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New NW China Flights: Beginning Of End Of NRT Hub?  
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11172 times:

How many years before DL/NW shuts down the entire connection operation at Narita in favor of nonstops from the US?

With all majors Asian destinations served by nonstops from the US, there will be no financial justification to base a few smaller aircraft at NRT just to fly to secondary Asian destinations like Pusan. There will be no financial justification to keep redundant services like Tokyo-Beijing when Beijing is served by multiple nonstops from the US. I believe the NRT hub will be gone in 3-4 years. DL/NW will be deploying 777LRs where needed in Asia.


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186 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5912 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11140 times:
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I think the delivery of the Dreamliners to NW/DL will probably be the end of the NRT hub. But that's a big maybe.

User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8387 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11121 times:
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NW has clung on to the Tokyo past like an old woman. NW should fly to NRT as a very big O & D city for them. Certainly fly some 744 to NRT but use them for nonstop to China too, HKG included. NW has a huge problem though, the only plane they have able to fly to NRT from other them PDX, SEA, and SFO is a 744.

Don't they regret not having A340's now for smaller longer range flights. NW needs a 275 passenger plane with 7500 miles range, like a 777. NRT should be served at least once daily from LAX ,SFO, PDX, SEA, HNL, MSP & DTW with JFK soon, I hope, too. Seattle to PEK via A332 & DTW to PVG with a 744 is great start but whatever happened to DTW to PEK NW used to fly? That routes looks like a winner today, They should fly it again. Every route possible to China nonstop should be flown with the DL merger and whatever is left over gets flown as a seconadry consideration. NW's refraib should be" CHINA, CHINA, CHINA" not "Narita, Narita, Narita". bring the 757's home from NRT.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11019 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
NRT should be served at least once daily from LAX ,SFO, PDX, SEA, HNL, MSP & DTW with JFK soon, I hope, too

PDX-NRT is almost all connecting traffic out of NRT. I'm not sure that flight is viable without "beyond" connections.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8387 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10999 times:
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Quoting NWAESC (Reply 3):
PDX-NRT is almost all connecting traffic out of NRT. I'm not sure that flight is viable without "beyond" connections.

Well then may be Portland isn't ready for a flight to Tokyo, Delta tried it from PDX and 9/11 killed the hub. The evidence of PDX's history to Asia is well documented and sad to say, I wish it wasn't that way.


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10954 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 4):
Well then may be Portland isn't ready for a flight to Tokyo, Delta tried it from PDX and 9/11 killed the hub. The evidence of PDX's history to Asia is well documented and sad to say, I wish it wasn't that way.

DL pulled out of PDX as a transpacific hub a year BEFORE 9/11. Their reasoning was poor financial returns and also a very tough customs port as well.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10878 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
NW's refraib should be" CHINA, CHINA, CHINA" not "Narita, Narita, Narita".

They need to transform NRT (or a Chinese city such as PEK) like they are doing with AMS. Build a partnership with a Japanese/Chinese airline to do the intra-China/Asia flights, just like having KLM do Europe and Middle East. It would probably be better at PEK, because you will need the frequencies to feed the transpac traffic. NRT is limited since all the potential growth may seem to come from China. Chinese City -PEK would be more sustainable that a Chinese City - NRT (international, visa, custom, etc).

Eventually, the secondary Chinese cities will pick up, such as Chengdu, Wuhan, Nanjing, Shenyang, Chongqing, etc etc. I can't imagine how NW would address those markets, certainly not by bringing 757s or 320s to NRT.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25531 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10840 times:

Customers prefer nonstop options, and a NRT hub actually means many passengers must double connect on the way to their destination -- Origin>USHub>NRT>Destination

United since pre 9/11 had begun to trim its intra-Asia spokes from Narita as more US nonstop services could be offered. UA has also downsized its flying to near all 777s at NRT today and refocused the operation on Japan O&D demand which has improved markets performance as well.

NWA for the last decade has always had a revenue deficiency in Asia compared to United primarily due its focus on large 747s and hubbing at NRT which caused the sale of lots of low yielding consolidator type revenue to fill planes. The switch to 332s has improved this, however Asia flying as a whole still continues to lag UA's performance.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4281 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10478 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
United since pre 9/11 had begun to trim its intra-Asia spokes from Narita as more US nonstop services could be offered. UA has also downsized its flying to near all 777s at NRT today and refocused the operation on Japan O&D demand which has improved markets performance as well.

NWA for the last decade has always had a revenue deficiency in Asia compared to United primarily due its focus on large 747s and hubbing at NRT which caused the sale of lots of low yielding consolidator type revenue to fill planes. The switch to 332s has improved this, however Asia flying as a whole still continues to lag UA's performance.

 checkmark 

Also remember that UA has plenty of connection opportunities with ANA as a star alliance partner, so the need for their own metal is greatly reduced. Skyteam in Asia is primarily KE, and since their hub is ICN, NW doesn't have the connection opportunities at NRT that UA does, and also I would expect US to do well with a PHL route for this same reason, and I think its not a matter of if, but when they launch this service.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10331 times:

You don't have any idea how valuable the rights that UA and NW holds to carry passengers beyond Japan. Yes, there will be many more nonstops between the US and other points in Asia. But there will also be plenty of revenue to be made carrying passengers from Japan to other points in Asia regardless of the amount of flow traffic that is put on the flight.

There will be DL hubs like LAX, LAX, DTW, MSP, JFK, and ATL that will support multiple nonstop flights to Asia but none will support the entire number of cities served by NW beyond Japan now - or the number of cities that could be served in the future. Cities like PDX and even cities like BOS and CVG which could see nonstop service to Japan will require lots of connections on both ends to work.

