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Full Body Scanners At BWI: Invasion Of Privacy?  
User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

Checked the forum, but couldn't find other references to this.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...bz.security29apr29,0,7060799.story

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...29apr29,0,7088338.column?track=rss

What do a.netters think of this? We know newspapers like to be spicy, but is there a real issue here? I bring this up mainly because my mother-in-law is freaking out and saying she'll never fly again, not ever...and now I've heard friends at work saying similar things. Do the airlines stand to lose business...?

BTW, I like the part about the new age mood music. Making airport security into a warm and fuzzy experience...well, why not/  cloudnine 


'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

I don't have an issue with it, and if we look at usage statistics from PHX, neither do 90% of people. It's just a small 10% minority who don't like it. At PHX, the image was never at full resolution so body parts couldn't be seen (something both articles above conveniently left out). The image is deleted immediately after inspection anyway.

User currently offline764 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6060 times:

It is IMO a completely unnecessary and drastic invasion of privacy. There is absolutely no need for these measures. If at least it were just a computer analyzing the images, but a human being? Come on, that goes way too far.

The idea isn't new and TSA have been promoting it for a while now but postponed it in response to the public's concerns. But TSA being TSA they will just push anything they want through, just maybe a little later than panned.

Surprising that they can't get the new liquids scanners in place (those that would allow passengers to bring reasonable amounts of beverages and other harmless liquids), but that they can surely install any additional measures that annoy customers.

Most of all I highly doubt the claim that the radiation used by the scanners is "harmless". X-rays are still x-rays and for the frequent flier they may pose a health risk, no matter what TSA say.


User currently offline764 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6044 times:



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
usage statistics from PHX

Don't forget that people are afraid of the consequences if they object to being scanned. Remember what happened at some airports when you refused to take your shoes off (before it became mandatory)? They put you through secondary, occasionally asking you to take your pants off (button fly anyway).

Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
The image is deleted immediately after inspection anyway

Or so they say. But who can be sure? I'm sure they'd fetch a good price from health insurance companies for example. So maybe it is just a matter of time until images get stored. maybe to "deter terrorists" at first.

Overall I just don't see the added security to offset the added discomfort.


User currently offlineGerbenYYZ From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5961 times:

I don't understand the issue with "added discomfort"... Why do we care if we're scanned or not? There will be thousands of people walking through that scanner each and every day. I have nothing to hide, and if this speeds up the screening process, please go ahead and scan me!

I realize this is only my personal opinion, but people here were screaming invasion of privacy when we tried to introduce photo radar to catch speeding cars... If you don't want your picture taken in the car, don't speed. In this case, if you don't want your scan done, request a manual search, but the majority of people will gladly walk through the scanner.

Gerben


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

I've got mixed feelings on this, and as usual, a.netters have done a GREAT job in pointing out both sides.

On the one hand,

Quote:
I have nothing to hide, and if this speeds up the screening process, please go ahead and scan me!

I really and truly wish I could believe 100% that this increase efficiency and make long security lines a thing of the past...however, this is the same "helpful government department" that has brought us (1) The TSA, (2) The concept that 2.5 ounces of a liquid is acceptable but 3 ounces makes you Osama Bin Laden, (3) The "No-Fly" list that throws names randomly on and offers no hope of removal, and (4) an FAA that still has not figured out how to re-design America's airspace for the jet age...which began nearly 50 years ago!!

More than anything else, I am afraid mostly of what will happen when the machines BREAK DOWN. Will a technical failure (a blue screen, perhaps?) at ATL or ORD disrupt every single passenger operation for the next three days? Will there be any kind of back-up plan if this happens? Or will an airport be forced to cancel operations completely because the old way is now unacceptable and nobody knows what to do when the machine breaks down?

And if I see the name "Halliburton" as the manufacturer of the scanning machines, I might not ever fly again myself!!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26137 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

We have one of the new machines at LAX, and have not heard of any cries against it.

This technology is not that new anyhow, and has been successfully employed overseas already. My first experience with the machine was in Amsterdam many years ago when the machine was in testing and used to screen crew members only initially.

I had zero problems with the technology then, and similarly no issues today.

Matter of fact, I believe these machines are easier for screening then the current metal detector method. One does not need to strip off belts, remove wallets etc which might risk the magnetometer going off, here on simply walks up, gets scanned, and continues on your way.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

Thanks for all your responses. A good discussion.

Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
Most of all I highly doubt the claim that the radiation used by the scanners is "harmless". X-rays are still x-rays and for the frequent flier they may pose a health risk, no matter what TSA say.

Good point. The most frequent fliers of all are airline crews. I wonder if there are any of you out there with a point of view on this?

I'm still wondering how (if?) I can reassure my mother-in-law. Like many of us, I suspect, I seem to spend a lot of time reassuring various people about the safety of flying, and I don't like to see people unnecessarily being put off air travel. But so far, I still can't work out what to tell her. She's simply creeped out by the idea of a stranger looking at her naked body, especially as she has medical issues, and I think we can all understand her reaction even if we don't happen to react that way ourselves.



'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5764 times:



Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
Most of all I highly doubt the claim that the radiation used by the scanners is "harmless". X-rays are still x-rays and for the frequent flier they may pose a health risk, no matter what TSA say.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm a physician. I want detailed dosimetry reports and I want them posted at every single security checkpoint with comparisons to routine medical imaging procedures (Chest and dental X-rays).

I don't order routine chest X-rays on my patients precisely because I want to limit their radiation exposure. Even if a CXR has very little radiation.

From a privacy standpoint, I don't see how this is any worse than a pat-down. But I don't like this X-ray business one iota.


User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5731 times:



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
It's just a small 10% minority who don't like it.

But surely quite a lot of actual people, just the same. Even if only some of the ten per cent were sufficiently upset that they stopped flying altogether, I don't suppose the airlines would like it. On the other hand, maybe the mood music will end up being so soothing that there won't be a problem at all. (Soma, anyone?)

What we don't need is for the daily comics to wind this up into a full-blown scare, with the result the real issues get pushed aside in favour of "pervert TSA agents spying on women" headlines...



'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5622 times:



Quoting Argonaut (Reply 7):
Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
Most of all I highly doubt the claim that the radiation used by the scanners is "harmless". X-rays are still x-rays and for the frequent flier they may pose a health risk, no matter what TSA say.

Good point. The most frequent fliers of all are airline crews. I wonder if there are any of you out there with a point of view on this?

Forget about the flight crews, they usually only have to go through security once a day. The real problem existsfor all airport employees, who work both landside and in the sterile area. E.g. I have to get security checked up to a dozen times a day, e.g. every time I return to the line from our hangar or if I have business inside the terminal (landside), even if it is only to go to the airport restaurant for lunch.
I don't fancy to be x-rayed 5-10 times a day, no matter what the manufacturer of the equipment says.

Jan


User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5622 times:
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Fall the opponents out there I say get over it! If you've got nothing to hide then just get in the damn thing and shut up. If anything it's less invasive than some dude groping you up and down! If it makes us safer than I say go for it. I've been through the machine at BWI and it really wasn't that bad. It actually saved some time too!

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5566 times:



Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 11):
Fall the opponents out there I say get over it! If you've got nothing to hide then just get in the damn thing and shut up. If anything it's less invasive than some dude groping you up and down! If it makes us safer than I say go for it. I've been through the machine at BWI and it really wasn't that bad. It actually saved some time too!

So, how often do you have to go through security per week? Maybe once a month in average?
We are not talking about somebody seeing us in the nude (I couldn't care less), but about repeated x-ray exposure.

Jan


User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

I don't like it. One of my classmates in an Aviation security class suggested something I thought made sense. Why not have the body image be in the same color as the background so it blends in and only the weapons show up.

User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5543 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):

I'm going to stick to my original statement until someone proves to me that airport security scanners are killing people from radiation poisoning. Honestly, people, get over it! Breathing the air outside on the curb with all the car exhaust is probably worse for you than the flipping screeners!


User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5534 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
So, how often do you have to go through security per week? Maybe once a month in average?
We are not talking about somebody seeing us in the nude (I couldn't care less), but about repeated x-ray exposure.

You probably get more radiation naturally from the Sun than you do in the airport or from flying...

Yearly radiation from natural sources: 300-500 millirems
Flying across the country: 1.5 milirems

What a crisis  sarcastic 



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5496 times:



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
I don't have an issue with it, and if we look at usage statistics from PHX, neither do 90% of people. It's just a small 10% minority who don't like it. At PHX, the image was never at full resolution so body parts couldn't be seen (something both articles above conveniently left out). The image is deleted immediately after inspection anyway.

