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Future Of Int'l Carriers At Fortress ATL?  
User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 287 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5709 times:

Being a Georgia native, I enjoy having Delta as my one-stop shop for travel out of ATL.

However, for someone who likes spotting planes from around the world, it is a bit boring, and sometimes troubling from an economical perspective, how much of a stranglehold DL has on ATL, particularly in the international space.

Currently, there are 8 non-US carriers serving the world's busiest airport. Half of them are allied with Delta through SkyTeam (AF, AM, KE, KL). Of the other 4, two are strong European carriers (BA, LH) with enough business to fill a flight to any major US city like ATL, one is an RJ out of YYZ (Air Canada Jazz), and one is an Airbus to nearby Jamaica.

We used to get an SA A340 from JNB, but they pulled it when Delta started flying there.

I suppose DL probably benefits from having such a large feed into and out of ATL. Most other carriers probably need really good O&D market or codeshares with SA)">DL to make their ATL routes work. So it makes sense that a Star Alliance carrier would lose out to DL on that route.

Has this happened before with other carriers/routes? I've kinda wondered if DL got their routes to GIG/GRU around the time RG stopped flights to ATL. I'm actually pretty surprised JM continues to fly here now that DL no longer codeshares flights to MBJ.

Could this potentially even start happening with SkyTeam carriers as well? AM has only a single, seemingly perfunctory frequency to ATL. AF probably continues to do well to CDG, but I wonder if KE will continue to serve their route if DL keeps upping their frequencies to Asia. I'm sure the new Kia plant offers some O&D traffic, but not enough to fill a 744... incidentally, the only one that carries passengers here.

What does the future look like for ATL? With DL expanding all over the world, a lot of international carrier service to ATL is becoming more and more redundant. How much competition can we lose before it's not healthy anymore, or are we already there?

[Edited 2008-05-12 14:01:17]

[Edited 2008-05-12 14:06:35]

85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 789 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Um, you're preaching to the choir buddy. DFW is in the same boat but at least the Skyteam carriers from Europe stuck around at ATL and continue to perform well enough to maintain flights there. However, wasn't CZ supposed to begin flights to ATL a few years back and now DL has flights to Prague? And Aeroflot would probably have begun service to ATL by now if DL didn't jump on ATL-Moscow. Alitalia, well they're not in any position to spend the money to begin service to ATL.

This was mentioned the other day in a different post, but it's funny that having these superhubs with their endless connections might allow for international carriers to successfully begin service to the airport but the fact that they are superhubs of one airline means that this airline normally ends up getting the most international expansion. Sort of a catch-22.

I wonder how many carriers over the years have considered serving airports like ATL or DFW but back away late in the game due to what the hub carrier might or might not do in retaliation.


User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5618 times:

Altough fortress IAH seems to be bucking this trend with EK, QR and SQ as of late in addition to some cargo newbies. Must be all that black gold.

This leaves IAH with TA, AC, AM, EH, BA, LH, KL (with a privatair BBJ too), AF, SQ, QR (Dec) and Sonair after having lost CI, JM and Cayman. a KE and JJ would add some nice non-euro widebodies. I don't think SQ will make it....loads are struggling (apart from the technology conference weeks)



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5583 times:

I'm afraid that the "stranglehold" of which you speak of at ATL is probably here to stay. DL has discovered that they not only have a great O&D market, but the connecting possibilities are tremendous. Factor in the very loyal frequent flyers, and you're talking a market virtually saturated by the one airline.

I also think of places such as DFW, MSP, and PHL in terms of a one-airline airport, although that isn't technically true. All the majors (except WN) fly into all three, and all three have at least one non-alliance carrier flying into them. However, when one looks at the percent of traffic that flows through there on the dominant carrier, one can see why it's tough to enter the market. WN is definitely chipping away at US at PHL, but for now MSP and DFW are pretty much the domain of NW and AA.

As for international carriers, other than possibly more SkyTeam members flying in, I don't think Atlanta has the draw necessary. The New York area, Chicago, and Los Angeles (and maybe San Francisco, Washington DC, and Boston) are the locations that are the first choice for foreign carriers, mainly for their O&D passengers. Besides, if there's money to be made on an international route from ATL, DL is already looking into it.

Now, having said that, I never would have believed that KLM would start flying to DFW - in fact, I half joked that I expected to say hourly DFW-AMS flights to drive them out!! But that didn't happen, so anything is possible...