The beyond rights are very valuable and can make money with the right aircraft; the 757 has cockpit commonality with the 767 which DL has in boatloads and will likely be deployed on the Pacific. It is hard to imagine that DL can't make more money flying a 757 between cities like BKK, SIN, and HKG and Japan, regardless of how much connecting traffic is provided in Japan, than DL can make in the deeply competitive US market where fares are much lower. In Japan, some costs like flight attendants are lower than in the US.

There will also be new cities in Asia that can be connected to the NRT. As cities lose NRT service with nonstop service to the US, the slots can be used for other cities.

No, the NRT hub is not finished. it will be restructured and fewer US cities will require connection at NRT. Other US cities will gain nonstop service to Japan and other Asian cities will gain access to Japan and thus to the US.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10285 times:

NRT is a great hub for NW. Don't forget that they do have 5th freedom rights from Japan that are leftover from when the US won WWII. They can carry passengers from NRT to throughout Asia. NW is the 3rd largest airline in NRT which is one of the if not the highest yielding markets in the world that is extremely slot pressured. They don't have great frequency, but they can fill planes to NRT not only from the US but also using Japanese traffic. The fact they use Japanese crews as well makes them plenty attractive to travelers out of NRT. Somehow NRT can support year round daily service from PDX but DTW cannot keep even a single flight to PDX in the winter. The nonstop flights to NRT allow for single stop connections to many large markets in the United States.

NW and DL still won't have a west coast airport that has adequate feed. LAX is growing for DL, but still doesn't have that much feed. SEA is turning into an important international jumping off point for NW, but the only feed they have there is from AS. NW requires double connections for most destinations, although the single connections from the airports they do fly to are convenient.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17544 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10255 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10):
NRT is a great hub for NW



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
You don't have any idea how valuable the rights that UA and NW holds to carry passengers beyond Japan.

They're priceless and useless at the same time, but they're of declining use to UA and NW, as evidenced by UA's overflying Japan and NW's downgrading of flights to 757s. Neither carrier can build a successful "hub" there unless they get the local passenger, and they can't do that with their schedule (timed for US connections, not locals), and without a local partner (UA has NH, but DL/NW has zilch).



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10239 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10):
NRT is a great hub for NW. Don't forget that they do have 5th freedom rights from Japan that are leftover from when the US won WWII. They can carry passengers from NRT to throughout Asia. NW is the 3rd largest airline in NRT which is one of the if not the highest yielding markets in the world that is extremely slot pressured. They don't have great frequency, but they can fill planes to NRT not only from the US but also using Japanese traffic. The fact they use Japanese crews as well makes them plenty attractive to travelers out of NRT. Somehow NRT can support year round daily service from PDX but DTW cannot keep even a single flight to PDX in the winter. The nonstop flights to NRT allow for single stop connections to many large markets in the United States.

This is a very important point and RoseFlyer is dead on with it. NW is one of only two US carriers (UA being the other) that can carry 5th freedom traffic beyond Tokyo. The Tokyo franchise is one of the biggest assets that NW has at its disposal and gives it the ability to fly traffic to points in Asia that could not be ordinarily served from the US direct (not because it couldn't be done, but because the traffic base doesn't exist to justify it). Yes, I am certain that more direct service to Asia will be forthcoming as a result of the DL/NW deal. That said, the NRT franchise will allow them to fly to a large number of destinations; more economically by putting larger aircraft on the NRT flights and operating intra Asia with the 757, a DL 767 or NW A332-333, depending upon the market size). However, given the existing environment, I believe unit margin will be better by building up the NRT hub operation (in concert with Asian SkyTeam partners).

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 10169 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10):
NW and DL still won't have a west coast airport that has adequate feed

stick around and watch what they do with LAX.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
They're priceless and useless at the same time, but they're of declining use to UA and NW, as evidenced by UA's overflying Japan and NW's downgrading of flights to 757s.

just because UA can't figure out how to run an airline doesn't mean that DL and NW don't recognize the value. UA has no 767s operatingin the Pacific while NW and DL have an abundance of 767s and 330s. The 777 and 747 are too large for intra-Asian flights by US carriers. the 757 can easily fly to any point in east Asia while the 767/332 can fly to just about any point on the North Pacific Rim. It is well established that UA can't un an airline but that doesn't mean other airlines don't understand the value they have in their assets.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 12):
The Tokyo franchise is one of the biggest assets that NW has at its disposal and gives it the ability to fly traffic to points in Asia that could not be ordinarily served from the US direct (not because it couldn't be done, but because the traffic base doesn't exist to justify it). Yes

which I have been saying for months, if not years.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 10165 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
I think the delivery of the Dreamliners to NW/DL will probably be the end of the NRT hub. But that's a big maybe.

That'll probably be the last nail on the coffin.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 10117 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
They're priceless and useless at the same time, but they're of declining use to UA and NW, as evidenced by UA's overflying Japan and NW's downgrading of flights to 757s.

UA never had the slots out of NRT to truly make a hub work like NWA does. UA also has SFO which is a good gateway to Asia. 757s are better than when NW had A320s based in NRT.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
stick around and watch what they do with LAX.

We'll see. It seems like DL wants to commit to the market, but the problem is that since it is such a huge O/D market, it's hard for any carrier to develop a fortress hub to the scale that may be needed for transpacific flights. DL has to fight UA, AA, AS and WN which means that yields will be severely depleted. They'll have to take some losses in order to keep feed for those international flights.

Pacific routes need feed. DL does well out of JFK without it being a fortress hub, but that's because the Atlantic market is far larger. It's hard to say if they can do the same out of LAX. I'm a doubter personally, but would love to see it. LAX just has so much more competition domestically than JFK especially because it isn't fighting capacity issues like the New York Airports are. Operating a hub in NRT might make sense.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 10058 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
Cities like PDX and even cities like BOS and CVG which could see nonstop service to Japan will require lots of connections on both ends to work.

