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Airbus Selling A380 With 40% Discount: Biz. Week  
User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

Giving `Em Away?

The incentives Airbus is using to sell its A380 now may backfire later

Beaming proudly, Airbus Industrie sales chief John J. Leahy strolls through a life-size mock-up of the A380 superjumbo jet at company headquarters in Toulouse, France. He lingers in the luxurious first-class cabin with its wood-paneled library and wine bar and lets his voice echo through the cavernous economy cabin, big enough for more than 550 passengers on two decks. Then he fixes his visitor with an intense gaze. ``Isn't this the way you want to fly?'' he asks.
It's an impressive pitch--and it's working. Since July, Leahy has logged 60 orders for the A380, which even can be configured to hold up to 800 passengers. It will be the biggest commercial aircraft ever made. Leahy has made archrival Boeing Co. look like an also-ran as he has signed up industry pacesetters such as Singapore Airlines and Federal Express and lured away Boeing stalwarts such as Qantas Airways. Indeed, Boeing hasn't won a single order for a stretch version of the venerable 747 that it's offering as an alternative to the A380.
A dazzling start, no doubt. But is it a good deal for Airbus? BusinessWeek has learned that the company is giving extraordinarily generous terms to early buyers. It's selling the cargo model of the A380 for as low as $133 million and the passenger model for just over $140 million--about 40% off list prices and less than the going rate of $140 million to $150 million for Boeing's 747. Airbus is accepting down payments as low as $500,000 per plane while giving customers the option of canceling orders 12 months before delivery without customary penalties. Airbus has offered lenient terms to buyers of established models before. But experts say it's unusual to offer them on a new plane.
True, manufacturers always sweeten the pot for first-time buyers of new aircraft, discounting them and throwing in everything from free pilot training to spare parts. And Leahy, a New Yorker who joined Airbus in 1985, is renowned for luring customers. His dealmaking skills helped the European company break into the U.S. market in the 1980s and boost its global market share from 21% to nearly 50% in the past five years. But, says an airline executive who has seen the terms Leahy is offering on the A380, ``I don't know of a deal that has ever been quite this generous.''
These concessions only steepen the already difficult path to profitability for the A380. To meet its break-even targets, Airbus says it expects to deliver 250 superjumbos by 2011. But to offset the deep discounts and raise needed working capital, it will have to demand bigger up-front payments from future customers and charge them close to list prices--$218 million to $235 million, says aerospace analyst Paul H. Nisbet of Newport (R.I.)-based JSA Research. Cost-conscious airlines won't readily agree to pay 40% more than their competitors did, say industry watchers. And Airbus has already plucked hot prospects, such as Singapore, Qantas, and Virgin Atlantic Airways, whose Asia and Pacific routes are well-suited to the mammoth jet.
Airbus isn't the only one at risk. To help finance development costs of at least $10.7 billion, it is counting on $2.5 billion in loans from European governments and $3.1 billion in credits from companies such as Saab, Fokker Aerospace, and Taiwan's AIDC, which are supplying major components of the plane. If Leahy can't keep orders rolling in, or if purchases are canceled or delayed, Airbus could be hard-pressed to meet its loan repayment schedules, analysts say.
NO GAMBLE. Airbus says such grim scenarios are nonsense. ``This is anything but a gamble,'' says CEO Noel Forgeard. Chief Financial Officer Andreas Sperl says Airbus should average a 20% pretax margin on the A380 over the next 20 years, well above the industry average. The company says it can hold down costs because the A380's design is closely related to smaller models and because its factories tend to be more efficient than Boeing's. Airbus seems to be humming along smoothly: Last year, it booked a record $41.3 billion in orders. The European Aeronautics Defence & Space Co., which owns 80% of Airbus, says the planemaker accounted for 60% of its revenues and nearly all its operating profits last year.
Airbus, while acknowledging that it expects A380 orders to fall off this year, predicts the pace will soon pick up because of the plane's efficiency. With maximum seating capacity nearly double the 420 on the biggest 747s flying today--Airbus says the A380 will cost at least 17% less per seat to operate than the 747. That could give carriers a big edge on long-haul routes. Boeing says Airbus has overestimated demand because most air-traffic growth will occur on routes between smaller cities, where huge planes aren't needed. That's why Boeing has opted for a stretch 747, designed to carry up to 520 passengers. Retorts Leahy: ``They're just flailing around looking for something to compete with us.''
By 2008, less than two years after the scheduled delivery of the first A380 to Singapore Airlines, Airbus plans to ramp up production to 50 superjumbos per year and sustain that rate for more than a decade to maintain production efficiency. That means Leahy's sales staff will have to line up dozens more orders when only a handful of planes are in service. The carriers couldn't be happier. ``I'm happy to put Boeing and Airbus into a box and let them thrash it out,'' says Peter Gardner, a vice-president at Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., which is being wooed by Leahy.
Leahy shows no signs of letting up. To hammer out Federal Express Corp.'s order for 10 planes, he visited FedEx CEO Fred Smith's home last year while Smith was recovering from open-heart surgery. He sealed Virgin's order for five planes in a 1 a.m. phone call with Chairman Richard Branson. Leahy's biggest challenge now is Japan, where Tokyo's Narita Airport should be a prime destination for superjumbo flights.
AD: BOEING. Here Boeing has a daunting advantage. Japanese airlines give 80% of their plane orders to the U.S. company, which has cultivated strong ties by giving contracts to local manufacturers. Dimming Airbus' hopes for an A380 sale in Japan, Boeing recently struck a deal with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. to produce the wings for the planned stretch version of the 747. Leahy has beefed up Airbus' sales operation in Tokyo and is scouting for deals with Japanese manufacturers. But he admits those efforts may not pay off quickly.
Boeing has worries of its own. Several years of production bottlenecks cost the company dearly. Boeing executives reckon that Wall Street wouldn't approve of their investing billions to develop their own superjumbo. But if the A380 catches on, Boeing would be hard-pressed to catch up. The 747 can't be stretched further than 520 seats, and designing a new plane would take years. For Boeing and Airbus, the dogfight of the century is only beginning.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWatewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

