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The 'creaking' US Airline Industry  
User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

Interesting article, and from the times I've flown to the US or US domestic, I have to wholeheartedly agree with this writer's opinions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme..._our_own_correspondent/7389575.stm

Thoughts??

//Milan320


I accept bribes ... :-)
86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6686 times:

there's certainly some truth in this article.... and no, the sorry state of service onboard US carriers is not alone just due to fuel... in other parts of the world oil is at the same level, and service is certainly better.

I think one thing to start would be to require airlines to provide food and a hotel room if necessary in all kinds of delays, regardless of the reason (tech, ATC, weather, etc.) - it's done that way in the EU and in Australia, don't know about other parts of the world. But that might cause airlines to plan a realistic schedule that doesn't break totally down with the first few drops of rain for a start....



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6653 times:



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 1):
there's certainly some truth in this article.... and no, the sorry state of service onboard US carriers is not alone just due to fuel... in other parts of the world oil is at the same level, and service is certainly better.

Exact, it's been like this for years. I used to fly a lot to the US on business, and many times, even on trans-atlantic flights, many of the planes were decrepit, the food cold ... terrible.

Now, unfortunately, I just avoid visiting the US. The airlines and the security, have all but scared me completely away from visiting the US



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6581 times:



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 1):
I think one thing to start would be to require airlines to provide food and a hotel room if necessary in all kinds of delays, regardless of the reason (tech, ATC, weather, etc.) - it's done that way in the EU and in Australia, don't know about other parts of the world. But that might cause airlines to plan a realistic schedule that doesn't break totally down with the first few drops of rain for a start....

I think mainly the airlines should make clear if they do so, and for which tickets.

I have nothing against tickets with out ANY form or service but that they will fly you on the given plane, whenever that will be - and if there are long delays you have to hang around in yourself.

Other tickets might include basic service and insurance to pay cheap hotels in such cases, and First should give you a luxury suite.

Airlines cannot give any service that you do not pay for - and have to calculate in a surplus to their expenses.


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6571 times:

There are elements of truth to what the writer says. But, for example with crew shortages, I have rarely NOT had new crew come in under two hours, which while a pain, will usually get you where you need to go. In the alternative, I have often but put on other flights -- even other airlines -- right away.

I think the slow spiral in decline in general of services is what people object to. But part of that is people want something for nothing, which is another rant entirely.

But I do think we need Congress to pass a "Flyers Bill of Rights" more like what the EU has.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6505 times:

Scary stuff indeed. I would expect a report like that from an African country.

America gets it wrong by leaving everything up to business to sort out itself. As we can see, without laws and statutary operating precedures the whole place goes to pot.

If a flight doesn't go, for any reason, passengers should be compensated. As Haggis says...

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 1):
(it) might cause airlines to plan a realistic schedule that doesn't break totally down with the first few drops of rain for a start....



User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6497 times:



Quoting Davescj (Reply 4):
But part of that is people want something for nothing

in my opinion it's more like people getting spoiled by some companies offering prices below any responsible level just to gain market share....



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6386 times:

The same people who are complaining about airline service are the same ones who are complaining about high ticket prices. The simple fact is that nobody is willing to pay for that level of service in the States. Pimaris, Eos, National, etc. all tried to charge a premium for higher service, and they're all out of service. Even first class seating is slowly going away as the industry becomes commoditized.

You get what you pay for.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6297 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 5):
America gets it wrong by leaving everything up to business to sort out itself. As we can see, without laws and statutary operating precedures the whole place goes to pot.

You want to leave it up to the U.S. government to get it right? Them and the antiquated ATC system ARE part of the problem.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6227 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
Them and the antiquated ATC system ARE part of the problem.

Whoa, poor English there, Mayor, but I agree. They are not the entire problem but they are a significant reason why there are so many delays.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 5):
Scary stuff indeed. I would expect a report like that from an African country.

In fairness, I don't know that it is as bad as that article makes it seem. Not EVERY flight is late, although some airports and cities are more prone to delays than others. Living near NYC, all three major airports here can have delays on even good weather days, nevermind rainy or stormy days, but there are things you can do to mitigate this such as try and leave on the first flight out or only take direct flights where possible.

