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AA To Berlin From Chicago In '93  
User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

I just read on another post an excerpt from an article from 1993 saying that American was going to discontinue its year old service from Chicago to Berlin (I would have pasted the excerpt here but I cant figure out how to cut and paste on a Mac, but its in one of the replies in the "IB to DFW" discussion thread).

I have never heard of this service before !!! Was this the only non-stop that the city saw over the Atlantic until Delta and Continental started their respective services to JFK and EWR a few years back. Did Lufthansa, or perhaps another American carrier ever have non-stop transatlantic flights (Pan Am or TWA perhaps).

Does anyone know much about this AA route such as what equipment flew it etc. I find it amazing that it took almost 13 years for the city to finally get another transatlantic connection, I guess you could say that the AA flight was a bit premature, by almost 15 years !!!

[Edited 2008-05-07 10:12:44]

[Edited 2008-05-07 10:13:45]

[Edited 2008-05-07 10:14:11]

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3682 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Thread starter):
Did Lufthansa, or perhaps another American carrier ever have non-stop transatlantic flights (Pan Am or TWA perhaps).

LH flew IAD-TXL for a short time in 2001; 6w A340-300.

Quoting Thestooges (Thread starter):

Does anyone know much about this AA route such as what equipment flew it etc.

Daily 767-200ER, IIRC.



a.
User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3659 times:

So if American and Lufthansa both failed with their flights, what have made Continental and Delta successful, is it because the economy in Berlin has improved significantly or because they fly to New York City instead of Washington DC and Chicago ???

And does anyone know exactly how well those CO and DL flights are doing ? I know Delta has downgraded a lot of its flights from JFK to 757's but has kept Berlin a 767-300. Hasn't there also been rumours of them starting ATL ???


User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3612 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Thread starter):
I have never heard of this service before !!! Was this the only non-stop that the city saw over the Atlantic until Delta and Continental started their respective services to JFK and EWR a few years back. Did Lufthansa, or perhaps another American carrier ever have non-stop transatlantic flights (Pan Am or TWA perhaps).

Pan Am flew to Berlin for many years after World War 2, first using THF before moving to TXL. In the late 1980's or early 90's, Delta took over the JFK-TXL route formally operated by Pan Am. It didn't last and Delta pulled out around 1994 or 1995, re-entering the market in 2005. I think DL might have even used former Pan Am A310's on the route at one time? I think I recall seeing the photographs?

Today, a believe LTU/Air Berlin also operate a couple Trans-Atlantic flights from TXL, although they may be seasonal? I think they fly between TXL and RSW, as well as The Dominican Republic.

Quoting Thestooges (Reply 2):
So if American and Lufthansa both failed with their flights, what have made Continental and Delta successful, is it because the economy in Berlin has improved significantly or because they fly to New York City instead of Washington DC and Chicago ???

For one, DL and CO flights connect TXL with both airlines respective Hub cities of JFK, and EWR. There are a lot more connection opportunities for potential passengers to connect to. Also, at least in the case of CO, they are utilizing a much smaller aircraft, the 757, as they are also doing on many more Trans-Atlantic routes with less demand such as those in Scandinavia and the U.K. These are the kind of routes that might be uneconomical to fly with with a larger aircraft, but become profitable using a smaller one with less seats to fill. This can make all the difference in success for routes such as EWR-TXL.

I don't know how the two NYC-Berlin flights are doing, but I've flown on the Delta flight about four times and only one of those flights had empty seats.


User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

PWM2TXLHopper, thanks for the info, its interesting to see that the Delta flight is always so full from your experiences. I also read on your profile that you work in hostels in Berlin, which ones? I've stayed at quite a few over there and work in a hostel in London myself.

User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3569 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Reply 2):
it because the economy in Berlin has improved significantly or because they fly to New York City instead of Washington DC and Chicago ???

IMO it is a bit of both. Even though AA has lots of domestic feed to ORD that combined with the O&D traffic was simply not enough. At the time TXL and the former eastern states of the unified Germany were in pretty bad shape economically and Berlin had not yet started the rebuilding boom now going on and its reputation as being one of the hippest cultural capitals of the EU wasn't even on the radar yet by even the most optamistic Berlin boosters.