Wow, $500,000 downpayment? I'm starting to think I can afford one.

A few things...
40% discount sounds a little steep and the terms in which airlines 'supposedly' signed with Airbus would have made airlines look stupid NOT to buy. With the generous cancellation clause and deep discount, carriers have very little to lose in this game.

50 will be produced a year? That sounds quite ambitious. Not that I doubt Airbus' production capability, but like aforementioned, it will take quite an effort on their sales team's part to keep it sprinting along that rate.

It will be a field day when A380 first rolls off the assembly line. Can't wait to see it fly.


User currently offlineCliperb777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

Surprise surprise!!!!...gotta sell the airplane somehow..hehe. Airbus will lose tons money and get bailed by the govertments of Germany, Spain, and France later.

User currently offlineFly-By-Pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

No big surprise. How else would they sell a plane that nobody needs.

User currently offlineMagyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3591 times:

Guys, but how do you know how much the plane
really costs to produce? You can put the planes
list price at 1 billion and sell for $250 million and
that is an enormous 75% discount. I heard that a 20-30%
discount is always built in the listprice (both Boeing
and Airbus). What if Airbus can actually produce
an A380 for the price of a B747. Than this 40%
discount is indeed less 5-10%.

Janos


User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3587 times:

Sounds like a little dirty Airbus tactic to sell their plane. Airbus sells their planes cheap, barely makes a profit to gain a larger % of the market, EU bails them out.

User currently offlineArchie Bunker From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3578 times:

Airbus sells their planes cheap...

It's called "dumping".


...gain a larger % of the market

Dot.com strategy.


User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

What nobody has mentioned so far - OK, which Airbus basher wants to see the whole truth? - is, that we are talking about launch customers. And that's pretty normal to sell new aircraft at low prices. Even the good one, Boeing, plays the same game. Do you really think, Boeing will sell their B747x at list price? Do you really think, SIA paid the list price for their B777 in 1999?

Come on! Wake up! That's business!

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineMriihi From Finland, joined Aug 2000, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3551 times:

Would there be anything to discuss if Boeing was the builder of this great plane? You US guys are about to see a great plane.

What you do not see, is that discounts and actual productioncosts have very little to nothing to do with eachother. Airlines are only interested how much money they have to have to get the plane. You do not go to shoestore and say,-"I want those shoes and I pay 40%!" Its always money you are giving away and you get something back. At this point Airlines have made the calculations that the money for that plane is OK. They can make their routes profitable and that counts for everything. This is not so complicated you make it.

M


User currently offlineN628AU From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

It's one thing to sell a bunch of launch customer aircraft at a big discount when there is a market to several hundred, if not thousand. Quite another when you may only sell 200, and 25+% of your market has already been sold a drastically slashed prices. If you thought it was bad with Clinton threatening the E.U., I think Bush will be a whole new ballgame when it comes to protecting U.S. industries.