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5560 times:



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 2):
Altough fortress IAH seems to be bucking this trend with EK, QR and SQ as of late in addition to some cargo newbies. Must be all that black gold.

Well yeah, it makes perfect sense that those carriers would serve IAH given how big the oil industry is in that market.

I wonder how quick they'll be to pull out, though, if CO starts hurling 777s over there.

ATL is at the point now where every international carrier now competes with DL on their routes. Hell, every domestic carrier competes with DL to ATL as well. Kinda leaves you with only one choice if you're a frequent flyer... which I'm sure is the idea.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7554 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5505 times:

I dont think there really is a future of foriegn carriers at ATL. The only real hope is to attract carriers that partner with DL. Im not sure how LH does, but I can tell you that BA's ATL-LGW route is the laughing stock of BA's Transatlantic route. Its one of the reasons that BA didnt think ATL was worth a LHR slot. It was initally understood that ATL-LGW would go with DFW and IAH to LHR, but it didnt hapen.

Taking a look at DFW (my home away from home airport), they are dealing with much of the same. They fare a little better for the reason that AA isnt as agressive with growth at DFW as DL is at ATL. The local markets (both internationally and domestic) are about the same size, yet DFW has had good success with KE and LH even though they have no alliance with AA. I imagine that once AA adds DFW-PVG and PEK, KE might struggle a bit, because China is a big feeder of that flight. KL just started there and loads look good for the summer season ahead, but its still too early to tell.

IAH fares the best with foriegn flag carriers. In addition to the Houston being a much more international city than Dallas or Atlanta, CO isnt agressive with IAH in the least. This leaves room for foreign flags to come fill the void.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5504 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Thread starter):
Has this happened before with other carriers/routes? I've kinda wondered if DL got their routes to GIG/GRU around the time RG stopped flights to ATL. I'm actually pretty surprised JM continues to fly here now that DL no longer codeshares flights to MBJ.

ATL is one of JM's most profitable routes as there is a sizable ( and growing ) number of loyal Jamaicans and to a greater extent Caribbean population there and even with DL's ( sometimes up to 3 daily ) flights into MBJ without the code share agreement they both had, JM have no intentions of abandoning this route anytime soon. There is also the tourist traffic from that city as well. At one point JM had two dailys into MBJ out of ATL but that was prior to DL starting that route. I fully understand what you are saying re the limited international birds that fly out of ATL. I stayed on the 4th Floor of the Ramada Plaza in College Park while I was vacationing there in 2005 and I had a great view of the airport. I enjoyed seeing the 4 simultaneous take offs/landings from morning to night but you could count the few international carriers easily that serve the city.



greenheart
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5474 times:



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 2):
Altough fortress IAH seems to be bucking this trend

IAH is an anomaly though... the exception not the rule. And a lot of that has to do with the home carrier's nigh-negligent interest in basing intercontinental nonstops therefrom.

Try to think of an intercon route outta Houston, that has competition, where CO isn't dominated (or at least matched) in frequencies/capacity by the competitor.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
The New York area, Chicago, and Los Angeles (and maybe San Francisco, Washington DC, and Boston) are the locations that are the first choice for foreign carriers, mainly for their O&D passengers.

....something about this lil' place on the tip of Florida?  Wink


User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3939 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5468 times:

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 2):
Altough fortress IAH seems to be bucking this trend with EK, QR and SQ as of late in addition to some cargo newbies. Must be all that black gold.

This leaves IAH with TA, AC, AM, EH, BA, LH, KL (with a privatair BBJ too), AF, SQ, QR (Dec) and Sonair after having lost CI, JM and Cayman. a KE and JJ would add some nice non-euro widebodies. I don't think SQ will make it....loads are struggling (apart from the technology conference weeks)

IAH has been fortunate for the most part. As you mentioned, we have seen a number of carriers depart IAH, namely JM, KX, 6A, PK, CI and as for SQ well it looks doubtful that it will complete a full calender year at IAH as you implied. As a matter of fact we have lost more than we have gained. Like ATL and DFW, I suspect that the loss of the Latin/Caribbean carriers are likely due to CO's heavy push into this region from IAH over the years.

Quoting Delta763 (Reply 4):
I wonder how quick they'll be to pull out, though, if CO starts hurling 777s over there.