I worked for AA during the TXL days. The flight was usually pretty heavily booked but not nearly as heavily as the FRA, or MUC flights. The premium cabins were never full at all. I was in training with the first TXL agents at the DFW charm farm.

AA had very ambitious plans for ORD TATL at the time. However with the cooling post 1'st Gulf War economy it wasn't sustainable. Hence the reason I am no longer an AA agent. I do miss those days.


User currently offlineFlyingJHawk From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 88 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

My wife and I flew this route in October 1993. Left ORD with a stop in DUS then on to TXL.

User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3541 times:



Quoting FlyingJHawk (Reply 6):
My wife and I flew this route in October 1993. Left ORD with a stop in DUS then on to TXL.

Are you sure of that? I worked for AA in the 90's, and was briefly a ticket agent in TXL. Our flights were definitely non-stop to and from ORD, on a 3-class 767-200ER.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5955 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3530 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Thread starter):
Does anyone know much about this AA route such as what equipment flew it etc

If I remember right it was a 763 that routed ORD-DUS-TXL-DUS-ORD, I don't think that TXL ever had service from AA that was nonstop to/from the US.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3532 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
LH flew IAD-TXL for a short time in 2001; 6w A340-300.

I flew this route once in late May 2001. 9/11 killed it off for good. It was a coup for Berlin at the time and was launched with much fanfare.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 3):
Delta took over the JFK-TXL route formally operated by Pan Am. It didn't last and Delta pulled out around 1994 or 1995, re-entering the market in 2005.

Actually, Delta flew this route until 1997 I believe. I know I met some people at the airport who flew over on it about that time in the spring. The last aircraft they were using was a 767-300ER.

I'd say that the resurgence of this route owes to the factors noted about and the fact that Berlin is now much more of a united city (at least physically, if not psychologically) and is now fully the seat of German government. It's able to sustain more Transatlantic business and the connecting passenger make the flights viable.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando (formerly Berlin)



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineHMan From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

I believe that United served TXL some time in the 90's, too.

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5955 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3503 times:



Quoting HMan (Reply 10):
I believe that United served TXL some time in the 90's, too.

They did via LHR with a 727, the flight was discontinued upon UA and LH forming their initial alliance. UA actually leased the 4 LHR slots pairs to LH that it had used to operate TLX/MUC/FRA/HAM as part of the deal.

After AA pulled out of DUS/TXL UA picked up ORD-DUS for a time and then transferred it to IAD before cutting it all together.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineHypercott From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3493 times:

In this thread (in German, sorry) on berlin-spotter.de, load factors for both the CO and the DL flight are posted regularly. I keep an eye on this, since I have a private interest (family) in seeing the DL and CO flights continuing. In fact, I just took the DL flight this Sunday.

The LFs are not great, but not terribly bad either: for 2006, DL had 87% and CO 74%.


User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3448 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Reply 4):
I also read on your profile that you work in hostels in Berlin, which ones? I've stayed at quite a few over there and work in a hostel in London myself.

At the best hostel in Europe, The Circus.... www.Circus-Berlin.de A friend of mine is one of the owners. I'll go back in August for another few years there again.


User currently offlineAirlittoralguy From France, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3376 times:

Does someone has the schedule of this flight ? (flight number plus departure times from ORD and TXL ) ? Your help will be really appreciated.


Normandie : La r�©unification, maintenant ! http://www.mouvement-normand.com/
User currently offlineClipperBerlin From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Hello everybody,

I will try and sum up my memories concerning flights from TXL to the US in the early 90s.

Pan Am:
- PA used to fly to JFK with an A310-200/300 regularly before the reunification
- Operations to Berlin were ceased in 1990.


Delta:
- Delta took over the A310s of PA and continued flying them into JFK.
- The B763 were used on flights to Atlanta at times with a stop in HAM.
- Both flights were operated daily.
- Operations to Berlin were ceased in 1997 I believe.
- Before Delta stopped serving JFK they did a tag on to WAW. (JFK-TXL-WAW)


TWA:
- The airline used the B763 and the L1011 for flights to Boston, JFK and Washington (not at the same time!). The flights were operated via Brussels, thus the final destination "didn´t really" matter since there were a lot of TWA connections in BRU.
- Operations to Berlin were ceased in the mid 90s.

