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BA Will Lease 767/777 A/c Due 787 Delays  
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11206 times:

BA's talks of compenstion with boeing are advanced. It would be highly un professional to tell you how much they are getting but Boeing will also source extra 767-300 and possibly 777-200 aircraft to allow BA to expand it's operation as it had planned for when the 787 was introduced.

At present the exact number of aircraft has not been agreed on. However BA believe they will have to keep there existing 767-336 a/c in service 12 - 18 month longer than they had planned

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11188 times:

How will this affect BA's operations?
Do we know when these extra aircraft will be sourced and leased to BA because I didnt think there were that many 777's available.
One of my worries is will the cabins be the same as BA as its going to cost a lot of time/ money to refit these aircraft witht he BA product.

Thanks for the info BALHRWWCC



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11120 times:



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 1):
Do we know when these extra aircraft will be sourced and leased to BA because I didnt think there were that many 777's available.

At the moment details are sketchy this is what is on the table so far but not signed or sealed by any means but they will enter into service in 2010 the same time the 787's where due. They will start leaving the fleet in 2012/13. Remember there are currently 7 ex BA 767-336 with QF. There UK regs where G-BNWE/F/G/J/K/L and P Not sure If BA have leased or sold them but if they are leased they might see about getting them back to the uk.

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 1):
One of my worries is will the cabins be the same as BA as its going to cost a lot of time/ money to refit these aircraft witht he BA product.

Some of this cost will be covered by Boeing compensation. Also they are gonna be around for a couple of years so it will be worthwhile them

Also the word is that when BA are finished with the 767's they will buy them for cargo conversions


User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11029 times:

Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 2):
Also the word is that when BA are finished with the 767's they will buy them for cargo conversions

What do you mean they will buy them? Are they leased at the moment?

[Edited 2008-05-06 02:44:50]

User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10995 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 2):
Remember there are currently 7 ex BA 767-336 with QF. There UK regs where G-BNWE/F/G/J/K/L and P Not sure If BA have leased or sold them but if they are leased they might see about getting them back to the uk.

I thought that BA sold the 767's to QF last year. I could be wrong though and Im sure someone will correct me if I am Big grin

Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 2):
Also the word is that when BA are finished with the 767's they will buy them for cargo conversions

Will cargo need these aircraft? I thought they operated quite a newish fleet at the moment
The cargo operation is obviously growing which is always good



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineSpeedmarque From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10886 times:

How about some new-build 764s? Boeing are considering new build 767s as a result of 787 delays. BA 764s would look lovely!

User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10848 times:



Quoting Speedmarque (Reply 5):
How about some new-build 764s? Boeing are considering new build 767s as a result of 787 delays. BA 764s would look lovely!

Good Question. They would look brilliant in BA colours



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineLH4116 From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 1710 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10772 times:

Why couldn't BA lease some A330s as an intern solution until the 787s arrive? BTW some of their 767s aren't that old but i guess that the ones delivered in the early 90s must be replaced soon.


SAS Plus is Business Class made faux!
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7116 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10770 times:



Quoting Speedmarque (Reply 5):
How about some new-build 764s? Boeing are considering new build 767s as a result of 787 delays. BA 764s would look lovely!

Since Boeing lost the tanker deal what would be the reason to keep the line and all its necessary supply chain going, especially if they are having issues with the B-787 product. They are better off concentrating their resources on the new product and how to enhance it rather than producing a/c which some claim are "obsolete" by A-330 standards, if they go back to an "older" product it would be better to up the production rate on the B-777 line even further than their existing plans, whether they can do that is the big question.


User currently offlineVHHYI From Australia, joined Oct 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10691 times:



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 4):
I thought that BA sold the 767's to QF last year. I could be wrong though and Im sure someone will correct me if I am 

In fact they were owned by Bank of America and presumably QF now.



This Porsche is like an Airbus;an Engineering marvel, but without passion - Jeremy Clarkson
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7460 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10686 times:



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 4):
I thought that BA sold the 767's to QF last year.

Correct.

Quoting LH4116 (Reply 7):
Why couldn't BA lease some A330s as an intern solution until the 787s arrive?

I think it would not be BA but Boeing who arrange the supply of the aircraft. So the A330 is an unlikely choice.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10670 times:

How many other interim aircraft will Boeing have to provide, seeing that BA is a fairly recent customer for the 787! 100? 200? 300?

That's a lot of 767s or 777s! Would Boeing want to make that many 767s, bearing in mind their resale value is likely to be much diminished once the 787 enters service, and secondhand A330s start becoming available?



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13739 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10653 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Thread starter):
BA's talks of compenstion with boeing are advanced. It would be highly un professional to tell you how much they are getting

Very interesting information BALHRWWCC. I think no one would think of you as unprofessional if you could give us a guidance as to how much compensation is being talked about?



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineLukebaker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10488 times:



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 12):
I think no one would think of you as unprofessional if you could give us a guidance as to how much compensation is being talked about?

I would.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10493 times:
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Quoting Speedmarque (Reply 5):
How about some new-build 764s? Boeing are considering new build 767s as a result of 787 delays.