User currently offlineMriihi From Finland, joined Aug 2000, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3539 times:

When do people start to understand that Listprice and discount out of listprice does not tell you anything. Absolutely nothing. Listprice is something that someone has written. This is not a new car what we are talking about i.e if you want alloywheels it is +200$. These planes cost hunderds of millions$. The listprice is artificial piece of paper and like in any "bigger" business the buyer tells what he/she wants, and then the manufacturer tells the price it thinks will get the deal done. If these two parts see eye to eye the deal is complete. No one is interested in listprice but the one who wants to make noise about not getting the deal. The biggest fear for US manufacturers is coming true. A380 will fly and Boeing has nothing even closely similar to offer, that is the reason why this 40% discount thing is on the wall right now.

M


User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1837 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

OK, for all the Airbus-bashers on this forum....

FOR HOW MUCH APIECE DID BOEING SELL THE 747-100 TO PAN AMERICAN WORLD AIRWAYS AND BRITISH OVERSEAS AIRLINE CORPORATION, THE LAUNCH CUSTOMERS?

I think you'll find they are quite low figures.

And for god sake, the EU countries give Airbus "refundable launch aid" for new projects. Such as the A320 loan which has been paid off and now the UK, France and Germany EARN MONEY ON EVERY A319/20/21 SOLD!!!!!

But as for Boeing and its defence contracts...


User currently offlineMriihi From Finland, joined Aug 2000, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3502 times:

WOHOOOOOOOOU!!! What could we possibly find on that topic?

M



User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2277 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

It's telling what the quoted airline exec said, he's NEVER seen any offers quite so generous before. Forget what the "Americans" on the forum are saying, focus instead on what an independent industry expert is saying. Between the airline exec, the author, and Paul Nisbet all three seem to agree that Airbus is making extraordinary offers to sell the 380. Of all the carriers that signed so far, at least 6 of the 7 had already stated a strong preference for the plane, maybe all 7 (not sure about Fedex). Plus, the 380 marketing campaign, brilliant as it is and hats off that that other "ignorant American" Leahy, is at least 3 years ahead of the 747X. Any Airbus fans who think this game is over and Airbus has already "won" are very sadly mistaken. At some point, Airbus will have to jack up the prices or it will simply never turn a dime on this project. Boeing can sell the 747X at lower prices than the 380 if Airbus is not dumping. The investment price alone makes it easy for even a fool to understand. A $4B plane costs LESS than a $12B plane.

User currently offlineFrankyA340 From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Personally, I could care less whether Airbus is giving discounts, will be financially strapped. I would never buy the stock.

As an aviation enthusiast though, all I care about is being next to the runway when that puppy takes off or lands. The Concorde sure is a white elephant, but I would bet not 1 person on this site cares when staring at its beauty.

Let's get the A380 built!!!!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineLowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Pan Am got the 741 at $20 million apiece. That was not a big discount back then, as inflation has gone up 10-15 times by now.

User currently offlineAirbusDriver From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Boeing sold the 777 to El Al for 100 million a piece!!!

Bush can mind his owne probleme if you US guy's think that we are scare of him you got it all wrong, what do you think that he can tell us in europe at what price to sell our planes???


User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

40% discount? I'll take one. I was just waiting for the price to drop.

JET


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

You are ignoring the facts stated in the article: At some point, the deep discounts must stop. And when they do, who will be there to buy this huge plane??? Many of the target customers have bought it ALREADY.

The question is: When does Airbus start charging full price (the price needed to recoup development costs as calculated by the article -- in the $200 million range)????

And WHO will be willing or able to purchase these planes, knowing that many of the most financially viable airlines that CAN, (Singapore, Virgin, Qantas) have already done so?

I am not an Airbus basher. They make good planes. I do have an Economics/Finance background, though, and it seems like the A380 will barely break even, if it breaks even at all. Of course, this should not matter to aviation enthusiasts. But to business people, it might. (and to European taxpayers who may have to eat the development costs a la the Concorde).


User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5534 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

We'll never settle this thing here; only time and market conditions will do so.

The fundamental variable here is this: will the market absorb as many of the super-jumbo jets as Airbus projects?

If yes, advantage: Airbus. If no, EU taxpayers get to subsidize the company.

