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VRG Varig : Only 737s , No More 767s.  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 2 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5527 times:

According to speednews.com , Varig will return all 9 767s at year end , becoming an all 737 operator.

This means , the end of the long haul flights to Europe.Sad !

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTP727 From Brazil, joined May 2005, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Hello FCKC

They have to organize a lot of thing before flying international routes again. I believe they were losing money on every european flight, for many reasons: terrible schedule, product not matching the competition, pricing (5 weeks ago i payed three tickets to CDG, and RG's was only about R$ 100,00 cheaper than JJ's, with a much inferior product, for both Y and J classes - they went with JJ), no agreement with other airlines for connections, etc.

Gilson


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5162 times:

With 737s maybe Varig should try to borrow a page of the Copa book. Set up a hub in Manaus. It will have privileged access to Brazil which Copa does not have. Start with MAO flights to GRU, GIG, BSB, BEL, EZE, SCL, LIM on one end. At the other end place BOG, CCS, MIA, MCO, JFK, EWR.

If it can build a sustainable operation, then it can grow to add FOR, REC, SSA, CNF, UIO, SJO, CUN and IAH.

The MAO terminal would need some investment, which could be done wisely.


User currently offlineAguslamm From Argentina, joined Apr 2008, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5047 times:

MM too low OD raffic from MAO to support a hub. I believe GRU and GIG have proved to be the core of Brazilian aviation and nonstop service to these cities is a minimum requirement for survival.
Also, I am flying VRG EZE-GIG later this month on 763 both ways. When booking a seat, flights looked pretty full.
Sad to see VRG widebodies leave. I remember seeing 744, 743 and MD11 at EZE all at the same time back in the 90s.


User currently offlineSampa737 From Brazil, joined May 2005, 637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5033 times:

My first flight to Brazil was on a Varig 767 from Atlanta! And then she was the only airline I flew within Brazil for the longest time. I hate seeing this with Brazilian aviation. Well, still good to see the 737s flying over my home here in zona sul!

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 4939 times:



Quoting Aguslamm (Reply 3):
MM too low OD raffic from MAO to support a hub.

PTY has the same problem. Many routes COPA serves have insignificant local traffic.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4364 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4499 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
With 737s maybe Varig should try to borrow a page of the Copa book. Set up a hub in Manaus. It will have privileged access to Brazil which Copa does not have.

CM is rather sustaining cooperation agreements with G3 for the time being.
TACA is trying to lure the services supplied by RG and they are studying a possible memorandum of understanding between them.
The passengers of RG may utilize TA LIM-GRU and TA LIM-GIG plus other destinations out of LIM later. The travelers of TA should get to some Brazilian stations in mid-term by means of the operations offered by RG to BSB, REC and POA.
I put the back-up in Portuguese: http://news.taca.com/esp/nws/nwsbro.asp?key=888

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2146 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4473 times:



Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
According to speednews.com , Varig will return all 9 767s at year end , becoming an all 737 operator.

At year's end? I thought in an earlier posting they were cutting frequencies to MEX, CDG, MAD, etc. in May. Did this change?


User currently offlineEmptyarm From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 3958 times:



Quoting AF022 (Reply 7):

MAD's last flight will be tomorrow, 11th of May


User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 863 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

What types of 737s do they operate, how old, and how many? Thanks  Smile


Pilot: "Request push, which way should we face?" JFK Ground: "You better face the front, sir, or you'll scare the pax!"
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4364 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3758 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 9):
What types of 737s do they operate, how old, and how many?

I put two different sources, but they aren't consistent with themselves.

http://www.ch-aviation.ch/aircraft.php?search=set&airline=VRG&al_op=1

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Varig

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3678 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3669 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 9):
What types of 737s do they operate, how old, and how many? Thanks

It's difficult to say, since that's changing very fast. RG and G3 are phasing out their 733s and will operate only 73Gs and 738s until the end of the year. Aloha and ATA going belly up is apparently helping them replace all the 733s. Rumour has it that some ex-Aloha are coming.

It's very difficult to say what the active fleet of RG is, but the following narrowbody frames operated the network on May 8th: PP-VNT, PP-VNX, PP-VNZ, PP-VON, PP-VOZ, PP-VPB, PP-VPC, PP-VQN, PP-VQO, PP-VTW, PR-VBA, PR-VBB, PR-VBC, PR-VBD, PR-VBE, PR-VBK, PR-VBL, PR-VBM and PR-VBN. All PPs are 733, PR-VBN and VBM are 73G and the rest is 738.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3582 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting AF022 (Reply 7):
At year's end? I thought in an earlier posting they were cutting frequencies to MEX, CDG, MAD, etc. in May. Did this change?