Boeing's currently only building one 767 per month and they have a 4-year backlog. I believe new-builds are out of the question for service in 2010.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
Since Boeing lost the tanker deal what would be the reason to keep the line and all its necessary supply chain going, especially if they are having issues with the B-787 product.

As above, they still have a 4-year backlog at current production rates. But, it must be expensive to keep a production line ticking over at one-per-month for that long.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 12):
I think no one would think of you as unprofessional if you could give us a guidance as to how much compensation is being talked about?

You might not think he was being unprofessional, but his employer certainly would.


The biggest problem for the airlines and Boeing is that the two planes Boeing might offer for interim lift while 787 deliveries are delayed, are either in short supply or high demand. Airlines will have to operate older, less efficient planes for longer. If 787s were also being purchased for expansion, those plans will be put back if suitable interim lift cannot be found (and it will be difficult). Lease rates and used prices will be firming by the day.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10478 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 2):
They will start leaving the fleet in 2012/13. Remember there are currently 7 ex BA 767-336 with QF. There UK regs where G-BNWE/F/G/J/K/L and P Not sure If BA have leased or sold them but if they are leased they might see about getting them back to the uk.

they were sold to a leasing company and as such are no longer BA owned.

As above, they are leased by QF, not owned by QF.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10465 times:

An interesting point regarding compensation for BA, is that they didn't place their order until September 27th 2007, 10 weeks after the roll out of what transpired to be a far from complete aircraft. If Boeing who must have been fully aware by then that a programme slippage was going to happen, had been upfront, the order would either have not been placed, or it would have been to a more realistic delivery schedule.

User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10416 times:



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 16):
If Boeing who must have been fully aware by then that a programme slippage was going to happen, had been upfront, the order would either have not been placed, or it would have been to a more realistic delivery schedule.

Correct, it was an order Boeing simply couldn't be seen to lose alongside the 748 snub.

Shamu



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10101 times:



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 7):
hy couldn't BA lease some A330s as an intern solution until the 787s arrive? BTW some of their 767s aren't that old but i guess that the ones delivered in the early 90s must be replaced soon.

Cost of training the crew for what would be a stop gap fleet would be to high. BA already have a division of it's cabin crew community who operate 747/767/777 aircraft so no conversion course would be required

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 12):

Very interesting information BALHRWWCC. I think no one would think of you as unprofessional if you could give us a guidance as to how much compensation is being talked about?

That is between Boeing and BA and nobody else. This is the companies involved's buisness and to put it nicely non of yours.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 3):
What do you mean they will buy them? Are they leased at the moment?

BA own them boeing may be interested in buying some if not all of them back for onward leasing

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
How many other interim aircraft will Boeing have to provide, seeing that BA is a fairly recent customer for the 787! 100? 200? 300?

Since it looks like the airline will not take delivery of it's first 787-836 until a date after which they should have had all there 836's and a couple of 936's reckon it will be around 10 aircraft


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10011 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Thread starter):
It would be highly un professional to tell you how much they are getting but

Yet its not unprofessional to start the topic? You can't have both...

Spill the beans for those who want to know!


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7460 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10002 times:



Quoting Lukebaker (Reply 13):
Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 12):
I think no one would think of you as unprofessional if you could give us a guidance as to how much compensation is being talked about?

I would.

I agree. But it would not be simply unprofessional. It would be extremely unprofessional and very dangerous for the perpetrator. Do you remember what happened to BA when VS sneaked on them after the two airlines exchanged data on ticket oil price surcharges?

Any published financial data excepting only fares can only be published in a way that makes it potentially equally easily available to all investors and potential investors simultaneously as it may impact the share price. Effectively this means either in a formal press release issued in the morning before the London Stock Exchange opens or in a formal document (such as an Annual Report) circulated to shareholders.


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13739 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10005 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 18):
This is the companies involved's buisness and to put it nicely non of yours.

I know but it would still be nice to know.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12421 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9980 times:

So, given the strong rumors that "wave 2" A380s will be delayed and production ramp will not be as steep, will BA end up having to keep the 747s running longer than planned?

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 16):
An interesting point regarding compensation for BA, is that they didn't place their order until September 27th 2007, 10 weeks after the roll out of what transpired to be a far from complete aircraft. If Boeing who must have been fully aware by then that a programme slippage was going to happen, had been upfront, the order would either have not been placed, or it would have been to a more realistic delivery schedule.

It's clear at least the engineering side of Boeing would have known they had no chance of making the schedule at that point in time, but also I think Boeing would not know how to make a realistic schedule till the full impact of many of the issues was evaluated, and it could very well be that evaluation wasn't complete.

In retrospect, that rollout was a complete sham. Empty shells being held together with fasteners from Home Depot. Then they intentionally flooded a production line designed for a few thousand parts with tens of thousands of parts. It seems they've really lost their senses. I've been a big fan of Boeing in the past, but now I'm officially neutural: I'm now an equal opportunity booster/basher!  Smile



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30859 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9915 times:
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A few points...

Will be interesting to see if Boeing cannot interest BA in some 77Ws to deflect an A350-1000 order.

