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747 Upper Deck  
User currently offlineSargek From United States of America, joined May 2007, 14 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8995 times:

The upper deck of 747-100 was designed for the cargo door and lounge.Does anyone remember reading that the upper deck on the 747 was also designed partially to allow cargo the pass under the pilots in event of a sudden stop? I read this somewhere, but can't find it again. Thanks

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12523 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8955 times:

I don't think that was an issue, BUT the ability to load cargo onto the main deck of a 747, through the nose, is a huge advantage and gives the 747 a crucial edge over every current large cargo aircraft -including the A380. The 747 can be taxied up to any cargo terminal and cargo loaded straight on; that's a huge benefit, compared to the likes of MD11F, 777F etc.

It has been said that Juan Trippe, the visionary head of Pan Am, said that the 747 could be converted to a freighter after the aircraft had left pax service; how prophetic he was and quite a few ex-PA 747s are still flying as freighters (although in fairness most of the -100s have been grounded or cut up now). Many 747s, indeed now including -400s, are now being converted to freighters and their attractiveness to airlines is perfectly understandable.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8883 times:

This doesn't answer your question, but I vaguely remember discussions about safety concerns in the case of the 747M ("Combi") related to the possibility of improperly restrained main-deck cargo moving forward into the main-deck pax area.


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3548 posts, RR: 67
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8494 times:



Quoting Sargek (Thread starter):
The upper deck of 747-100 was designed for the cargo door and lounge.Does anyone remember reading that the upper deck on the 747 was also designed partially to allow cargo the pass under the pilots in event of a sudden stop? I

The main reason was to allow for loading through the nose.

Quoting WestWing (Reply 2):
This doesn't answer your question, but I vaguely remember discussions about safety concerns in the case of the 747M ("Combi") related to the possibility of improperly restrained main-deck cargo moving forward into the main-deck pax area.

It also a concern for all other main deck cargo airplanes. This condition is what designs the forward cargo net/rigid barrier.

The pilots don't like the though of being crushed by the cargo in the event of a crash landing.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8462 times:

Cargo was never loaded on the 2nd floor of the 747 but the combo with a swing nose could carry freight,and on some combos a cargo door was cut in the rear with pax up front,,, But upstairs is really not big enough to hold much freight


i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8434 times:



Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 4):
Cargo was never loaded on the 2nd floor of the 747 but the combo with a swing nose could carry freight,and on some combos a cargo door was cut in the rear with pax up front,,, But upstairs is really not big enough to hold much freight

I know that they do transport precious cargo upstairs, ie heart transplants, and very rare items and there is usually a courier



"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8392 times:

Oh well something small like diamonds or paintings but nothing like a container or cookie sheet


i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineJohnclipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8155 times:



Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 3):
Quoting Sargek (Thread starter):
The upper deck of 747-100 was designed for the cargo door and lounge.Does anyone remember reading that the upper deck on the 747 was also designed partially to allow cargo the pass under the pilots in event of a sudden stop? I

The main reason was to allow for loading through the nose.

The cargo loaded through the nose can't be as tall as the cargo loaded through the SCD in order to pass under the upper deck.


User currently offlineRamzi From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7256 times:



Quoting Sargek (Thread starter):
partially to allow cargo the pass under the pilots

I believe that's true, can't provide a source though.



There will come a time when you believe everything is finished - that will be the beginning.
User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 456 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6311 times:

Do cargo B747 have internal stairs to go from the upper deck to the lower deck during flight or is the lower deck completly shut off from the crew during flight.
I watched a programme on Discovery channel before all about the B747 cargo, they had one going from the USA to somewhere in Asia, its been a few years since I seen this programme but I can remember it was pretty good.

Grimey


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4589 times:

Wiki does mention something in its article about the 747:

"As the CX-HLS aircraft was designed to carry heavy cargo, a cockpit at a conventional location in the nose represented a serious risk during a crash landing, as the cargo would move forward and potentially crush the pilots. All of the companies took this problem into account by moving the cockpit above the cargo area; Douglas had a small "pod" just forward and above the wing, Lockheed used a long "spine" running the length of the aircraft with the wing spar passing through it, while Boeing blended the two, with a longer pod that ran from just behind the nose to just behind the wing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747

Give Wiki the credibility you always would, of course...