Good question, I suppose it all depends on how strong of a reputation that will have been built up with EK, QR and SQ (if they survive at IAH). CO has hardly scared off KL, BA, LH, and AF, if anything they have only gotten stronger. My personal opinion is that despite all of the rhetoric and promises coming from Smith St with regards to major int'l expansion from IAH, EWR will always be their 'fair haired boy' for obvious reasons, while tossing IAH a few scarps, e.g, HKG, DXB, ect... At the end of the day I believe that will be a good thing, as it might make IAH more attractive to additional int'l carriers.

As for ATL, well, as others have already indicated, it is all up to big DL, if they want to play nice and share ATL.

Thomas

[Edited 2008-05-12 15:18:48]


"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22876 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5108 times:

I wonder how much of a game-changer the 787/350 will be for places like ATL (and DFW). Neither is a small city and both are growing (ATL at a fairly good clip, and I imagine that DFW isn't growing much, if at all, more slowly). Other things being equal, that means more demand, and I think the combination of increased demand and greater flexibility means that we'll see more international carriers at both in the future.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineGlobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5087 times:

It is interesting that EK has been advertising for jobs (all types) in the AJC (Atlanta Journal-Constitution) on more than one occasion...but my thinking is that they probably are doing this same type of advert all over the major USA cities. Actually the Cargo business has been the interesting draw in ATL of late as it is not uncommon to see AZ, LH, BA, MP, SA)">WO, JL, KE and CX all their own metal...though at times it is in the middle of the night or very early morning.

ATL has lost the likes of UP, KX, JL, RG, LAPA (forgot their code), SA, SN, SR, OS and I am sure others but as stated before most of those carriers at the time had a code share with DL when they were flying into ATL.

Would be cool to at least get other SkyTeam members into ATL like OK, SU, AZ, CZ, CM, KQ but I do not think that will ever happen. Would also love to see some others like TA, MX, AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ, etc enter the field. I love DL and have been Platinum for years but it still would be nice to look at other carriers. Sometimes you will see a new bird like the AM 777 in the DL Tech Ops building.

As for Domestics, I think that the only ones we are lacking are AS, VX, WN (will never happen) and B6 (been there done that and left). Though there is not too much space if any left as I know that FL is looking for additional space. If the DL/NW merger goes through I could see that they would have to give up the other end of Concourse C as a part of the merger?



Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5043 times:

BA to ATL doesn't even sell F tickets, I believe. There simply isn't demand enough. ATL is a great airport and city, but unless connecting on DL, your connection options are quite limited. DL is on the other side of that -- their national network feeds into ATL quite efficiently, allowing a large number of options connecting out to Europe particularly.

So if, say, RJ wanted to fly into ATL, unless you've got lots of O/D traffic, there is no OW for your pax to connect onto.

Finnair would be another example, etc.

Where AF, KLM, etc can codeshare to many other destinations they don't want to fly to themselves.

In short, Fortress ATL is going to stay Fortress for a while.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 647 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5001 times:

It's exactly that...a SA)">DL gateway. The airports that attract foreign flag-carriers are the ones where the O&D is the highest- JFK, EWR, BOS, MIA, LAX, ORD, SFO, and possibly IAD. That being said, when you have an american carrier(s) as a friendly, then it makes sense to use their particular hubs instead/in addition to your own gateways...one of the reasons why some European carriers use EWR more/instead of JFK (or vice versa) because their alliance partner has a hub and they benefit from the codeshares/connections. It's why MEM was able to attract KL for as long as it did because of the SA)">NW/KL alliance...and why QF apparently has DFW on its short list of new TPAC flights.

One poster above was correct...SN, OS, SR, SA, RG, and JL all did serve ATL...and all were SA)">DL codeshares at the time to build up SA)">DL's international route network until SA)">DL could put its own metal in said cities. As far as AS coming, IIRC they did want to serve ATL and were about to announce service (probably with a SA)">DL codeshare as well) when FL got wind of it and launched the route...at which point AS abandoned those plans.

What's more likely to happen, as SkyTeam develops, is that SA)">DL is more likely to allow partner carriers to serve other SkyTeam hubs on their behalf, while SA)">DL feeds the other SkyTeam hubs itself from ATL on the partners' behalf.



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4935 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Reply 4):
I wonder how quick they'll be to pull out, though, if CO starts hurling 777s over there.

EK..pull out....laughable! Ek will hurl some 380s in a premium layout back!