I believe NW will gets smaller 787 planes to do more US cities <==> NRT to feed passengers into Intra-Asia flights. For example, we never thought NWA start BDL <==> AMS. Don't forget, NW will restart JFK to NRT and perhaps start BOS to NRT.

I have a strong belief NWA wants to create more direct non-stop flights to China, and create more new flights to NRT. I think down the road, NRT will be the largest Asia Hub for NW (or DL if they merged).

And think of this -- If I want to go to Beijning and DTW-PEK flight is full, I could take DTW-NRT-PEK as a backup. Or use Skyteam partner from ICN to PEK (if NWA ever starts DTW - ICN). In next 10 years, there will be big increase of people going to China and will have hard time getting into China on non-stop flight. So using via NRT and ICN is their best alternative options.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
No, the NRT hub is not finished. it will be restructured and fewer US cities will require connection at NRT. Other US cities will gain nonstop service to Japan and other Asian cities will gain access to Japan and thus to the US.

I agree and disagree. I think NRT will gets new routes to newer cities from USA such as MEM, CVG, SLC, IAD (remember, there are large NW and DL FF bases in Washington DC area). I think NRT will just be a different type of hub than in the past. Like I said earlier, I think NW will start more flights from non-hub cities (or focus city like IND).


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5981 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 10007 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
just because UA can't figure out how to run an airline doesn't mean that DL and NW don't recognize the value. UA has no 767s operatingin the Pacific while NW and DL have an abundance of 767s and 330s. The 777 and 747 are too large for intra-Asian flights by US carriers. the 757 can easily fly to any point in east Asia while the 767/332 can fly to just about any point on the North Pacific Rim. It is well established that UA can't un an airline but that doesn't mean other airlines don't understand the value they have in their assets.

Excuse me? Just because UA doesn't use the 767 and 757 in Asia does not mean that they don't know how to run the airline properly especially across the Pacific. UA is the dominate carrier to Asia and commands quite a bit higher yield across Asia then NW can via Japan, mainly because of those nonstops from the US. UAs NRT hub served its purpose and was, and still is, a great asset to UA however the 777 and the 744 allow UA to bypass Japan and provide one stop flights to the vast majority of Asia via SFO or ORD. Business travelers do not want to double and triple connect to get where they are going.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9965 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 15):
We'll see. It seems like DL wants to commit to the market, but the problem is that since it is such a huge O/D market, it's hard for any carrier to develop a fortress hub to the scale that may be needed for transpacific flights. DL has to fight UA, AA, AS and WN which means that yields will be severely depleted. They'll have to take some losses in order to keep feed for those international flights.

DL hasn't made LAX a priority because they haven't had the Pacific rights or access to make Asia work. DL is not interested in slugging it out to be dominant in the local LAX domestic market.

DL will make LA-Asia and LA-Latin America work and the those two regions happen to grow very well together... Asia-Latin America is the fastest growing aviation region in the world and 80% of traffic between those regions transits the US on US carriers.

Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 16):


I believe NW will gets smaller 787 planes to do more US cities <==> NRT to feed passengers into Intra-Asia flights. For example, we never thought NWA start BDL <==> AMS.

exactly.

Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 16):
NW will restart JFK to NRT and perhaps start BOS to NRT.

actually, DL will restart JFK-NRT and DL will start BOS-NRT. The merger will be completed before next summer which is when the JFK-NRT flight would have been restarted for DL; if NW restarted it, it would come one year later with the arrival of the 787s but DL can do it with a 777 or even a NW 747.

Quoting United1 (Reply 17):
Just because UA doesn't use the 767 and 757 in Asia does not mean that they don't know how to run the airline properly especially across the Pacific.

you missed the point. It is not that UA has a good Pacific operation. The point is that UA can't figure out how to take advantage of its position as being one of just 2 airlines in the world to have vast traffic rights beyond Japan. The whole point I am making is not that DL or UA will have massive route systems between the US and points throughout Asia, although DL will clearly have the advantage with the LR which can fly nonsto[ from the US to deep into SE Asia and India while United just has to sit and dream about it. The point, however, is that UA hasn't and apparently doesn't have the ability to make its intra Asia rights work. Japan is one of the largest economies in the world and they, like NW, have the right to serve some of the fastest growing markets in the world from the most wealthy cities in Asia. Those rights are not something that any carrier should just walk away from. If UA can't make their beyond Asia rights work, they should sell them and let some other US carrier give them a try. There is no other 5th freedom aviation asset in the world that is as valuable as the rights UA and NW have. DL knows the value of those rights and will develop them.

Quoting United1 (Reply 17):
UA is the dominate carrier to Asia and commands quite a bit higher yield across Asia then NW can via Japan,

UA has revenue premiums to the cities beyond Japan because of its nonstop service but not to all of Asia. You will also quickly see how fast UA's Pacific dominance will fall, esp. since CO backed away from a merger with UA; CO was the best hope UA had of providing the aircraft necessary to grow the Pacific network, esp. on the beyond Japan routes. DL's 777LRs and 787s in addition to the 767 conversions (which will free up other aircraft for use on the Pacific or the 764 may serve on the Pacific itself) will provide nearly as much growth lift on the Pacific than UA has in its entire Pacific network right now.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9885 times:

It's been a long time - over 20 years - but when I lived near Tokyo, NW aircraft in the Pacific region carried a lot of NRT O&D traffic.

They were competitive with the national airlines of Korea, Japan, ROC, Philippines and other countries.

An NWA flight from Tokyo to another pacific destination would be 60-70 % Japanese or destination nation passengers.

