. No more information were released by the company about the engine problem. The passengers have been disembarked and placed in some hotels to wait for the next departure, the day after.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 17688 posts, RR: 58 Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15742 times:
If all are considered IFSD (and not determined to be another problem), then the 77W may not keep ETOPS207 or earn 240. I estimate 1 million engine hours over the last 12 month period for the type, and to keep the best ETOPS rating, you need the type to have fewer than 10 IFSDs. We are at that number now, so they are on the verge. I'm using rough numbers, and it may end up being they have a few IFSD's to "spare."
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 17688 posts, RR: 58 Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15650 times:
Quoting Aguslamm (Reply 6): something wrong with the engines?
well, considering they are currently within the very stringent ETOPS207 guidelines, claiming there is "something wrong" is a bit much. I mean, it's meeting the most reliable engine standard in commercial aviation!
Now, I am sure that GE is looking at why they are close to the limit here, especially with AF who's had 1/2 of the shut downs. it might be a maintenance issue in the field (something GE wouldn't have found in their test environment with their test engineers babying the engines).
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
FlySSC From Lebanon, joined Aug 2003, 6099 posts, RR: 62 Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 15509 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): Now, I am sure that GE is looking at why they are close to the limit here, especially with AF who's had 1/2 of the shut downs. it might be a maintenance issue in the field (something GE wouldn't have found in their test environment with their test engineers babying the engines).
If it was a maintenance issue, AF would have had 100% of the IFSD problems. Last time I checked, AF is not responsible for SQ's B77W maintenance ... Note also that AF operates 24 B773ER against 13 or 14 for SQ so statistically, it makes more sense that AF more incidents than SQ.
Catdaddy63 From United States, joined Apr 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15075 times:
The actual flight hours for the type has to be increasing rapidly with many new frames having been delivered and many more to come. The quantity of IFSD's will logically increase while the rate based on flight hours will begin to decrease. Operators are probably still learning the quirks of these engines as well, and pilots will always err on the side of caution when EICAS shows anything abnormal, and rightly so.
Checksixx From United States, joined Mar 2005, 808 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14966 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4): Lajes (Azores/Portugal) - An Air France plane makes an uncheduled diversion to Lajes international airport (Terceira Island), in Azores, due to engine mechanical troubles on one of the two engines of the plane during a flight over Atlantic Ocean.
The aircraft, a Boeing 777-300ER, registration number F-GSQT, flight number AF620, which was supposed to operate between Paris-Orly (France) international airport and Pointe-à-Pitre-Le Raizet (Guadeloupe/France) international airport with a total passengers number not know at this present time, took-off around noon and was over the Atlantic Ocean when an engine incident occurred. The pilots requested an emergency diversion to Lajes.
The plane landed without further incident and no injuries. No more information were released by the company about the engine problem. The passengers have been disembarked and placed in some hotels to wait for the next departure, the day after.
This was on the Air Force website also...I'll see if I can find their article.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 4942 posts, RR: 52 Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14691 times:
Quoting Aguslamm (Reply 2): Anyone keeping track of all the 777-773-77W emergency landings?
FAA, EASA, Boeing, and GE.
Quoting Aguslamm (Reply 2): There have been quite a few lately, is this a coincidence?
Yes, based on evidence to date.
Quoting Aguslamm (Reply 2): I have been flying 777s since they startrd in 1995 and always found them very relieble.
They are. They still have one of the lowest IFSD rates and highest dispatch reliabilities in commercial aviation.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5): If all are considered IFSD (and not determined to be another problem), then the 77W may not keep ETOPS207 or earn 240.
You'd only revoke ETOPS rating on the type if the shutdowns were uniformly distributed across the fleet. They're not.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5): I estimate 1 million engine hours over the last 12 month period for the type, and to keep the best ETOPS rating, you need the type to have fewer than 10 IFSDs.
The fleet accumulates about 200000 hours per month, or 1.2 million flight hours per year. That's 2.4 million engine hours per year. You're out by at least a factor of two.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 4942 posts, RR: 52 Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12936 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 13):
The fleet accumulates about 200000 hours per month, or 1.2 million flight hours per year. That's 2.4 million engine hours per year. You're out by at least a factor of two.
Apparently, I can't do math today.
200000 hours per month is 2.4 million flight hours per year, or 4.8 million engine hours per year.
SandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2895 posts, RR: 35 Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12226 times:
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10): Note also that AF operates 24 B773ER against 13 or 14 for SQ so statistically, it makes more sense that AF more incidents than SQ.