United:
- United never flew to TXL with heavy equipment. They used their B727 daily for flights to LHR and onward connections using bigger metal.
- Operations to Berlin were ceased when United entered Star.

American Airlines:
- The service of AA to Berlin didn´t last very long. I would say about three years.
- The flights definitely were nonstop in the beginning.

Lufthansa:
- In the early 90s there was a service with an A310 via DUS to JFK. These flights didn´last long at all.
- The A342 service to Washington in 2000 was LHs next try but 9/11 killed this flight too.

I have a lot of old timetables from that time (somewhere in the basement) and can provide you with more accurate data if asked for.

Cheers

Florian


User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

I actually flew Berlin-Newark on Lufthansa in 1992. It was an A310-300 via Hamburg.
A Delta L1011-500 departed Berlin at the same time, landed in Hamburg at the same time, then proceeded to Atlanta.


User currently offlineClipperBerlin From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2889 times:



Quoting Mats (Reply 16):
I actually flew Berlin-Newark on Lufthansa in 1992. It was an A310-300 via Hamburg.
A Delta L1011-500 departed Berlin at the same time, landed in Hamburg at the same time, then proceeded to Atlanta.

You are right and I was wrong the A310 of LH was going via HAM to EWR and not via DUS. The Tristar must have been a replacement for the B763. From time to time we saw the L1011 from Delta in Berlin when they were bringing the NFL teams to town for pre-season games. Besides that I forgot to mention Tower Air flying to MIA from SXF once a week. That flight lasted about two years.


User currently offlineAirlittoralguy From France, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2846 times:

Florian :

Please can you post the schedule of DL ATL flight ( flight numbers and times of departure from ATL and TXL) as well as American ORD flight ?

Thank you by advance.



Normandie : La r�©unification, maintenant ! http://www.mouvement-normand.com/
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2832 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Thread starter):
Did Lufthansa, or perhaps another American carrier ever have non-stop transatlantic flights (Pan Am or TWA perhaps).

LH used an A310 to EWR via HAM in the 1990s



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

Now that I think about it, there was no Tristar. It was a 767-300 on Delta from Berlin/Tegel to Hamburg and on to Atlanta.

A couple of years prior (around 1990), I flew on Pan Am from Berlin to New York/JFK via Frankfurt. It was a 727-200 from Berlin to Frankfurt, a 747 from Frankfurt to New York. There was a Delta L15 next to us at the gate in Frankfurt; it was headed to Orlando.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2731 times:



Quoting ClipperBerlin (Reply 15):
- In the early 90s there was a service with an A310 via DUS to JFK. These flights didn´last long at all.



Quoting Columba (Reply 19):

LH used an A310 to EWR via HAM in the 1990s

I remember clearly LH's EWR-HAM-Berlin flights with the A310.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offline28L28L From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

AA flew TXL from 8 June 1992 until 1 April 1994

User currently offlineClipperBerlin From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2591 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 21):
I remember clearly LH's EWR-HAM-Berlin flights with the A310.



Quoting ClipperBerlin (Reply 17):
You are right and I was wrong the A310 of LH was going via HAM to EWR and not via DUS.



User currently offlineFlyingJHawk From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 88 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2568 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 7):

Are you sure of that? I worked for AA in the 90's, and was briefly a ticket agent in TXL. Our flights were definitely non-stop to and from ORD, on a 3-class 767-200ER.

Absolutely positive.


25 MAH4546 : I'm looking at the press releases announcing the service, and there is absolutely no mention of DUS. In fact, it explictly says non-stop. AA never se
26 ORDagent : It was AA 24/23 nonstop ORD - TXL
27 Gecmd11 : LH also had 3 flights per week IAD-CGN with the A310-300 in the early 90's. flew this flight once with about 15 other people, didn't last long.......
28 Delta777Jet : The AA flight ORD-TXL nonstop for the summer period of 1992 but already in the winter 92/93 switched to ORD-DUS-TXL-DUS-ORD flown with a B-767-200ER !
29 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : The only AA photo at TXL in the database, dated April 24, 1993. View Large View MediumPhoto © Rico Reuter
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