NWA wasn't an American airliner flying US passengers to Asian destinations. It was an Asian airline flying competitively in the region from it's NRT hub.

That may be different today.


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5981 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9681 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
The point, however, is that UA hasn't and apparently doesn't have the ability to make its intra Asia rights work

UA has the ability to make them work but why would they want to deploy their aircraft on intra-Asian routes when they have the ability to overfly Japan and increase revenue in the process. If I can make a million a year flying US-NRT-HKG well thats great but if I can make 1.5 million a year flying UA-HKG nonstop, dropping the NRT stop and codesharing with NH seems to be the way to go.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
You will also quickly see how fast UA's Pacific dominance will fall, esp. since CO backed away from a merger with UA; CO was the best hope UA had of providing the aircraft necessary to grow the Pacific network, esp. on the beyond Japan routes. DL's 777LRs and 787s in addition to the 767 conversions (which will free up other aircraft for use on the Pacific or the 764 may serve on the Pacific itself) will provide nearly as much growth lift on the Pacific than UA has in its entire Pacific network right now.

I see several problems with your argument....

1. There are something like 10 764s that are left to be converted to an international configuration. While that great and will provide DL with international growth aircraft, thats no where near enough to launch much of an Asian operation, and DLs and NWs international widebody fleet is about maxed out for utilization right now so theres not going to be much that can just be shifted without cutting elsewhere. On top of that DL is actually returning 2 763ERs to the lessors at the end of the year, so even they are reigning in there growth plans.
2. While DL and NW are taking delivery of some 787s and 77Ls if they take delivery of the amount of aircraft that you are proposing and expand as quickly as you want them to over the Pacific (well actually your plan for DL is World Domination muhahahahaha!!!) they will probably find themselves back in BK court as at the end of the day they have to pay for those dozens of A/C that you are proposing.
3. Where are they going to launch this "Pacific Offensive" from SEA? LAX? inland hubs don't work as a primary Pacific gateway. That's going to require even more aircraft to support a coastal hub (meaning higher cost as you need even more aircraft) rely on a codeshare with AS you say thats kind of risky because all that would have to happen is someone buys AS and your Pacific division all of a sudden has no feed. Also who are you going to get the gates at LAX or even SEA from?
4. CO was not UAs last best hope for expansion in the Pacific or new longhaul aircraft, US has quite a few 332's (25 of them from 2009-2011) and 350's on order as well, and even if that fails UA can always order more aircraft.

I think you will see some growth coming out of of this merger however no where near what you envision, if DL does that they will implode under the cost of carrying that much more debt, and I have way to many family members working for DL to want to see that happen.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineYulguy From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9669 times:

I don't imagine NW would ever shut down their NRT hub. It's one of the most important parts of their network. NRT is really the only viable way that NW can bring passengers from various American cities (especially their non-hub cities) and get them to most major cities in Asia. I doubt NW would ever be able to serve Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, Bangkok and Hong Kong directly from airports like SFO, LAX, PDX, MSP or SEA. I doubt they'd be able to serve all these cities directly from DTW for that matter. But with the NRT hub, residents from these cities can conveniently connect all over Asia (and vice versa). Connecting to Seoul in NRT is probably more convenient than connecting in LAX or SFO.

I used to live in Tokyo and flew NW very often to Canada (via DTW) and also to other points in Asia. It was always interesting to see the two daily NW rushes: one for the US-NRT-Asia flights and another for the Asia-NRT-US flights. It was like two big musical chair games with all the transfering traffic.



"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlinePhileet92 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9626 times:

would jfk- beijing, hong kong, and shanghai be possible with the 787? these are definitely profitable routes if launched. or at least bring jfk- nrt back.

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9608 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 20):
UA has the ability to make them work but why would they want to deploy their aircraft on intra-Asian routes when they have the ability to overfly Japan and increase revenue in the process.

you obviously don't get it. The point is that UA and NW have highly valuable LOCAL traffic rights within Asia. They can and will serve US-Asia beyond Japan nonstop but they can ALSO fly Japan-other points in Asia. As stated above, all of the routes in Asia can be flown with DOMESTIC aircraft (ie ones that couldn't be flying int'l routes anyway). There is more revenue to be made with an airplane assigned to intra-Asia flying than most aircraft can make flying within the US. The intra-Asia rights are valuable because they give UA and NW to tap into revenue that few other airlines can tap into - and they don't have to use expensive international range aircraft to operate the routes. The whole reason UA has pulled out of intraAsia flying is because they do not recognize the value of those rights or can't figure out how to make them work.

As for future DL Asia growth, just watch. I'm sure you were one of the many naysayers who predicted DL would never make it out of BK, said that their last 3 years of new markets would never work, and now say their merger won't work and they won't be able to figure out how to grow from it. While you sit and doubt, DL will deliver while UA still is begging for someone to marry them despite the obvious objections of their employees


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5981 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9558 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
you obviously don't get it. The point is that UA and NW have highly valuable LOCAL traffic rights within Asia

Yes they do, but why fly those routes when you can deploy the aircraft elsewhere and make more money?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
Asia growth, just watch. I'm sure you were one of the many naysayers who predicted DL would never make it out of BK

Actually no, I have family who work there so the last thing I wanted was for them to go under. I don't remember making a single statement on DLs BK other then good luck and I hope that you all make it out of BK.