I can think of another "small" minority some decades ago who didn't like what was happening to them. I guess because they were only a "small" minority and the rest of the country in qestion was undeniably benefiting, the ends justified the means.

"At PHX, the image was never at full resolution..."

a) how do you know (presumably you are a TSA employee?),
b) if true, then there's no need to have the "full resolution" capability, right? Permanently dump it.

Anyone care to guess what's next?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5424 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I don't order routine chest X-rays on my patients precisely because I want to limit their radiation exposure. Even if a CXR has very little radiation.

Is there any evidence to suggest that even, say, monthly chest x-rays have a deleterious effect?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1940 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

Sorry fellas, I am a big guy and I dont like ANYONE seeing any sort of image of my bare body, I will gladly take a pat down and wand.....Sorry but I really do think this is going a bit too far. Im not buying into the KoolAide school of thought that says, "Well whatever will make us safer, I'll go along with it...."

I would imagine that those of you that seem to be telling others to just get over it, probably have the kinds of bodies that if it legal youd all be parading around in the nude showing off all your business anyway.....

I figure if the the Magnetometer isnt strong enuff then they can pat me down and wand me......

Even tho I hate the ACLU with a passion, where are they on this subject??????


Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

I had it done at PHX when I was SSSS. It took literally 3 seconds and I was on my way. I'd much rather do that than have someone wand or frisk me. I didn't see it as an invasion of privacy at all, I just saw it as a more convenient necessary evil.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5402 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 17):
a) how do you know (presumably you are a TSA employee?),

Because I read all the articles when they first introduced it and saw the sample images they released.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineJoecanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5393 times:

I definitely would like to see the research on the safety of this device with prolonged and/or repeated exposure. For the most part though, if it speeds things up, I'm all for it.

As for the privacy aspect, I'd rather be full body scanned than have some random security dude fondling the lads...



What the...?
User currently offlineAPYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 842 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

They have some of these at LHR Terminal 4 and passengers are invited to use them. Using them often cuts out some of the queuing.


We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5732 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5350 times:



Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
Most of all I highly doubt the claim that the radiation used by the scanners is "harmless". X-rays are still x-rays and for the frequent flier they may pose a health risk, no matter what TSA say.

I guarantee you your flight across the country will give you a greater x-ray exposure than these machines will.

Quoting 764 (Reply 3):
Don't forget that people are afraid of the consequences if they object to being scanned.

Which is ignorance to the extreme (kinda like how people still don't know about the liquids rule). You get patted and wanded, just like before. And it's clearly explained (in most cases) that you have a choice: the pat down or the scanner.

Quoting 764 (Reply 3):
Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
The image is deleted immediately after inspection anyway

Or so they say. But who can be sure?

That's the only problem I have with it: who watches the watchers?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I want detailed dosimetry reports and I want them posted at every single security checkpoint with comparisons to routine medical imaging procedures (Chest and dental X-rays).

Already done, at least in PHX.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePlunaCRJ From Uruguay, joined Nov 2007, 576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5345 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 14):
I don't like it. One of my classmates in an Aviation security class suggested something I thought made sense. Why not have the body image be in the same color as the background so it blends in and only the weapons show up.

What about non-metallic weapons? The´d blend with the background as well making them invisible. That´s not the idea.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 19):
Sorry fellas, I am a big guy and I dont like ANYONE seeing any sort of image of my bare body, I will gladly take a pat down and wand.....Sorry but I really do think this is going a bit too far.

How many passengers will the TSA agent screen per day? Per year? Believe me, the poor agent will soon lose track of all the anonymous bodies he sees.