I expect the 767 production rate will be raised, though it will have to be in stages to allow both Boeing and the suppliers to ramp up. Airlines still want it (otherwise they would not accept them as interim compensation) and well-maintained, low-mileage 767s could find homes with new airlines or the pax-to-cargo conversion market.

And since Boeing was not willing to take a bath to put the 747-8 into BA's fleet, I don't expect they were willing to do the same with the 787. So I remain skeptical they knowingly lied to BA to land the order, knowing they could "bribe" them with shedloads of compensation after the fact.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9837 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
I expect the 767 production rate will be raised, though it will have to be in stages to allow both Boeing and the suppliers to ramp up. Airlines still want it (otherwise they would not accept them as interim compensation)

The order books speak for themselves; airlines do not want the 767; they want the 787; unfortunately however some might just have to accept a few 767's in the interim

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
So I remain skeptical they knowingly lied to BA to land the order,

Unless the Boeing sales dept and senior management were unaware of the state of the prototype 787 as at September 27th when BA's order was announced, they were hardly being truthful.


25 Stitch : They were aware that LN001 was an empty shell. Their plan and belief was that putting a lot more man-hours on the project would allow them to complet
26 Justloveplanes : I agree, Boeing had no idea in September they were facing an 18 month delay plus a slower production ramp. No idea. They only just bought Vought this
27 Bongodog1964 : They may not have known that the delay was 18 months, but they certainly either knew there was a sizeable delay, or were burying their heads in the s
28 Jfk777 : Remember BA ordered 4 777-200ER plus 4 options for expansion before the 787/A380 orders last fall. Given the tight market for 777ER's I doubt the used
29 Columba : I agree, the roll-out was a ridiculous but that happens if the PR department has more to say than engineers. Boeing wanted to steal some thunder from
30 Brilondon : I don't think that this kind of information would be made public and if BALHRWWCC made this information public he would put his job in jeopardy.
31 Manfredj : Sheeesh...building additional 767's just to hold over an airline until the real product arrives. And what do you do with the 767's after they are repl
32 CHRISBA777ER : Agreed - I'd be surprised if this were the case. Incredibly hard thing to keep out of the press, and once it leaks it destroys Boeing's credibility i
33 Kaitak744 : BA did not order any A350s. Only A380s at this point. You know who has good RR 777-200ERs and would be somewhat willing to get rid of them? Singapore
34 WildcatYXU : BA is getting the A350? I guess I missed something around here.
35 CHRISBA777ER : Wait and see - they are renewing their 744 and early 772 fleets and the order will come before this time next year I understand. A350-900 and/or A350
36 CHRISBA777ER : Please explain what you are on about here. How are the A380 delays relevant? What on earth do you mean by "I hope this is a fair game" - do you mean
37 WildcatYXU : Chris, for a guy with BA 777 in his nickname you look quite happy with BA purchasing Airbus aircraft...
38 Columba : I believe they will but so far we can only speculate.
39 CHRISBA777ER : I'm gutted they didnt go for 77Ws to be honest mate - awesome plane. I personally think the A332 is a better fit for interim lift as it can go everyw
40 Boeing74741R : I believe that both the 767 and A330 will soon be like gold dust to the cargo carriers such as FedEx. They can't keep flying DC-10s and A300s forever
41 Post contains links Astuteman : Early frames, perhaps, but it appears that the slower production ramp up may push later 787's out to 2.5 years (30 months) late..... e.g. http://www.
42 Manfredj : In fairness to Airbus, Boeing's 787 orders are much higher than the 380, so the impact will be greater on Boeing's part. I'm not saying the affected
43 VV701 : There ias a lot of comment in this thread about where and what interim aircraft BA will be able to find. It is suggested that they might fill the gap
44 Astuteman : On A-net? By A380 standards, the scrutiny has barely started..... Airbus are desperately trying to ramp up the A330/A340 line (and in fairness, seem
45 YULWinterSkies : Well, as these will only be compensations for the 787 delays, Boeing will subsidize them somehow. And if they "give" some to BA, others may get some
46 Geo772 : As I see it any interim capacity will likely be provided by Boeing metal. My reasons: The compensation package is because of the late delivery of a Bo
47 ZuluTime : Most likely option is that some more of the short-haul 767s will be moved across to long-haul to provide the lift that BA needs. There is some concern
48 Babybus : I think we can guess that this is going to be a gigantic pay-out from Boeing. That should balance the books for BA nicely for a number of years to co
49 AIR MALTA : Where did you hear that?!
50 BrianDromey : First flight may be 18months but but customers are already saying they will be waiting 30 months for their 787s, or 2.5 years. Interestingly the A380
51 VV701 : The subject of compensation has, of course, been much discussed here first for late deliveries of the 380 and now the 787. But - correct me if I am wr
52 Burkhard : This 2012 Olympics argument is a very hard one. If Boeing screws this, they are in deep troubles, not only with BA, but with many airlines who do no l
53 TristarSteve : The keeping in service of the A320-211 is almost directly a consequence of the B757 going to openskies. If you look at the total number of short haul
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