No change, just the need to negotiate with lessors conditions for early return of 767's.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
With 737s maybe Varig should try to borrow a page of the Copa book. Set up a hub in Manaus. It will have privileged access to Brazil which Copa does not have

The problem is the low level of trade relationship between Brazil and some South America and Central America countries. Panama could not present the strong O&D that Brazil presents, but it's in the middle of Americas, and speaks spanish. A hub at MAO will rely on South America to North America flights and will not attract people closer to the main airports, only some on Northeast, BSB, CGB. Level of South America activity will be very reduced, and connections from LIM, SCL, EZE will be closer to zero. Europe is far from MAO.
Also, imagine the level of stress to build more facilities at MAO airport... as well as the cost of transport QAV to MAO. It's not feasible.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSampa737 From Brazil, joined May 2005, 637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

I remember my daughter flying from Aracaju back to Sao Paulo about 4 years ago. The return to Sao Paulo had her switch planes in Rio. She flew AJU-GIG on a RG 737, then an RG MD11 (perhaps DC10), GIG-GRU! They bumped her to 1st class for the 45" flight since the plane was almost empty. She was 12 years old at the time. I guess we're done seeing anything like that now...on ANY airline in Brasil. Varig looked good on widebodies!

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3678 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3241 times:



Quoting Sampa737 (Reply 13):
then an RG MD11 (perhaps DC10), GIG-GRU! They bumped her to 1st class for the 45" flight since the plane was almost empty. She was 12 years old at the time

It was a MD-11, since DC-10s weren't on the fleet anymore at that time. She was put on 1st class, because she was a UM. That is actually very common.


User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1770 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Anybody knows where are those 767s going to? AM and MX could put all 9 to good use ASAP.

User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3915 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 2894 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting AM744 (Reply 15):

who couldn't!!!



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 2815 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
The problem is the low level of trade relationship between Brazil and some South America and Central America countries.

I didn't list any airports in Central America (that is, the countries between Colombia and Mexico) except for SJO Costa Rica. Thus I never suggested Varig at Manaus would be a Brazilian hub for Central America.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
A hub at MAO will rely on South America to North America flights and will not attract people closer to the main airports, only some on Northeast, BSB, CGB.

That is really debatable. If that was true, Copa would have been a flop at GRU, which has nonstop services to about 10 cities in North America. Copa relies on a lot of North America traffic at GRU - like you said, trade links between Brazil and many Central American countries are weak. Still, they do well in Brazil with awful departure times. Given choice, who would get on a flight in Rio at leaving 3:10am?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Level of South America activity will be very reduced, and connections from LIM, SCL, EZE will be closer to zero.

With onward connections, EZE-MAO would attract more passengers than EZE-RAO...  Wink

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Also, imagine the level of stress to build more facilities at MAO airport... as well as the cost of transport QAV to MAO.

It depends on what kind of expansion. The apron at MAO has 3 parking positions without bridge access to the terminal. That could be added without major infrastructure investment bringing the airport to 9 gates. That would be enough for Varig to get started. However, I agree, INFRAERO is about concrete and they would never go for such incremental, cost-efficient improvement.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
It's not feasible.

Look at Copa. Nobody thought they could have come this far. What is special about PTY? Not much. Not even Continental believed Copa could do so well. A similar operation could have succeeded in Bogota or Caracas or San Jose. If focusing on South America to North America, MAO can play the same role. Lastly, do not forget, Manaus and its surroundings have vast potential (make that VAST) as a tourist destination.


User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5211 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 16):
who couldn't!!!


RG

O6

g77

[Edited 2008-05-12 13:30:05]


Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 2658 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
That is really debatable. If that was true, Copa would have been a flop at GRU, which has nonstop services to about 10 cities in North America. Copa relies on a lot of North America traffic at GRU - like you said, trade links between Brazil and many Central American countries are weak. Still, they do well in Brazil with awful departure times

At GRU they have two options, the best departs by 12:30 and the worst at 3 AM. First is good for people that doesn't like to fly during the day, the second is focused on leisure.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
Given choice, who would get on a flight in Rio at leaving 3:10am?