And having been to LHR on several occasions, is a British news outlet (I do respect the BBC) really qualified to be making criticisms of this country's air travel problems? My goodness, talk about false hope. I think every article I read about T5 said it was supposed to improve the passenger experience at Heathrow, instead I think it has been a shockingly rough couple of months even by LHR standards - at least there is still time to sort out some of the issues by summer. I like Heathrow for the variety of airlines and aircraft but it is never an easy airport to transit through... I can't imagine connecting flights there. Ouch. Whenever my travels take me to the UK, I prefer to go to MAN or even LGW where possible, because LHR is too much of a liability to me.

I'm not trying to turn attention away from the US airlines' many problems. It is sure to be a pretty rough summer, and soaring fuel prices are, in my opinion, only going to make service go further downhill. Delays are inevitable in a system that hit its peak performance numbers 20+ years ago, but it is still possible to get where you are going with only minimum fuss here on this side of the pond. Horror stories, as bad as they are, are still relatively few and far between.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6142 times:

This subject has been discussed to virtual ad nauseum here at a.net.

There is so much to blame to go around that it's hard to know where to start.

  • Someone in New York hiccups, and immediately all flights on the American east coast get delayed, as traffic has to be re-routed to one and only one route.

  • America's airspace hasn't been re-designed to handle jet traffic. That was in 1958. They can barely find enough vacuum tubes to run their computers, much less update anything!!

  • All 700 flights at a hub airport scheduled to depart between 7:30 PM and 7:45 PM are infinitely delayed because three drops of rain constitutes closing down one of the airport runways. Now instead of being able to have 60 landings per hour, only 20 can go on.

  • Airline employees on food stamps - heck, they're practically being sponsored by people in third world countries - who are told to take paycut after paycut but still treat the obnoxious passenger as if he paid full fare. Never mind how rude or gross his behavior is...oh, and if by some miracle your CEO who doesn't know his @$$ from a hole in the ground decides to jump ship leaving the rest of you to bail out your Titanic of an airline, be sure you chip in for his golden parachute!!

  • Wal-Mart flyers demanding Nordstrom's and Sak's 5th Avenue service. "Whaddya mean there's no meal? I paid (very little) good money for this $99 transcon flight!! I demand a Ruth Chris' steak!!"

  • Upgrades and frequent flyer points. Giving away the store. 20% of the plane pays for 80% of the costs...but not if everyone is on an upgrade.

  • ZERO dollars in America's total infrastructure. Crumbling and collapsing roads, bridges, railroad tracks are among the list of serious deficiencies that take priority over airport expansions. Add in NIMBY's who see no environmental damage from their 3 MPG Canyonero SUV but do see any airport expansion as "a threat to their childrens' future", and you'll never have facilities upgraded to meet the increasing demand.

    Lord knows I missed a bunch...thanks for letting me rant.



  • Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
    User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6098 times:



    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
    America's airspace hasn't been re-designed to handle jet traffic. That was in 1958. They can barely find enough vacuum tubes to run their computers, much less update anything!!

    Vacuum tubes? what are you talking about?



    "Did he say strap in or strap on?"
    User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5313 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6064 times:



    Quoting Miller22 (Reply 7):
    The simple fact is that nobody is willing to pay for that level of service in the States.

     checkmark  End of story. This is all you need to know.

    It leads to:

    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
    Wal-Mart flyers demanding Nordstrom's and Sak's 5th Avenue service. "Whaddya mean there's no meal? I paid (very little) good money for this $99 transcon flight!! I demand a Ruth Chris' steak!!"

    and

    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
    ZERO dollars in America's total infrastructure.



    User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6047 times:



    Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 1):
    there's certainly some truth in this article.... and no, the sorry state of service onboard US carriers is not alone just due to fuel... in other parts of the world oil is at the same level, and service is certainly better.

    Other parts of the world dont pay for their fuel in devalued USDs.


    User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
    Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5985 times:



    Quote:
    Vacuum tubes? what are you talking about?

    The ATC system is SO old that it is practically - if not in reality - using computer technology that dates from the 1950's and 1960's. Vacuum tubes, once the mainstay of "computer" technology (as well as all electronics) are as outdated as "Leave It To Beaver" or "I Love Lucy".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube

    One irony, and I can't vouch for its authenticity, is that ATC computers are SO old that modern hacking techniques don't apply...making them safer than other computer networks. Picture a modern Egyptian trying to communicate with King Tut and you get the picture. Can anyone verify this?



    Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
    User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13168 posts, RR: 78
    Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5963 times:

    It's been quite a few years since I've flown internally in the US, though much of what this reporter encounter happened to me.
    This was way before Sept 11th, so lighter security (which I found surprising at the time).

    Be assured that the BBC give a huge amount of prominence to UK transport screw ups, you almost pity the CEO of PR type put in front of Jeremy Paxman for an extreme grilling!
    This linked report is though, as stated, the writings of one correspondent, not part of an investigation, certainly I've not seen much else about the US internal airline industry, aside from very short pieces on those recent groundings.


    User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5832 times:



    Quoting Richierich (Reply 9):
    And having been to LHR on several occasions, is a British news outlet (I do respect the BBC) really qualified to be making criticisms of this country's air travel problems?

    Good post but, with all due respect, I don't quite understand your reference of 'really qualified' to make criticism???
    One can objectively criticise anything without having to be part of it, and actually being removed from it can certainly enhance objectivity. The BBC has nothing whatsoever to do with LHR so why would that be relevant being a news broadcaster?


    User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5819 times:



    Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 13):
    Other parts of the world dont pay for their fuel in devalued USDs.

    This statement is being quoted so often (not from yourself I might add), it seems to be being seen as the usual 'unfair competition' from foreign carriers. It's your $, you guys devalued it.


    User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4242 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5722 times:



    Quoting AirNZ (Reply 16):
    The BBC has nothing whatsoever to do with LHR so why would that be relevant being a news broadcaster?

    I know that some Americans may take offense to such criticism, even if they know some of it to be true. Quotes such as "Like much of America these days, the airline industry feels tired, worn down, and old" are bound to strike up some defensiveness in a lot of people I know, especially knowing one of the worst airports (it's arguable) in the world for delays, lost bags, appearance and service is on the other side of the Atlantic...

    Like I said, is the article all true? Perhaps somewhat - I can't speak for the author's personal experiences. But I can't help thinking those types of events are still rare and can be mitigated based on airport, carrier, etc.. I don't think you'll find those types of things are the norm on Southwest or JetBlue, for example, although they are not immune either. I can speak a little for the latter... I've had one misplaced bag in literally dozens of flights where I have checked bags, and even then it arrived an hour later on the next flight from JFK. I've had more flights on-time or reasonably close to arrival time than I have had significantly delayed. And I've yet to be bumped, although I know some carriers routinely overbook heavily. The delays are largely baked into the schedules these days and most carriers have gotten smarter about padding their schedules during peak periods. Its almost expected that a flight leaving a JFK gate at 7PM will not be airborne until 8PM, and even longer in bad weather or if deicing is required.

    I have no problem with the BBC and I find them a much more credible source for news that the laughable CNN or Fox News, but I know articles like this tend to strike deeper with some people than just which airport or airline is a problem. Part of this article hinted at the decaying American "way of life", something most Americans take very seriously and have a lot of pride in, no matter what.



    None shall pass!!!!
    User currently offlineCloudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 807 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5702 times:



    Quoting Miller22 (Reply 7):
    The same people who are complaining about airline service are the same ones who are complaining about high ticket prices. The simple fact is that nobody is willing to pay for that level of service in the States. Pimaris, Eos, National, etc. all tried to charge a premium for higher service, and they're all out of service. Even first class seating is slowly going away as the industry becomes commoditized.

    You get what you pay for.

    You know, I keep hearing this "the one's complaining about high ticket prices". When was the last time you heard any real customer complaining about the average advanced coach ticket, outside of the media and the critics who post away and have no real intentions of every buying a ticket? Sure people complain that they are stuck with crummy service because first class is more expensive by factors of 10 or more, but I don't really hear anyone saying airline tickets are too high. Heck, it costs nearly as much to get yourself to the airport than to fly to your destination! What people complain about is the service and value, and that is all about how bad a job the airlines do with their service instead of willing to make the effort to raise prices and improve their service.



    "Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
    User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5313 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5638 times:



    Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 19):
    I don't really hear anyone saying airline tickets are too high.

    Disagree, strongly.

    First, whether or not consumers say that, they act on it, by stubbornly refusing to pay even a few dollars more for superior service. Every single attempt, ever, by airlines to charge more on low-fare-class tickets for good service has met with failure.