All you are doing by attacking me or saying that UA is begging or knocking anyone else or any other airline is showing that you have NOTHING to back up your statements other then your imagination and wishful thinking.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
25 DeltaL1011man : I think NRT will become the next GUM. Using it for smaller Asia citys and US flights. it went to NRT i think. So does UA and look at how large the NR
26 LAXintl : Yes there is, but NWA historically has captured plenty low yielding back of the bus traffic. In may markets yes, but not the NW/UA intra-Asia flying.
27 Commavia : Precisely. Why route people through Narita, and require a double connection, when you can just dump thousands of people at Chicago or San Francisco a
28 Planefxr : Well acording to DL upper managment the time slots UA has in NRT are not as good as NW's and they also have SFO to feed those flights. I don't think
29 MaverickM11 : Yes we all know Delta is the best airline in the world and will develop every market into the bestest greatest route while curing cancer By the time
30 MAH4546 : I'm still waiting for LAX-SCL.
31 LAXdude1023 : I sure hope this isnt the end of the NRT hub. NW tries to cater to the market on the west coast with it. If they do end the NRT hub, I think SEA would
32 Coal : They will probably still have a tag-on flight to SIN. SIN-NRT & return in economy goes for about USD900, so I doubt they would give that up. Cheers Co
33 DeltaL1011man : And They might add a few more flights but they don't have a real large Domestic feed at SEA and there not going to try and fight AS. Well This coming
34 MAH4546 : That doesn't change the fact that when XJet at-risk flying is unsuccessful, it still shows how the Delta brand is unsuccessful in the market.
35 Ryu2 : Sad to say, but NW is well-known here in Asia but not in terms of service. They usually offer the lowest fares, or close to them. In my experience, NW
36 DeltaL1011man : I would have to say that most of the flights that are left have to be doing good or DL and Xjet are stupid. Now that MCO,CVG,SLC, and ATL are getting
37 Jetdeltamsy : You could be right, but I don't agree. The fact that NW and UA have LOCAL traffic rights to/from NRT make it a highly lucrative hub. The huge populat
38 United1 : The problem isn't so much that NRT isn't profitable, the problem is the intra-asia flights are not as profitable as you might think. NW and UA make t
39 Centrair : I would think that instead of dehubbing NRT, NW will start new connecting flights to new destinations. NW used to serve Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta. Thes
40 B747-4U3 : There are several problems with your argument: 1. to get higher yielding intra-Asia traffic, NW or UA would need to have multiple daily frequencies o
41 Lightsaber : My opinion is that the lack of slots at NRT is killing NRT. Yes, I understand enough about the political situation there... But there was once a time
42 Commavia : Yep - that is exactly my experience. In Singapore, where I lived part of last year, I only even heard Northwest mentioned three times while there - a
43 Davescj : Couple more thoughts to consider. Could DL get 5th freedom to go CDG or AMS to NRT? That could create traffic west bound, perhaps get rights to stop i
44 Planefxr : Look for DL/NW to strengthen ties with AS maybe even add them to skyteam. There will be feed to SEA. Yeah! Someone gets it. Comparing the networks of
45 MaverickM11 : Even if they could, that's what KL/AF are for, and that's the reason AF/KL don't tag SLC onto YYZ, for instance. Because Xjet is footing the bill. Do
46 WorldTraveler : and you work in what dept of NW? You don't have a clue what NW carries within Asia. And I still will remind you that the cheapest fare within ASIA is
47 LAXdude1023 : Allow me: Of all the routes they started at LAX, they have a very high rate of canceling them. I could sit here and list all the ones theyve canceled
48 FlyPNS1 : But when you look at the bottomline, DL's performance just isn't that great. Last quarter, DL's operating margin was almost identical to AA....despit
49 PSU.DTW.SCE : While I'm not nearly the kool-aid drinker that WT is, the point that he is making is exactly true. NRT as a NW/DL hub isn't going anywhere, period. It
50 OA412 : But, the problem with that statement is that you and I and pretty much everyone else on here don't know what the actual profitability of DL's TATL fl
51 Flyguy1 : Can anyone confirm this? I thought DL was only returning non ER 767's, if any at all.
52 B2443 : Well the listing fares intra-Asia are usually high but reality is a little different. At yahoo's travel site: NW's PEK-NRT rt lists US$673 Jun4/Jun11
53 EXAAUADL : I love on A.net when an airline makes a minor change ie AA cancelling ORD-PDX, NW flying SEA-PEK, F9 cancelling non-DEN Mexico flying is somehow an in
54 Post contains links United1 : It was in the conference call, in the analyst portion someone asked if they were scaling back growth plans due to the economy. You can probably find
55 MaverickM11 : It does not have unlimited slots. It has about 20-25, which is not enough to build a hub with, and there's no way in hell it's going to get the dozen
56 Kohflot : So does that mean there's a difference between a hub and a HUB? Just in time for the economy and the dollar to go into the toilet. That's certainly n
57 WorldTraveler : DL has been growing at a torrid pace in international markets because they realize there is more future in int'l markets than there is domestically.
58 LAXintl : What no LAX hub any more? For the last two years it has been you, and no one else that has continually espoused the point they DL would indeed make L
59 MaverickM11 : Fantastic. How is NW going to leverage those those unlimited rights when it can't land in Tokyo more than a couple dozen times a day? You have to get
61 Post contains links United1 : No one is saying that these routes are not profitable, what everyone is saying is that these routes are marginal, meaning that while they will make m
62 B2443 : But it is also typical that DTW-ATW (300 miles) could go over $1000. Whatever the losses made on JFK-LAX may be offset by other routes. In Asia, it's