This would suggest that the 'cargo crushing the pilots' issue was at least considered during initial development of all 3 CX-HLS contenders' projects, which is where the 747 initially got its high cockpit from. Of course, this suggests that the same issue was considered during development of the C-5 and its unborn Douglas competitor.

But then, it also says:

"In 1963, the US Air Force started a series of study projects on a very large "strategic" transport aircraft. Although the C-141 Starlifter was in the process of being introduced, they felt that a much larger and more capable aircraft was needed, especially the capability to carry "outsized" cargo that would not fit in any existing aircraft. These studies led to the "CX-X" (Cargo, Experimental, no number) design that called for a load capacity of 180,000 pounds (81,600 kg) and a speed of Mach 0.75 (500 mph/805 km/h), and an unrefueled range of 5,000 nautical miles (9,260 km) with a payload of 115,000 pounds (52,200 kg). The payload bay had to be 17 feet (5.18 m) wide by 13.5 feet (4.11 m) high and 100 feet (30.5 m) long with access through doors at the front and rear."

(My emphasis)

So at the end of the day, pilot crushing risk factored in or not, there was no other place to put the flight deck than 'up there'...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3548 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4422 times:



Quoting Johnclipper (Reply 7):
The cargo loaded through the nose can't be as tall as the cargo loaded through the SCD in order to pass under the upper deck.

True, but much longer cargo can be loaded through the nose door than the side door. Masts for America's Cup racers are one example.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3570 times:



Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
Do cargo B747 have internal stairs to go from the upper deck to the lower deck during flight or is the lower deck completly shut off from the crew during flight.
I watched a programme on Discovery channel before all about the B747 cargo, they had one going from the USA to somewhere in Asia, its been a few years since I seen this programme but I can remember it was pretty good.

The staris are accessable but only go to door 1L because cargo is all around them so they never go down to the main deck during flight, everything is up stairs



"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3236 times:



Quoting N104UA (Reply 12):
Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
Do cargo B747 have internal stairs to go from the upper deck to the lower deck during flight or is the lower deck completly shut off from the crew during flight.
I watched a programme on Discovery channel before all about the B747 cargo, they had one going from the USA to somewhere in Asia, its been a few years since I seen this programme but I can remember it was pretty good.

The staris are accessable but only go to door 1L because cargo is all around them so they never go down to the main deck during flight, everything is up stairs

747F freighters have a retractible ladder opposite the forward cabin door. It folds up into the ceiling. Visible in photos of 747-400Fs below.

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Photo © Matt Coleman - Nashville Aviation Photographers
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Photo © Craig Murray



User currently offlineMadViking From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3121 times:

An Air-traffic controller once told me, they put the upper deck on the 747 so the pilots can sit with their wallets in their back pocket!  Wink

User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3010 times:



Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
Do cargo B747 have internal stairs to go from the upper deck to the lower deck during flight or is the lower deck completly shut off from the crew during flight.

It's not 'shut off', but it is forbidden for anyone to be downstairs during the flight, for the obvious reason that there are no O2 masks down there in case of depress...

The one exceptions is during an emergency that would call for one of the crew to go down or for animal carers who have to stay with their animals to keep them calm. They have to be properly briefed on the use of emergency equipment available, escape routes, how to communicate to the cockpit via intercom, and they have a personal O2 bottle with them at all times.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6360 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2979 times:
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Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
don't think that was an issue, BUT the ability to load cargo onto the main deck of a 747, through the nose, is a huge advantage and gives the 747 a crucial edge over every current large cargo aircraft



Quoting Sargek (Thread starter):
The 747 can be taxied up to any cargo terminal and cargo loaded straight on;

Not really straight on, and this was an issue at the beginning of the program. Specialized equipment had to be designed and built in order to be able to load the aircraft through the nose. I don't know if that was a deal-breaker for the USAF and Boeing, but the C-5 which beat Boeing on the giant cargo plane bid in the mid-60's does have the advantage in this respect, as cargo CAN and IS driven into the huge cargo bay. Same thing applies to the Il-76 and the An-124.

Quoting Sargek (Thread starter):
The upper deck of 747-100 was designed for the cargo door and lounge.

The lounge was not planned. It came into exsistence as the fairing from the cockpit towards the back of the fuselage for aerodynamic purposes created the space. It was an unintended consequence of placing the flightdeck on the upper deck and not intended for passenger use throughout the whole flight, at the beginning. That is why important modifications needed to be carried out when the airlines started dispensing with the lounge and putting fare paying customers up there.


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