    Second, I must be talking to very different people than you. Basically everyone I know whines about "ridiculously expensive airline tickets" whenever they have to purchase an eastern seaboard ticket costing more than $100 r/t or a transcon ticket costing more than $300 r/t. As you know, those are both unsustainable levels. But I think the flying public has become convinced that those levels are the threshold for reasonable value. It would take a few years of those sorts of fares essentially never being available, I think, before the perceptions would correct themselves.


    User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2027 posts, RR: 27
    Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5618 times:



    Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 1):
    I think one thing to start would be to require airlines to provide food and a hotel room if necessary in all kinds of delays, regardless of the reason (tech, ATC, weather, etc.) - it's done that way in the EU and in Australia,

    Please state the source for EU rules for paying for overnight/meal accommodations due to weather. The EU does not have the ability to force any carrier to do that. For delays that are the fault of the carrier, I can see it, but for "force majeure" type events...no way. Please tell us where we can find these rules.

    thanks baw716



    David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
    User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2241 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5610 times:



    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
    America's airspace hasn't been re-designed to handle jet traffic. That was in 1958. They can barely find enough vacuum tubes to run their computers, much less update anything!!

    Not true.

    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
    Wal-Mart flyers demanding Nordstrom's and Sak's 5th Avenue service. "Whaddya mean there's no meal? I paid (very little) good money for this $99 transcon flight!! I demand a Ruth Chris' steak!!"

    Oh so VERY true!!!!!

    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
    ZERO dollars in America's total infrastructure. Crumbling and collapsing roads, bridges, railroad tracks are among the list of serious deficiencies that take priority over airport expansions. Add in NIMBY's who see no environmental damage from their 3 MPG Canyonero SUV but do see any airport expansion as "a threat to their childrens' future", and you'll never have facilities upgraded to meet the increasing demand.



    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
    Lord knows I missed a bunch...thanks for letting me rant.

    Hey, this is pretty good stuff. You could do this on Leno.

    Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 14):
    The ATC system is SO old that it is practically - if not in reality - using computer technology that dates from the 1950's and 1960's. Vacuum tubes, once the mainstay of "computer" technology (as well as all electronics) are as outdated as "Leave It To Beaver" or "I Love Lucy".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube

    One irony, and I can't vouch for its authenticity, is that ATC computers are SO old that modern hacking techniques don't apply...making them safer than other computer networks. Picture a modern Egyptian trying to communicate with King Tut and you get the picture. Can anyone verify this?

    Absolutely none of this is true anymore. There is, however, a lot of vacuum tube mentality in the FAA management.



    I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
    User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5575 times:



    Quoting Richierich (Reply 18):
    I know that some Americans may take offense to such criticism, even if they know some of it to be true. Quotes such as "Like much of America these days, the airline industry feels tired, worn down, and old" are bound to strike up some defensiveness in a lot of people I know, especially knowing one of the worst airports (it's arguable) in the world for delays, lost bags, appearance and service is on the other side of the Atlantic...

    Again, another very informative and structured post and I certainly commend you....a great pity many others aren't.
    Yes, I can understand what you mean but, with all due respect, whether or not they take offence is largely irrelevant.
    No, I do not mean that in any way derogatory, but solely in the manner that taking offence does not relinquish the truth of any particular statement (in aviation or otherwise) and indeed, shows a definite inability to accept what that truth may be.
    Again, I perfectly understand what you mean but such people pointing fingers at LHR (as a form of said defensiveness) still doesn't hide the fact that the aviation industry in the US is in a hell of a mess. The article itself is not about LHR, and goodness knows that the BBC will certainly attack without hesitation it when necessary.
    I can understand some defensiveness and it's a perfectly natural attribute....however, when it starts to cloud reality that becomes a different matter.


    User currently offlineCloudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 807 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5484 times:



    Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 20):
    Disagree, strongly.

    First, whether or not consumers say that, they act on it, by stubbornly refusing to pay even a few dollars more for superior service. Every single attempt, ever, by airlines to charge more on low-fare-class tickets for good service has met with failure.

    And what superior services have been offered? What has been offered to the consumer that they should be willing to pay $30 more on airline A than airline B for whatever ticket is available to them instead of going with the cheaper ticket? Other than JetBlue, which in fact draw huge numbers of passengers to their airline, none has really offered and additional value that is relevant to the customer to make them willing to pay more.