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
IAH fares the best with foriegn flag carriers. In addition to the Houston being a much more international city than Dallas or Atlanta

Careful, Careful....I do love Houston and I agree with you, but there are some on this forum who are going to flame you...They will say something like "do you even know how many foreign embassies are located around Stone Mountain"
 Big grin



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4891 times:



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 13):
"do you even know how many foreign embassies are located around Stone Mountain"

answer: 0


User currently offlineBriGuyinHou From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4891 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Neither is a small city and both are growing (ATL at a fairly good clip, and I imagine that DFW isn't growing much, if at all, more slowly).

Actually last year Dallas/Fort Worth was the fastest growing metro area, followed by Atlanta, Phoenix and Houston.



I've travelled the world and the seven seas. Everybody is looking for something.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4844 times:



Quoting BriGuyinHou (Reply 15):
Actually last year Dallas/Fort Worth was the fastest growing metro area, followed by Atlanta,

....though it's confusingly worded, if you'll read what he wrote in its entirety, he's not disagreeing with you.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22876 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4834 times:



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 16):
....though it's confusingly worded, if you'll read what he wrote in its entirety, he's not disagreeing with you.

 checkmark I really must try to drink coffee before posting in the morning.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4835 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Thread starter):
but not enough to fill a 744... incidentally, the only one that carries passengers here.

AF, off and on, serves ATL with a 744. Has LH ever done so?

Quoting Delta763 (Reply 4):
I wonder how quick they'll be to pull out, though, if CO starts hurling 777s over there.

Now there's a mental image: Smith street saying, "GO-GO GADGET ARMS," reaching out to IAH, picking up a 777, and hurling it toward the Middle East.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
IAH fares the best with foriegn flag carriers. In addition to the Houston being a much more international city than Dallas or Atlanta, CO isnt agressive with IAH in the least. This leaves room for foreign flags to come fill the void.

I think CO would like to be aggressive; they do, though, seem to be having the most terrible time finding widebody lift. Surely the additional 777's and the 787's (whenever they finally get delivered) will begin to change that equation.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
IAH is an anomaly though... the exception not the rule. And a lot of that has to do with the home carrier's nigh-negligent interest in basing intercontinental nonstops therefrom.

I don't think they're ignoring IAH as a base for long-haul routes. Right now, if I'm not mistaken, they have LHR, LGW, CDG, AMS, GRU (and GIG), EZE, HNL, and NRT served with widebodies. They also fly all over northern South America with narrowbodies, and let's not even talk about the ERJ's to every cow pasture in Mexico. The fact is, CO is sitting on two goldmines (the other being at EWR), and it happens EWR is bigger and, crucially, in range of 757's from Europe. When the 787's arrive, CO will have the option of adding flights from IAH to overseas destinations not currently served from there.

And how does IAH compare to DFW, ATL, MSP, etc. with regard to raw population figures?


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7554 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4798 times:



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 18):
And how does IAH compare to DFW, ATL, MSP, etc. with regard to raw population figures?

DFW is the largest, followed by IAH, ATL, and MSP (of the cities you listed).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_metropolitan_area



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7554 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

I found a better source for Metropolitan Area Populations. Its not wikipedia, so thats good. These estimates are from 2007. Over the last several years Atlanta, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Houston have been the fastest growing areas of the country. In 2006 Atlanta grew the most and in 2007 Dallas/Fort Worth grew the most.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/.../releases/archives/cb07-51tbl2.xls



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4678 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
Factor in the very loyal frequent flyers, and you're talking a market virtually saturated by the one airline.

Well, the whole frequent flyer idea kinda feeds into the hub dominance idea and vice versa. I know if you live in Atlanta, the only FF program that makes sense is DL. Any others would only offer at most a couple destination options for award flights, whereas DL is virtually unlimited.

But then as a result of that, even if another carrier is really competitive, you've got people who are willing to pay more on a flight that earns them miles. I know I have.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
I dont think there really is a future of foriegn carriers at ATL. The only real hope is to attract carriers that partner with SA)">DL. Im not sure how LH does, but I can tell you that BA's ATL-LGW route is the laughing stock of BA's Transatlantic route. Its one of the reasons that BA didnt think ATL was worth a LHR slot. It was initally understood that ATL-LGW would go with DFW and IAH to LHR, but it didnt hapen.