The comparison between SQ and AF is irrelevant.
You'd have to compare AF's fleet to the whole GE equipped 77W fleet currently in service to bring some sense into this statement, and since AF does not operate half of all GE 77Ws out there, it still seems that they had a large number of all the IFSD despite their relatively small number of 77Ws in operation compared to the worldwide fleet.
It may just be bad luck, but you can't deny facts.
And what makes you so sure that there might not be a fault on AF's part?
LAXCDG From France, joined Apr 2008, 44 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11902 times:
The 772 with GE engine was and is not affected as much by IFSD. The 77W is really the one affected by this problem. I doubt that this is a maintenance issue with AF.AF has been operating 777-200 ER for the late 90's with GE engines and I dont recall any real issue as with 77W. AF is also the first airline who took delivery of 77W,dont you think that if mx was a problem,those IFSD wouldn't have happened earlier?? And those IFSD are happening now with SQ,NH (?), same story here, never heard of any IFSD with their 772,but on 77W yes.Are we going to blame their mx also?
The real question is, could it be an issue with the GE 90 - 115 B?? To me It start to look that way.
OldAeroGuy From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2773 posts, RR: 58 Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11260 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5): I estimate 1 million engine hours over the last 12 month period for the type, and to keep the best ETOPS rating, you need the type to have fewer than 10 IFSDs.
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15): 200000 hours per month is 2.4 million flight hours per year, or 4.8 million engine hours per year.
Your math is still off a bit.
There have been 136 773ER's and 19 772LR's delivered. These are the sole users of the GE90-11XB.
Of these 155 airplanes, 82 were delivered over a year ago and 73 were delivered from April '07 thru Mar. '08 (12 months). The delivery rate was about 6 per month.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 4942 posts, RR: 52 Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11015 times:
Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17): I'm sure Boeing and GE are certainly trying to figure out why they've a recent number of IFSDs.
I'm still not at all convinced that it's any higher than normal, just that it's being reported a lot more than normal. The *vast* majority of IFSD's are, normally, not reported in the media. It's only since the BA event that the media has even bothered looking. All of the narrowbody fleets (Airbus and Boeing) have had way more IFSD's in the same time period, but nobody reports that because it's not "news".
Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 20):
Next bit of information we need is why they were shut down. Is that available from some source publicly.
Very unlikely. This isn't something the OEM's or engine makers like to publish.
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 21):
There have been 136 773ER's and 19 772LR's delivered. These are the sole users of the GE90-11XB.
I was going on the total 777 fleet. Until there is some reason to think that it's tied specifically to the GE90-11xB, that seems appropriate. There are non-11xB 777's out there that also have IFSD's.
Justloveplanes From United States, joined Jul 2004, 458 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10942 times:
Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17): I'm sure Boeing and GE are certainly trying to figure out why they've a recent number of IFSDs
Are the data quoted below all IFSD's? For example, the CO incident, the engine was not shut down, though fuel was dumped. Perhaps some of these other emergency landings are high temperature readings or something similar that procedurally require a diversion, but are not IFSD's. Don't know just asking.
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 3): a) 2007 Jun 26 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQS Sch: PTP-ORY Diverted to: PTP
(b) 2007 Aug ?? Opr: NH Regn: JA7xxA Sch: NRT-??? Diverted to: NRT
(c) 2007 Sep ?? Opr: AF Regn:
(d) 2007 Oct ?? Opr: EK Regn: A6-xxx Sch: BKK-DXB Diverted to: BKK
(e) 2007 Nov 25 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQE Sch: PEK-CDG Diverted to: LED
(f) 2007 Dec 12 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQP Sch: ORY-RUN Diverted to: FCO
(g) 2008 Jan 28 Opr: AF Regn: F-GSQO Sch: ORY-RUN Diverted to: MXP
(h) 2008 Feb 01 Opr: SQ Regn: 9V-SWA Sch: SIN-CDG Diverted to: FRA
At least three other incidents -one involving a CO 777 in TLV -have been reported since.(that cause was a faulty sensor-connector )
Francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 1752 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9101 times:
I don't know how much relevance to give those IFSD figures without comparing them to some meaningful figures from other aircraft/engine combinations out there.
A330s and 767s get their fare share of shut downs as well, but since they don't seem to be as publicized and not many people keep track of them, it's hard to say whether those happening to the 777/GE are out of the ordinary or not.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 17688 posts, RR: 58 Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8675 times:
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10): If it was a maintenance issue, AF would have had 100% of the IFSD problems.