    "Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
    25 Bwvilla : I think they do pay for fuel in USD. Just that their revenue from passengers, etc is mostly not in USD.
    26 P3Orion : What is your source on this? I am a controller at ORD ATCT and have no idea what you are talking about.
    27 1821 : WOW u guys in the US r really having trouble with the airline industry according to this BBC report. I though the airlines and airports in Greece were
    28 Laxintl : "Like much of America these days, the airline industry feels tired, worn down, and old. " As a US citizen, I whole heartedly agree...after 9/11, multi
    29 Davescj : One comment, You're braver than I am. One question, I haven't been to ORD since the new runway configuration was opened. How has it affected traffic
    30 Qantas787 : I believe tourism numbers have just been released to show record visitors to the USA, so I guess not everyone has been scared away.
    31 SeaBosDca : JetBlue has not drawn huge numbers of passengers because of its service. It's drawn huge numbers of passengers because its fares are usually cheaper
    32 Davescj : This is true, and the result is all the carriers are almost the same. However, speaking only for myself, I'll pay a slightly higher fare to stay on C
    33 Agill : Isn't that a little bit overdramatic. I mean yes you have to take off your shoes, you have to put your fingers on a reader and get a picture taken. I
    34 44k : It's not a report, but rather a rant from a biased, bitter reporter who obviously got stuck at ORD during a bad day. While I agree that the industry
    35 AgentXE1225 : Right. The ONLY things flying would be boxes in containers on cargo planes! However, I was told by the CO Help Desk that misconnecting passengers fro
    36 Post contains links Haggis79 : I guess as a EU citizen I have more knowledge about what abilities the EU has and what abilities it doesn't have, don't you think? Only two of the ma
    37 Babybus : This is due to the below cost tickets being sold and the weak dollar. All the Euro airlines are struggling to get a dominant market share in the open
    38 Davescj : As far as I know, Mexico and Canada are always treated as domestic for the purpose of the rule. I always think Mexico and Canada must find that inter
    39 ThirtyEcho : Guantanamo Airlines? I used to fly 3 and 4 times a week, both short and long haul, on business. I haven't set foot on an airliner since 2003, when I h
    40 Qantas787 : Reasons are irrelevant. Only numbers matter.
    41 Par13del : Best one I have seen on this thread, it shows what is really meant by "Open Skies" we know it should not mean competition. The US market is free and
    42 Saab2000 : It's not just about what's on board. The whole US experience is a shambles. Long lines at check-in, Unfriendly agents at check-in, TSA (need I say mor
    43 Skibum9 : I find statements like this hypocrytical. First, how many airline employees on this board shop at Walmart or Target? I would say that there is probab
    44 Saab2000 : BINGO!!!! Why is WN a profitable carrier? Good management. Motivated employees. Accountability. Efficient operation (something I just don't see much
    45 Gsosbee : There are two issues - the airlines and the government. On the airline side, there are to many of them and the legacy airlines are still working on a
    46 Mayor : In some places, there's no choice. Down here in Arkansas, that's especially true. WalMart is king and in alot of cases, the only game in town. As for
    47 AirNZ : Well, you just believe whatever you want to.....keep on burying your head in the sand and needing a 'reason' to avoid recognising reality. You're ser
    48 P3Orion : We are still using the same runway configuration. RWY 09L/27R will be commissioned this November. The RWY 10/28 extension will happen this year as we
    49 AgentXE1225 : Dave, I will say that from what passengers have told me, the outstations are far more generous than the hubs, and the agents much more agreeable and n
    50 Windowplease : The thing US domestic civil aviation reminds me of is Britain in the 1970s; when huge chunks of the economy were dominated by state-controlled dinosa
    51 Mayor : How long did BA operate under government protection? How long were slots at LHR protected for their use? Just wondered if it was conveniently forgott
    52 Jsnww81 : Part of the reason I think Americans might get defensive reading this article is because deep down, we know it's true. Our quality of life is eroding
    53 AirNZ : Sorry, but I'm not sure what this has to do with in relation to Windowplease's post 50 However to answer your question, until it was privatised in Fe
    54 Tango-Bravo : Much more than part of the reason... What's worse is that the U.S. legacy airlines have pandered to this mindset and, in various ways, conditioned cu
    55 Ssides : That is not true. The best empirical example of how some airlines have attempted to enhance service, but not been able to effectively charge a premiu