I figured the only thing that kept BA and LH flying here is that they managed to find enough O&D market in ATL, and at that, people who aren't loyal SkyMiles collectors. I know if I was flying to England, I wouldn't even bother looking to see if BA's fares are better because I want the miles. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

If BA is having trouble filling the planes and didn't even think the destination was worth a link to LHR (which is interesting seeing as DL thought otherwise), I wonder why they even bother to keep flying the route. Maybe they make up for it in cargo? I suppose there may be enough Brits and Germans with business interests here to keep them coming.

I'm not saying there isn't a market for International travel out of ATL. It just seems like it would be a struggle to operate here without endorsement from DL... not just through codeshared feeder traffic, but through frequent flyer partnerships as well.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
Houston being a much more international city than Dallas or Atlanta

Hey! Do you even know how many foreign embassies are located around Stone Mountain!?

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 8):
EWR will always be their 'fair haired boy' for obvious reasons, while tossing IAH a few scarps, e.g, HKG, DXB, ect...

That's one big difference between DL's and CO's strategy that I've found interesting. DL has been just as, if not more agressive about expanding ATL's reach as they have with JFK, which seems the obvious choice for a primary international hub.

I always kinda figured CO could turn IAH into another, perhaps even bigger ATL, if they wanted to. You could argue that ATL has a geographical advantage, but I think there's more to it than that.

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 8):
As for ATL, well, as others have already indicated, it is all up to big SA)">DL, if they want to play nice and share ATL.

Quoting Globalflyer (Reply 10):
ATL has lost the likes of UP, KX, JL, RG, LAPA (forgot their code), SA, SN, SR, OS and I am sure others but as stated before most of those carriers at the time had a code share with SA)">DL when they were flying into ATL.

I think DL have made it pretty clear that they want ATL to themselves. Looking at the history of international codeshare operators, it seems you'd be silly to enter into a codeshare agreement with DL to ATL. They'd start operating the route themselves and drive you out eventually.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 13):
EK..pull out....laughable! Ek will hurl some 380s in a premium layout back!

A380s to Houston? Good luck keeping those filled.

[Edited 2008-05-13 12:32:38]

User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 18):
AF, off and on, serves ATL with a 744. Has LH ever done so?

AF did last summer but switched back to 340s. LH sent 744s here LONG time ago, before the 340s were prime-time. With the fleets starting to retire, I doubt we'll see any more European 744s in ATL.

Quoting Globalflyer (Reply 10):
Actually the Cargo business has been the interesting draw in ATL of late as it is not uncommon to see AZ, LH, BA, MP, WO, JL, KE and CX all their own metal...though at times it is in the middle of the night or very early morning.

That's a completely different segment of the air business, and it actually makes a lot of sense that that's the case. With the bulk of DL's international operations being on 767s, and having no dedicated cargo birds, they don't have quite the capacity to measure up to the 74F operators. It would be nice to get a view of some of those birds, but like you said, they're usually here at odd times.

[Edited 2008-05-13 12:45:04]

User currently offlineFFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4625 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Reply 21):
Hey! Do you even know how many foreign embassies are located around Stone Mountain!?

Perhaps not many embassies in Atlanta but one hell of alot of Consulates and Trade Offices from around the globe and growing!

Consulates and Trade Offices in Georgia
Atlanta is host to consular offices and trade and investment agencies for 54 governments from throughout the world, each of which enhances the city's status as an international center for culture, trade, commerce and tourism and as the Southeast's center for world trade and international business.


The Atlanta Consular Corps is made up of 18 career and 33 honorary consular offices. Career officials are members of their country's foreign service while honorary officials are local residents appointed by foreign governments to perform consular duties. The Dean of the Consular Corps, currently the Honorable Natalio Jamer, Consul General for Argentina, is the career official with the longest tenure in Atlanta.

Twenty-nine foreign governments have operations in Atlanta to promote trade between their countries/regions and Georgia and the Southeast U.S. In some cases the trade promotion work is handled from within the countries' consular offices (sometimes by the consular head of post), while others maintain independent trade offices.

So not so bad after all!!!

Like to know how many Embassies are located in Houston or Dallas ? And who they are ? Just curious.


User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4615 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Reply 21):
A380s to Houston? Good luck keeping those filled.

You forget what is located i nteh middle east ..OIL....and what Houston is the capital of ....OIL.....and these days anything oil related is a license to print money.