63 Coolfish1103 : All we can say about the implementation of SEA-PEK is a route that DL/NW is focusing... The real "direct flight" to focus cities. As far as NRT's regi
64 WorldTraveler : how many times a day do you think NH or JL lands in Japan from the US? the largest foreign airline in Japan and #3 overall is nothing to sneeze at. A
65 United1 : So US exports are growing because it is cheaper for foreign countries to buy goods manufactured in the US, however conversely US companies are findin
66 Bobnwa : Are you now agreeing that NWA has unlimited rights in Tokyo. I am getting confused by what you are saying.
67 AirNZ : I don't mean to be deliberately pedantic, but just to be correct remember the ALLIES won WWII, not the US itself.
68 MaverickM11 : You clearly have no concept of how a hub works, which is ironic seeing as you are the cheerleader for the airline that has leveraged its ATL hub into
69 Evan767 : And I am still waiting for the "new Delta international focus city" based in MIA.
70 WorldTraveler : you got part of it right but you don't seem to understand that air transportation involves revenue on both ends of the route; it is not the same as m
71 DeltaL1011man : That is if they don't get bought. AS may or may not be here in a year or two. They won't join Sky. They have codeshare with AA and CO (AA OW CO STAR
72 United1 : US carriers have been moving capacity out of the US and overseas for years, it has nothing to do with the weak US dollar or the stronger Euro, it has
73 Planefxr : If they can find a buyer DL is considering selling 4 767-300's ships 1401-1404 which are ETOPS but not ER's, but unlikely they can find a buyer. I ha
74 WorldTraveler : no they haven't... unless you are talking post 9/11. Prior to that, US carriers had moderate growth overseas but weren't cannibalizing their domestic
75 MAH4546 : Nothing to wait for, because that idea being floated around was dead on arrival. Though I think they might have been able to make it work. They'd pro
76 WorldTraveler : from one A>>> to another. When DL decides it's not worth their while to maintain that route, I'm sure they'll drop it. AA gave up on OAK while DL sol
77 Planefxr : I guess we must be drinking from the same punch bowl. Oh and yes we are right, just ask us! 3-5 years from now the rest of the A.netters will see our
78 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : Here's the numbers from 3Q07. Granted at that time DL's transatlantic RASM was only 98% of industry average, but close enough. Transatlantic Operatin
79 WorldTraveler : I don't disagree with what you are posting but DL didn't make the statement about beating industry RASM in the 3rd quarter; they did in the 1st quarte
80 Post contains links United1 : As I said in my post NW cut overflights between the US and Asia, at one point NW operated, SEA-SEL/OSA, LAX-TPE, DTW-HKG? (might have been MSP-HKG) a
81 WorldTraveler : And CO was an enigma to the rest of the industry for years. CO is an AIRLINE not AIRLINES. CO also STILL loses money on it domestic system. They are
82 United1 : You asked for an example and I did so if you want to know what the rest of the US carriers were doing prior to 9/11 I suggest you look them up. Also
83 MaverickM11 : Not one US airline other than NW/UA that has any kind of international hub operation. DL/TW/UA used to have European hubs but where are they now? Sho
84 LAXdude1023 : That punch bowl must be laced with acid if youre seeing visions. Particularly the visions you say youre seeing. You should try rehab. Youre remark ab
85 FFlyerWorld : 65 Million people in the Southeast US tired of connecting via LAX or SFO for Asia today! Delta adding nonstops from ATL, JFK, DTW and others to Asia
86 Jgarrido : There's currently 2 flights between Guam and Narita and they're adding an second Saipan-Narita. I don't see them flying direct to Guam and Saipan to t
87 LAXdude1023 : I was responding to the notion that DL will be bigger in the Far East than UA in several years. They wont. I realize that not everyone wants to make
88 Davescj : Unless they get to build it....then they will come......true. Dave
89 FFlyerWorld : Just as SFO will never be a huge North Atlantic Hub like ATL is now and will continue to be. And if UA doesn't get is house in order soon with all th
90 Bobnwa : NW and DL added together are already very close to the size of UA when comparing RPK's. Taking away the down under PPK's, which really aren't the "Fa
91 MaverickM11 : The local Asia market to/from SFO is probably bigger than ATL, DFW, IAD, DTW, SEA and MSP combined. The reason ATL is such a large Transatlantic hub
92 Commavia : Um, FYI: many of us (besides WT) have been making that exact point for months. It's obvious that the "New Delta" will have a new Narita strategy, sin
93 OA412 : And SFO will never be the Europe or Latin America hub that ATL is, etc., etc. Besides, if the merger with NW is approved, who says that ATL will serv
94 LAXdude1023 : No not really. We can sit here all day and pretend that ATL and LAX are similar, but not even close. At ATL, they built it and people came. There is
95 MCOAviationFan : After reading through this thread, it seems a lot of argument over semantics. It seems the above two posters summed it up very well as to what the DL
96 LAXintl : Hey for those that think NWA sits on an incredibly profitable Pacific operation vis-a-vis United, lets check out their performance from DOT numbers. 0
97 MaverickM11 : I rest my case.
98 Lhpdx : I'm really getting nervous for PDX......Will we lose our Narita and Amsterdam flight as the result of this merger?
99 LAXdude1023 : I dont work for DL or NW, but I would be shocked if you lost either. PDX-NRT does well for them as a result of the hub at NRT. They just started PDX-
100 United1 : PDX-NRT is pretty well subsidised by the local business community, I would be shocked if this flight goes away.
101 CV880 : Why didn't NW transfer this authority (NRT-CAN) to LAX-PEK instead of SEA? Could easily fill a 744 with local traffic without having to worry about f
102 DeltaL1011man : And there Hub or whatever it is at LAX is pretty dam good to. NRT-PEK/PVG may or may not come to the mainland.