    56 Ocracoke : WN, the airline, is not operating in the black. It is currently losing money. WN, the oil company, is currently making money. Fortunately for WN, the
    57 Fonseca33 : I agree that we should invest much more on infrastructure, although it´s an exaggeration that we don´t invest in it. Billions are spent every month
    58 SeaBosDca : It's a mistake to assume that per capita income necessarily translates to standard of living when the income is at Western levels. Really, income abo
    59 Davescj : Except in the US, where it would cost MUCH more than 23%, and it would be even worse than it is now. Look as Mass. for an example of health care cost
    60 Fonseca33 : Standard of Living by definition is how much purchasing power, or real income, you have. Look up the definition. Obviously, most skilled immigrants d
    61 Par13del : When talking about airline travel experience in the US, everyone is aware that WN is the largest domestic carrier in the country? As for WN the oil co
    62 Gsosbee : THERE IS NO EXTRA MONEY. How high do you want your tax rate to go? We need less government, not more. Personally the prospect of a 50% upper tax rate
    63 Fonseca33 : Of course there is money. There are many programs that can be much more efficient, and many which can be ended all together, like Iraq and farm subsi
    64 SeaBosDca : No one, Democrat or Republican, has proposed anything like that. Democratic proposals, at most, involve returning to the top Clinton marginal tax rat
    65 Silverstreak : Like our medical system (industry if you will), the way that Americans use, work in, and govern the airline industry needs a total update. To do this
    66 Fonseca33 : It´s actually an extremely good indicator of quality of life. The countries with the lowest income per capita have the lowest quality of live. After
    67 Neverest : I am lucky to use Houston IAH frequently and can testify that whatever is written on this forum does not apply to this airport. I am sure there are ot
    68 Mayor : When comparing WN to the rest of the legacies, you do realize that it's comparing apples and oranges, right? If WN had a complete route system, such
    69 SeaBosDca : This is what I am talking about. Western European per capita incomes are past that point of diminishing returns. I believe American quality of life i
    70 AirNZ : Sorry, but what has that got to do with anything, or what point are you making except to look for a 'viable' excuse as to why the legacies can't comp
    71 Fonseca33 : Well this is totally subjective. Many people think otherwise, and others think like you. But I was referring more specifically to purchasing power, a
    72 Davescj : Taxes don't need to go up, we need to stop giving money away. If instead of writing checks to foreign governements and giving money away by the multi
    73 Tango-Bravo : And who is forcing the legacies to offer service "from everywhere to everywhere?" Moreover, I thought that service to small communities and internati
    74 Par13del : Maybe, just maybe, the legacies are hoping the US govt. would expand the essential air service route funding to routes like JFK-LAX or JFK-SFO or whe
    75 Dartland : Back to the article that started this thread --- it's completely ridiculous. A typical example of media over-hype. It happens in the US also, so I don
    76 Mayor : Would you rather the whole system was LCC's, covering only a portion of the states and the rest be damned? The legacies have always tried to be all t
    77 DLPMMM : And I suppose that Heathrow or CDG is a shining example of how a lot of statutes and laws improve service. I fly internationally alot (usually 20 to
    78 Skibum9 : Its not a question of what people want, it is what can the legacies afford to do. If their business model is not at least break-even, then they shoul
    79 SeaBosDca : I find your view of our infrastructure rather too rosy... The basics: if you try to drive at 75 mph on those highways anywhere near a major urban cen
    80 Dc863 : The US airline industry is a festering rotting mass.
    81 DocLightning : So I'm not the only one who noticed that the country seems to be in a state of decline? And that this may be completely irreversible?
    82 AA767400 : I sure is hell did not. Thank Bush my friend. Or would you like me to blame "You Kiwis" for your PM's screw ups? Love the reporter's statement here:
    83 Richierich : Point taken, thanks. I just know that an article like that written by a non-American is bound to fire up some emotion. This site is also well-known f
    84 Mayor : I wonder what he would rather the pilot had done?
    85 Davescj : I think you're right, we are declining. It is not irreversible, but our politicians spend more time shooting barbs at each other than they do working
    86 DocLightning : You hit the nail on the head. Oh yes, there is an interstate system. And it's poorly maintained. Repairs are conducted to prevent the roads from beco
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