Actually.....a premium 380 to DXB would do really well (range might still be an issue)....the F and J of the EK flights are usually booked pretty solid. Reports suggest that IAH has been one of EK most successful launches...cargo hasn't been too shabby either.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
25 Davescj : I know China, Costa Rica and Italy all maintain consuls in Houston. Dave
26 Thomasphoto60 : I am not 100% certain but I have heard that H-Town ranks #3 with regards to consular representation, behind NYC and LA (#4 if you throw in D.C.s emba
27 SESGDL : DL's ATL hub is the largest on earth, with over 55 million people flying in and out of ATL on Delta or Delta Connection, CO at IAH doesn't offer half
28 Thomasphoto60 : There are no embassies in Houston, they are all in D.C. Embassies are in a given country's capital. Consulates are often located in cities of a host
29 LAXdude1023 : The old expression that my geography professor used to say is that "Houston is Texas' Gateway to the world and Dallas is the Worlds Gateway to the US
30 Bartond : Right, and DL & ATL also don't have an EWR in the northeast like CO & IAH do. CO has and will probably always decide to route a lot of its US-to-Euro
31 ConcordeBoy : ...and what strategy would that be?
32 Cubsrule : IAH is in a really lousy location for flights to South America and Europe. That might be too much of a geographic disadvantage for CO to overcome reg
33 COflyerBOS : I am not sure about Dallas, but Houston now has 88 Consular Generals or Honary Consular offices. About 55 to 60 of them appear to be Consular General
34 LAXdude1023 : Europe yes, South America no. IAH has a good location for flights to South America.
35 Cubsrule : IAH is too far west to effectively serve as a hub for flights to most of South America. Remember that the vast majority of the continent is west of N
36 LAXdude1023 : For you guys out East maybe, but the majority or the people out West prefer to use DFW and IAH (and to a lesser degree ATL and MIA). Therefore IAH wo
37 Cubsrule : Is that why DFW-SCL is such a stellar passenger performer? I'll grant that it prints money on cargo, but the passenger loads don't portend good thing
38 Bartond : Alright, maybe "strategy" is not the right term as I am not on their strategic planning team but they seem to be losing less money than the rest of t
39 COalways : With CO widebody arrivals in the next year or so i can see them expanding there IAH international Flight to more parts of europe, MiddleEast and espec
40 Thomasphoto60 : I sincerely doubt that CO will "'shove EK out of Houston". EK hit the ground running at IAH and has had full planes ever since and rumors are rampant
41 LAXdude1023 : DFW-SCL isnt the best example. DFW/IAH-EZE/GRU however do good on passenger loads. I can also tell you that yeilds on DFW-GRU are very very good. AA
42 Cubsrule : SCL is certainly more indicative of the possibilities for future expansion than the largest markets in Brazil and Argentina. ATL-COR, for example, is
43 LAXdude1023 : ATL-COR might even be a strech to make work in the long term. MIA would be the only sure market that could make COR work. I doubt CO will fly IAH-SCL
44 Cubsrule : You've confused me. DFW-SCL is not a good passenger performer, but that's not because Texas is a poor place for a South America hub? If that's the ca
45 LAXdude1023 : That is part of it. SCL is a very seasonal destination. In fact passenger loads do not under preform on this route in the high season. Passenger load
46 Cubsrule : Why does ATL do better?
47 LAXdude1023 : Who said that it did?
48 DeltaL1011man : DL and SU have a 50/50 agreement. SO SU gets money off of DL's flights. (both ATL and JFK) That is what DAL Moscow is. LH and KE do very well in Atla
49 Cubsrule : Well, it's sporadically gone 10x weekly and occasionally seen aircraft upgrades. There's been nothing similar at DFW.
50 LAXdude1023 : When has it gone 10x weekly? DFW-GRU is going double daily in the heart of summer and ATL-GRU is going 11x weekly at the same time. 3 extra frequenci
51 Cubsrule : Early 2005 at least, and possibly in the next Northern Hemisphere winter as well. Agreed. That's why it's far more analogous to other marginal South
52 LAXdude1023 : I will throw one other thing to chew on. DL codeshares with no one to SCL. However not only does AA serve SCL from DFW and MIA, but they also codesha
53 Cubsrule : They don't. Like most routes to South America save those to EZE, GRU, and perhaps GIG, SCL is very marginal from Texas.