There is no logic to this statement.
AF may be unlucky, or they may have an issue. But it doesn't mean that no other airline would ever have an IFSD even if AF was the worst carrier on earth.
But I didn't say it was AF's issue anyway. You read it wrong.
I said that it was posibly an IN THE FIELD maintenance issue that GE didn't see in their testing because their conditions were more controlled. I didn't say it was specific to AF. It could crop up, in theory, at any airline over time.
But we won't know until it's sorted out. So don't jump the gun and assume I'm blaming AF when I never did. Maybe you are being too defensive of AF because YOU think it might be partly their fault?
Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 18): It may just be bad luck, but you can't deny facts.
Sure, people deny facts here all the time when they don't like the facts!
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 21): This means the GE90-11xB has 968000 operating hours.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5): I estimate 1 million engine hours over the last 12 month period for the type
Not a bad guess...
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 21): For 207 min ETOPS, the minimum IFSD requirement is .02 per 1000 engine hours or 2*10-5.
Right, I confused the newer 1 in 100,000 that the ETOPS240 is going to require, misreading the document I was looking at.
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 22): I was going on the total 777 fleet. Until there is some reason to think that it's tied specifically to the GE90-11xB, that seems appropriate.
You can't really do that. The 777 longer range is a subtype that must be taken on it's own.
Quoting Francoflier (Reply 24): I don't know how much relevance to give those IFSD figures without comparing them to some meaningful figures from other aircraft/engine combinations out there.
Why not? The relevance is that the standard is as stated, and despite the "troubling" "black" events of the past year, the 777 longer range is still twice as reliable as it needs to be to keep ETOPS.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
26 Awthompson: The above lists miss the two 777 in flight engine shut downs with diversions that I remember the most; 2004 (19 March) United 777-222ER N783US - diver
27 Francoflier: I have absolutely no doubt about that. I was just saying that it would be interesting to know whether the 777/GE-11x IFSD rate is actually higher tha
28 Dw747400: Because the list was looking only at aircraft with the GE90-11X series engines.
29 Zeke: That list is not complete by a long way for the 77L/77W, a lot of diversions happen in aviation that do not make it on a.net or in the papers.
30 Mk777: well hopefully the pax were accomodated and taken care of...did they make it to SIN finally???
31 OldAeroGuy: But ETOPS IFSD statistics are engine model specific. The existing 777 fleet is fitted with GE, P&W and RR engines. Due the mechanical differences in
32 Zeke: The entire fleet statistics and core engine technology is used for accelerated ETOPS approvals.
33 Awthompson: Ah thanks for correcting me on that, I was never able to obtain a registration for it and I don't know what made me think it was a -300.
34 Tdscanuck: Good point. I misread the post that kicked off this particular sub-thread and thought the poster was talking about the whole 777 fleet, not just the
35 Zeke: Operators get ETOPS approvals, not certifications, and that approval maybe revoked at any time without much notice. The difference may seem like sema
36 Iceman2: The 777-300ER/-200LR (GE90-115B powered) fleet has had 14 diversion or air turnback events over the last 10 months by my records. Of these 9 were IFSD
37 1821: The 777's are having some issues lately. One thing i will say is an SQ flight ( on a 777 ) around 2 to 3 years ago made an emergency landing in SKG (
38 SEPilot: Your math seems a bit wobbly. Don't you mean .005?
39 Iceman2: Thanks for the correction, I do mean .005. Makes more sense now.
40 1821: . Sorry i could not post it earlier but here is the plane in SKG. Cheers!!!
41 AirlineAddict: It seems like we are mixing engine types with the IFSDs mentioned. The CO TLV incident was on a 772 not 77W or 77L.
42 TropicalSQ744: Hey guys, There have been issues related to the Trent 800 module 52 (low pressure turbine section) that caused a number of IFSDs with SQ's fleet. At o
43 Tdscanuck: Quite a few of these are either undetermined cause or non-mechanical. Which "fundamental mechanical failures" are you referring to? Tom.
44 Iceman2: Well, here goes. LPT blade failures, transfer gear failures and HP compressor seal failures are fundemental mechanical failures that cover 10 of the
45 Dw747400: That may be, but it does explain why the two the other poster referred to were not on the list.
46 Cricket: OK, so that explains the SQ 77W I saw at DEL at the remote stand at T2 when I landed yesterday. It was beside a 777-337ER and a 777-35RER, three in a
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