25 MD11Engineer : We are not talking about the passenger, who gets scanned maybe once a week (if he is afrequent flyer), but about accumulated doses for people who hav
26 Maverick623 : Please enlighten me on who exactly has to go thru this machine several times a day?
27 Argonaut : See this earlier post:
28 Maverick623 : Less than 1 microrem, which even if you go through the machine 10 times a day (which simply does not happen) is still less than spending 20 minutes a
29 Maverick623 : Except he leaves out that he will never need to be x-rayed that many times a day. It's voluntary, and only used for those who are selectees or alarm.
30 Argonaut : Unless the TSA really doesn't believe people could try that (yeah, right!), then presumably those are exactly the parts of you they're going to pay t
31 Maverick623 : They need to get over themselves... if they think they're that unattractive that a mindless TSA agent is going to care... they've got bigger problems
32 Post contains links IAD51FL : Here is a link to a page on the AMS airport site. On the bottom is a PDF link to another informational document. "The Security staff member (image ana
33 DocLightning : For chest X-rays I'm not sure. I know that having five CT scans of the head in your life pretty much guarantees that you will get cataracts. The fact
34 MD11Engineer : X-rays for medical reasons, --> OK. Radiation exposure as a side effect of work, e.g. in a nuclide lab, a nuclear power station, uranium mine, as pil
35 Tcv : Ok. All passengers are now required to be unconscious during air travel. You will be given a pill or valium drip at the security check point and will
36 Lowrider : Having been through the nefarious device in Amsterdam, I found it was not that big a deal. It was over so quickly and anonymously, I really didn't eve
37 VV701 : Two technologies are used in this type of equipment. One is back-scatter low intensity x-rays. This uses a low intensity x-ray reflection technique r
38 Argonaut : Either you are seriously missing the point...or being extremely, extremely obtuse. Surely a woman has the right not to have it exposed to some "mindl
39 DocLightning : Where do I sign up? filler filler filler and a bit more filler.
40 JoeCanuck : Surely a probing by some stranger in an airport can't possibly be less intrusive than this technique. I've done lots of international travelling and I
41 DocLightning : Unfortunately, if you want to fly, you have to submit to a search, so no matter whether it's this machine or a hand search, they are going to find th
42 FlashFlyGuy : 56 years ago actually May 2nd, 1952 - BOAC Comet 1 - London to Johannesburg. Extremely obtuse, would be my take. I was thinking something else -- but
43 Tcv : Reading the airdisasters database, I see that some flights were taken down by dynamite. Why weren't these style measures put in place then? Or were th
44 CVG2LGA : WTF does any of that have to do with the X-RAY IMAGE??? I'm fat too but what the hell. They aren't seeing me naked in a room full of mirrors. I think
45 Maverick623 : I've answered your health questions. As far as privacy: Pat down or x-ray.... they'll figure it out. Tell you what.... I don't want TSA looking throu
46 DocLightning : I dunno. I'm an adult. I'm sexually active. I travel with condoms if I think there's the slightest chance I might get lucky where I'm going. And I ho
47 IAD51FL : And where does she enjoy traveling to? May have to take a few more trips Chris
48 767Lover : I think all the worries are much ado about nothing. It's not like the scanners are as a revealing as a photograph--it's more like a sculpture, and wit
49 Cubsrule : If it cut security wait times by 80% and eliminated the need for any human interaction at the checkpoint for most travelers, would it be worth it? We
50 Argonaut : What a long way this thread has come...to think it all began with my mother-in-law
51 VV701 : Please be good enough to thank your mother-in-law on my behalf!
52 Thegooddoctor : Yawwwn. Fly more, whine less.
53 DocLightning : The problem with security is that people keep forgetting that the point of security is...security. The point of security isn't to confiscate stuff. T
54 Cubsrule : How do you do that without installing them? So somebody who flies a transcon a week is looking at about 150 millirems per year, which starts to sound
55 DocLightning : You install them in limited places and test them. And if they don't work, then you don't use them.
56 Tsaord : No amount of airline security will ever make people happy. Try to make something work and people complain, yet if we do nothing people will still comp
57 DocLightning : So I think that the way we should handle security is the same way we handle medicine. You do trials. In airline security it's easier because you can a
58 Post contains links Luv2cattlecall : Great idea! And let's approve a hoddle of IHOP pancake syrup to treat restless leg syndrome until someone PROVES that it's ineffective... I remember
59 YWG747 : I have no issues what so ever. I know that I have nothing to hide when I am flying. Unfortunately, not everyone is like that hence the need for these
60 Rigo : Thins seems to be the real issue. I, for one, don't subscribe to today's ubiquitous safety hysteria. Safety is important, but personally I value libe
61 Cubsrule : That's exactly what is happening. It's also exactly what happened with the air-puff bomb detection devices, and the trial resulted in those machines
62 DocLightning : You do have to watch out for that attitude, though. The Founding Fathers warned against the "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" ph
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