54 LAXdude1023 : You missed my point. Its marginal from everywhere, not just Texas.
55 Cubsrule : Yup, but ATL's location makes it less marginal from there.
56 LAXdude1023 : ATL has a better locale. You wont get an arguement there. Thats doesnt make Texas a bad place to connect to South America. For me its much better tha
57 BOStonsox : This is why I love BOS: a focus city for AA (oneWorld), DL (Skyteam) and US (Star), and B6 may offer connections on other airlines someday through her
58 Cubsrule : That's my whole argument, though. For marginal routes, you can't afford to be out of the way for 150 million people.
59 LAXdude1023 : Fair enough. Do you have a link? I find it strange that IAH isnt on there.
60 Delta763 : Wow, I had no idea. Does SU codeshare those flights? Is the SU JFK-SVO flight a similar arrangement? Well, the competition is a lot more fierce in BO
61 MAH4546 : You had no idea because that isn't true. Not only do SU and DL not split profits 50/50, but SU and DL don't codeshare. It went 10x weekly once, not s
62 Davescj : I wonder if as DL gets new widebodies, they will increase service to Latin/South America. Already, as pointed out above, CO goes anywhere they can thi
63 Cubsrule : I'm certain they did in 04/05... it's 05/06 I'm not sure about.
64 Yellowtail : Might be worlds better..but, but does it have the high LF in F and J like IAH..I don't see any KLM BBJ at ATLs,,in the end it is about $$$$$..and rig
65 COflyerBOS : If IAH is such a bad connecting hub to South America, then why are there flights to CCS, BOG, CLO, UIO, GYE, LIM, EZE, and GRU/GIG? And, why are those
66 SESGDL : That will definitely happen in the future. ATM, ATL is pretty maxed out for service to South America, DL's pretty much covered every market that they
67 Delta763 : I was about to say almost exactly that, but you beat me to it. I didn't know about the FLL-SDQ history, though. I will add that yes, DL has plenty of
68 Cubsrule : The KLM BBJs go to South America?!? I must have missed something... Europe and Latin America are totally different markets. I never said it's a bad S
69 Yellowtail : IAH-CLO DOES NOT MAKE ANY MONEY...loads are not good....CO keeps it to lock other out
70 DiscoverCSG : The vast majority of North America is west of New York. By "the continent," did you mean to say South America? If so, most of it is, in fact, east of
71 Mayor : I wonder why they would bother being a member of Skyteam, then?
72 MAH4546 : Delta has already expanded into JFK-Central America, and they very quickly retreated. JFK-PTY was suspended after a month; JFK-GUA is going away, too
73 St530 : Do you guys have sources for this? Not doubting you, just wondering the source. I saw the other thread about SQ's advertising and one guy who counted
74 Davescj : As far as the MIA operation, I would think AA would just lock them out. AA already has such a massive presence in Miami. Even UA isn't really there t
75 Gsosbee : I flew DFW/SLC twice weekly for 18 months. The few mainline planes were full; the regional planes sucked. Also, flying DFW/SLC to get to LAS, PHX, SA
76 LAXdude1023 : Youre confusing SCL for SLC. We were talking about Santiago, Chile not Salt Lake City, UT.
77 Post contains links Thomasphoto60 : From IAH spotters...... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iahspottersclub/message/29606 Let's first realize that SIA didn't start IAH service until March
78 OA412 : But on the positive side SJO and LIR both remain. By the way, when does GUA go away? It is still showing in the schedules.
79 Bobnwa : Where on earth did you get that idea? Do you just make up things? I really suggest you go back to Airlines 101 as suggested before
80 Cubsrule : Yeah, I meant to say that most of South America is east of New York. New York is almost straight north of Lima.
81 Viscount724 : Many people think South America is further west than it is. If you fly due south from Detroit you'll miss South America completely. You'll be over th
82 DeltaL1011man : DAL Moscow, Inc., a 50/50 partnership with Aeroflot Then maybe it hasn't started..........yet
83 MAH4546 : That doesn't change the fact that DL and SU do not revenue/profit share between the U.S. and Russia. Not maybe. It actually hasn't started, and becau
84 Delta763 : Too bad. I'd be perfectly fine with losing half our international carriers if we started seeing Il-96s in ATL!
85 DeltaL1011man : That woiuldn't happen. DL would fly the route not SU.
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