103 FFlyerWorld : And what do you say about the internal turmoil and strife that is so present at UA today ? How are you going to get past that one? And yes, agreed, f
104 LAXdude1023 : Im not even sure if thats a humanoid response. Ill say this once more: this isnt a contest. Obviously, you feel very defensive about ATL and DL and t
105 Post contains links BA744PHX : Actually no Georgia is China's 8th largest exporter as of 2007. Texas claims #3 http://tse.export.gov/MapFrameset.as...c3w30fr3ji4w545-2008-5-11-21-1
106 DeltaL1011man : I think he he was saying GA's 3rd largest is China not GA is China 3rd largest.
107 FFlyerWorld : I know what you are saying. Delta has spoiled us so we think we have it made in ATL and expect more and more and more! And for some odd reason - Delt
108 FFlyerWorld : Just think of the possibilities!!! Name another region of the country with a hub like ATL that has that kind of POTENTIAL!
109 United1 : My question is what is DL going to do for the 225 million of us who don't live in the south.
110 FFlyerWorld : Thanks for the correction!
111 United1 : Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, Phoenix....
112 FFlyerWorld : Chicago - competes with Detroit, Minneapolis and other secondary focus cities nearby and there are not 65 million people in the upper midwest. DFW -
113 FFlyerWorld : You can fly United, American, Continental or USAirways to Dubai, TelAviv, Moscow, Bombay etc etc etc - right?
114 United1 : I picked PHX as the metro area is about the same size as Atlanta and growing rather rapidly as well. Atlanta doesn't exactly have a lock on the south
115 FFlyerWorld : My friend, what planet are you living on? MEM??? CLT??? MIA??? - Even putting all 3 of these together - they don't come close to the possibilites of
116 United1 : Yes I can actually.... UA to Moscow and DXB ,AA to Moscow, CO to TLV & BOM... ATL is not the center of the universe....and I used to live in Atlanta
117 FFlyerWorld : That's great! You know us Atlantans then - great civic and corporate pride! Glad you understand since you lived here at one time. Once we get on the
118 FFlyerWorld : Why are there no NWA folks on here ? Flyers or employees ? Seems like all Delta, UA and AA and maybe a few CO folks.
119 WorldTraveler : because NW is making the decision NOW based on what they can support based on their own network. If the decision were being made a year from now, DL
120 United1 : Oh I understand, I have a very soft spot in my heart for Chicago as I grew up there it took quite a while of living elsewhere to realise that Chicago
121 Post contains images United1 : Oh I'm green with something                      !!!! Just the ones who didn't realise that you have to clear US Customs while in trans
122 PSU.DTW.SCE : Because this thread has degenerated into a bunch of name-calling, chest-beating, and a pi$$ing match. All that has needed to have been said, as alrea
123 United1 : agreed it is amazing how this thread has morphed....
124 LAXdude1023 : Do you guys listen to yourselves talk at all? You guys sound horrible. Why do you always put other hubs and airlines down just to elevate DL? Shouldn
125 Coolfish1103 : The only way NRT Hub will die down is if they can find another Hub in Asia that can replace NRT with all the benefits that NRT gives and is a lot chea
126 BA744PHX : Actually China is Georgia's second largest exporter. However at only 1.6 billion in exports is not a reason for their China flight to do well. IF tha
127 DeltaL1011man : SLC,IAH,LAX,SFO and DTW (along with ATL) are up there for me. DFW was one the best hubs for DL.....same they couldn't make it work (just trying to cl
128 Carpethead : NW will abandon its NRT hub – they will move it to HND! Somebody earlier posted that the intra-Asia routes are operated by Japanese crews. That is n
129 Bobnwa : True about the cockpit crew but not true about the cabin crew.
130 MCOAviationFan : This is exactly what DL is attempting to do. Building up JFK the past several years, looking to expand at LAX, Expansion to Africa, Eastern Europe, M
131 Coolfish1103 : You might want to re-read my post? I said "another hub" that has "cheaper labor."
132 Jfk777 : On the Atlantic side of the world Delta has built JFK up to a level even Pan Am would envy. JFK to LHR, finally, to GRU, to South Africa, to Cairo, an
133 MaverickM11 : Just like they did in Latin America and LAX! They can fix anything . You haven't answered my previous question. Why did DL shut down DFW? I'm sure al
134 LAXdude1023 : Allow me to answer that. DL got their ass handed to them by AA at DFW. AA is extremely protective of DFW and anytime someone tries to compete, they r
135 Davescj : After (and if) NW and DL merge, would that give DL a move toward a true West Coast hub? I remember at one point NW had quite a few flights ex SFO. Als
136 MSYtristar : Yep. DL tried to hold out as late as the early 90's, but by '95, the pullback started. DL was always second fiddle in Dallas. Eventually, they packed
137 MaverickM11 : True, but it's a little more macro than that...DL did coexist with AA for quite a while. Other than ORD, are there any airports, not cities, with mor
138 MSYtristar : Probably not since UA/CO at Stapleton I would say.
139 Gsosbee : Which is a cross all of us that fly out of DFW must bear until the DOJ finds some form of predatory pricing.
140 United1 : LAX maybe? but thats about as close to a dual legacy (or tripple if you want to include DL) hub as we are going to get.[Edited 2008-05-12 10:30:12]
141 MSYtristar : I was going to say JFK as well with AA and DL.
142 MaverickM11 : NYC and QLA are big enough to handle multiple hubs, but AA/DL are trying to build hubs in JFK with mixed results. I'm not too sure they've "arrived"
143 LAXdude1023 : Is it really that bad? I fly in and out of DFW every month and have never noticed a problem with AA chaging more than they should. Sometimes I find i
144 Deltal1011man : It was when DL went running back to ATL. They shut down JFK,LAX,PDX, and DFW pulled back CVG and SLC and built the worlds largest hub in ATL. No. DL
145 LAXdude1023 : It wasnt really that close. AA had the upper hand having the bigger hub and being HQ'ed in Fort Worth. DL had an uphill battle at DFW. The one thing