You said it all, giving choice no one would leave Rio by 3:10. But now CM is changing schedule of PTY-GIG. PTY-GIG will put you on Rio by 6 AM and Rio-Panama departs by 12:30.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
Look at Copa. Nobody thought they could have come this far. What is special about PTY? Not much

IMO, You're comparing the capital of a country with ties with North America and several countries with one city with strong ties with it's domestic markets only and that import components from MIA and LAX. PTY has government, PTY has banks, PTY has politics, PTY has a small financial center and large dedicated foreign investment.
MAO in the other hand is just a capital of a state, has no banks, has just local politics, and foreign investment is just on factories that feed the strong Brazilian Domestic Market. Just my 2 cents.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
With onward connections, EZE-MAO would attract more passengers than EZE-RAO

Are you sure ? RAO is in the middle of more people than MAO and also RAO can attract GYN, CGB, UDI. MAO is in the middle of a lot of places already serviced to EZE like CCS, BOG...  Smile



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4364 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

I would dare to quote that TA is mostly competing with LAN system in the northern regions of South America and following this landscape:
[GIG-GRU-MVD-SCL-EZE-LPB-VVI-CUZ] - LIMA - [UIO-GYE-CCS-MDE-BOG-SJO-SAL-GUA].
The market-share that CM attends in Brazil may target mainly to the US bound, Mexico and the Caribbean.




.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
I never suggested Varig at Manaus would be a Brazilian hub for Central America.

Based on the point that I made early, if both TA and RG would materialize a commercial agreement between them, LIM will be the focus city for connections to Central America and involved on RG's network.




.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
At GRU they have two options, the best departs by 12:30 and the worst at 3 AM. First is good for people that doesn't like to fly during the day, the second is focused on leisure.

The red-eye allocations are permitting a better utilization for the airplanes. This practice is quite often utilized for both CM and TA due to they need their planes back in order to attend their morning leaving banks.
I understood that it implies an horrendous departing hours, but the mentioned Central American carriers have established a pattern in the continent where the red-eye schedules are consolidating properly.
Some examples to illustrate this point:

CM MVD-PTY. Leaving at 05:13
CM GRU-PTY. Leaving at 03:55
CM SCL-PTY. Leaving at 02:59
TA IAD-SAL. Leaving at 05:10
TA LAX-SJO. Leaving at 02:55
TA JFK-SAL. Leaving at 04:10
TA GIG-LIM. Leaving at 05:35, among many others...

Those routes that grants a larger volume of traffic are typically sustaining two different daily flights, where the early departures are not a problem anymore.




.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
PTY has government, PTY has banks, PTY has politics, PTY has a small financial center and large dedicated foreign investment.

Neither of the Central American airports handled at least four millions of passengers during the 2007 and I also think that CM is mostly supporting their flights to Brazil in healthy connections through PTY.


Greetings from Central America.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 2422 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
IMO, You're comparing the capital of a country with ties with North America and several countries with one city with strong ties with it's domestic markets only and that import components from MIA and LAX. PTY has government, PTY has banks, PTY has politics, PTY has a small financial center and large dedicated foreign investment.
MAO in the other hand is just a capital of a state, has no banks, has just local politics, and foreign investment is just on factories that feed the strong Brazilian Domestic Market. Just my 2 cents.

I think sometimes I write and you don't read. Like I said, Copa owes very little of its success to Panama. It owes most of it to being contaminated with Continental Airlines' management competence. 81% of people who board Copa at GIG are going beyond PTY. 78% is the figure for GRU. You may think that EZE and SCL would be different, but they are similar. 74% of EZE passengers at Copa go beyond PTY. 67% from SCL do. Unfortunately I am short on time today but that demonstrates that Copa is a connecting operation. With a proper airport, some of it could be replicated even in Boa Vista, Roraima.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4364 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months ago) and read 2318 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
Copa owes very little of its success to Panama. It owes most of it to being contaminated with Continental Airlines' management competence. 81% of people who board Copa at GIG are going beyond PTY. 78% is the figure for GRU. You may think that EZE and SCL would be different, but they are similar. 74% of EZE passengers at Copa go beyond PTY. 67% from SCL do.

I think so.
The passengers out of Central America are mostly pointing to the US bound and other stations within the isthmus.
I don't get the accurate statistics, but our outbound traffic towards the Caribbean [besides Cuba and maybe Dominican Republic], Europe and far South America is rather weak.
It explains the behavior of the traffic that you previously posted out.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
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