146 Commavia : As LAXdude said, it was not close - not in the slightest. Delta was always a minimal and distant player in the DFW market when compared with AA. And
147 Davescj : Yes, it was a massive cut back and so suddenly. But what was the cause to go back to JFK? It isnt' the easiest to hub out of either. Ditto LAX, and i
148 Jacobin777 : Taking their "JFK-esque strategy" of using B757's from Japan to BKK, SIN and HGK is to be seen. Not to mention, NW has been an established name in Ja
149 FFLyerWorld : Guess when one feels so beaten down -one tends to get irate and just plain full of himself! Funny too - your Aunt flew ATL-DXB on DL from ATL. Why no
150 United1 : Yes people do as evidenced by the quote bellow....
151 FFLyerWorld : Why so defensive here? You must admit that UA has a huge challenge in front of them with employee morale and internal issues? Answer please?
152 Qantas744ER : I'm sure you do Leo
153 United1 : I'm not defensive at all, I'm just standing by my earlier statement that if you want to be viewed as credible then you need to be able to respond to
154 LAXdude1023 : Several things: 1) Jacobin777 isnt a UA flyer. He and I are both AA elite (thats not an open invitiation for you to beat them down to make DL look go
155 Jacobin777 : .....sure bud, I'm "so beaten down"...right... First of all, I don't fly UA (as fellow LAXdude1023 correctly states below. Second, even if I was a UA
156 DeltaL1011man : I sure do wish DL was given the best markets in the US but inside of letting the gov. give it to them or just buying there way into the market DL has
157 OA412 : OK I'm a bit late to the party with these comments but here goes. It's interesting to see just how conservative NW has been with regards to its Asia
158 Jacobin777 : When were cities "handed" by the govt. to other carriers such as UA and AA? Please to share.... It's been mentioned above and in previous threads. ..
159 LAXdude1023 : I believe this is a very fair assesment and very likely too. With more hub options, ATL might not be the first choice for Asia flights. I wasnt actua
160 OA412 : No I realize that but, to me at least, you accomplished both at the same time.
161 Jacobin777 :
162 DeltaL1011man : Dam thats two times we almost got PEK..........maybe now with PVG doing so well we will get our PEK flight. Pre-dergulation AA and UA got must of the
163 Jacobin777 : Say what? AA bought out TW. Its as simple as that......Its the same as DL buying out NW....maybe we should have the govt. stop this "stupid merger" a
164 LAXdude1023 : The ATL-PVG leg is doing great loads wise. PVG-ATL, not so much, but itll get better. Im sure ATL-PEK will happen too. Further Asia expansion might b
165 DeltaL1011man : DL/NW have all of 12 overlapping routes. AA bought TWA just to get rid of them. Its called merger just to get the competitor. The DOJ let it happen a
166 LAXdude1023 : Let not go overboard. ATL-SIN nonstop wont happen. Im not going to go into SYD again because I know that you and I have different ideas about it, so
167 DeltaL1011man : I didn't mean SIN non-stop.........ATL-HKG-SIN or ATL-NRT-SIN. Same thing for DTW. NRT will be losing its major Asian citys for smaller ones. Forgot
168 MAH4546 : Wrong. They bought TW for a reliever hub. Then 9/11 happened, and it was no longer necessary.
169 LAXdude1023 : If they have the NRT hub, ATL-NRT-SIN can happen without having it have to be a direct (through) flights. Same with a ton of other destinations.
170 DeltaL1011man : yea and DL isn't going to close CVG and MEM right I didn't mean the same flight number (even thought i wrote it like that)
171 MAH4546 : No, I still believe DL will close them. What on earth does 2008 have to do with 2000? The two have nothing to do with each other. When AA bought TWA,
172 DeltaL1011man : And you just missed my point. AA said the need a new hub..........I call bull (just like i do with DL not closing CVG and MEM) I think TWA was bought
173 Commavia : What possible other reason could there be for buying a bankrupt airline? Again, why would AA buy TWA and spend billions of dollars not only acquiring
174 Cubsrule : If that was the case and AA knew it, they would have been better off letting TW liquidate and picking off those assets they wanted (STL or whatever e
175 PSU.DTW.SCE : Dude, you were 9 years old in 2000!.....I suggest you actually read up and study the state of the US airline system in the late 90's/2000 before you
176 DeltaL1011man : But see this is what I don't get.......The DL DFW hub was pretty much dead in 2001 was it not? I know in the 1990s it was there 2nd largest hub but I
177 WunalaYann : I understand the point regarding DL and NW - no SkyTeam airlines in Japan means zero partner on intra-Asia traffic. But what about UA? What is the ex
178 Cubsrule : It had shrunk but was definitely still a hub. The point isn't so much that DFW was grossly overcrowded (it wasn't then and isn't now). It's more that
179 MAH4546 : No offense to your aunt, but do you really think an ex-TWA FA who lost her job because of the merger is really going to tell you anything else? When
180 Commavia : No, Delta still very much had a DFW hub in 2001. It was already shrinking by that point - it began shrinking in the late 1990s - but it was still def
181 Bobnwa : Do you think a flight attendant for any airline today knows about the corporate and financial decisions made by there airline? I have never met any f
182 MaverickM11 : I would guess that UA/NH will begin to look more and more like NW/KL, with UA and NH flying everything Tpac and NH flying any onward connections from
183 SkyTeamTriStar : Some peoples' skin is just thicker than others. Stop whining if you cant handle the heat
184 Incitatus : With all due respect, you are wrong on this one. We don't even have to talk about airlines. Frequently, strategic outcomes can be seen through the ta
185 Cubsrule : ...but they do that whether it's a sign of strengthening (e.g. DL at DFW) or weakening (e.g. PA or TW at LHR).
186 Bobnwa : I disagree that tactical moves signal bigger moves down the road. I will just use my own airline as an example of tactical moves being just that and
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