As for me, I remain skeptical about the number of these behemoths needed, but as pouplation densities continue to increase around the world, they may yet be what's needed.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32888 posts, RR: 71
Reply 20, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

This is pathetic. Can somebody say "jealous Boeing fans"?


a.
User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

hrm.. seems like Airbus is just another employment agency.


Must be nice to have the European governments control the industry sector.

I appreciate the capitalistic democracy here in the U.S.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineWN boy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

I am so tired of the constant European argument that Boeing's defense contracts amount to governmental subsidies. The people espousing this view are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest. Either way, it is just plain wrong.

Boeing, in order to get a defense contract, must compete on the open market against Lockheed Martin, Ratheon, Bell Helicopter, and others. This is what it is presently doing in the "fly-off" for the Joint Strike Fighter with Lockheed. The Department of Defense purchases whichever is the best plane for the best price. (If they didn't, can you imagine the congressional hearings.) This costs Boeing an enormous sum in research and development, an amount that it is not assurred of recouping as the DoD could opt for the Lockheed model or scrap the program altogether. Even if the government does purchase the JSF from Boeing, Boeing's prices do not accord that much profit because of the bidding process against Lockheed during the test phase. In essence, when it signs a defense contract with Boeing, the government gets something for a good price.

By way of contrast, when it provides its "loans" to Airbus, European governments do not receive anything. Moreover, they are not assurred of repayment. It is these "loans," which if defaulted upon are nothing more than governmental subsidies, that permit Airbus to develop this ridiculous aircraft for which there is no demand just so that the EU can stand up and say, "see, we make the biggest airplane." (And, yes, we all know that is what this is really about)

For the record, Airbus is free to enter the defense aircraft industry. I am certain that there would be less bitching on this side of the pond if Airbus received government money in exchange for military aircraft rather than in exchange for nothing as is presently the case. Indeed, if the military contracts business is half as lucrative as Airbus alleges, one would certainly expect that they would have long ago followed Boeing's lead and developed fighters, transports, and bombers for European air forces. The fact that Airbus does not take this action, opting instead merely to collect its "loans," speaks volumes about the validity of their "government contract as subsidy" argument.


User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

I absolutely don't care whether Airbus sells something with discount or not, gets subsidies or not. I'm happy to see SST landing here at JFK (hope it comes back) and, being an American taxpayer, I'll be happy if Boeing gets a subsidy to develop something REALLY new (not another five-decker 5,000 seater). BUT: stop this "Boeing military contracts" stupidity. Boeing gets money for a product, not a gift! As I once said here, my software company sometimes gets government (both state and federal) orders. Of course, they pay for our work. Of course, we then use technologies and experience obtained in government projects for our work for private customers. Does it mean we get government subsidies? WN_boy is right: the people espousing this view are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

User currently offlineHeavyCapt From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

In order to avoid being "branded" and pulled into a war of words about one versus the other....I have no opinion about either except to say that I love to fly.

That being said. There are some interesting parallels here. I would suggest to all to burn up their modems and dig on the web to find out about the L1011. I think you will find some interesting info vis a vis what happened to their price after lowering it initially to overcome engine fears that the launch customers had. Bear in mind that at the time those launch customers were some of the finest carriers (read most well managed) of their pre deregulation/privitization era. Also look at the overall selling price over the life of the production run after the initial discounts. Finally look at what the L1011 did to Lockheed in terms of commercial transport production.

I am not implying that this would happen to Airbus (Not at all so please don't infer so) All that I am saying is that this set of circumstances has occurred before in this industry with less than hoped for results. Please take a look at the story before weighing in with an opinion as to whether or not Airbus will be successful. All of that being said, I believe that if there is a chance to avoid those pitfalls then Airbus and it's aggressive Marketing are most likely the ones to pull such a feat off

I hope that I have not disturbed anyone too greatly. It's just that this has evoked such emotional responses and I thought it would be interesting to point out a remarkably similar set of circumstances so that the posts may perhaps return to a more business like approach to the subject


25 AKelley728 : Well said WN boy. Let me add something else to this 'defense contract subsidy to Boeing' argument that Boeing bashers here on the forum love to throw
26 Archie Bunker : Defense/Military Sales 1999 ($m) Boeing 12,220 Total: 12,220 BAe 9,445 EADS 3,732 Total: 13,177 source: Flight International
27 Singapore_Air : I don't think any airline really buys at list price whatever that is, I hardly think that SIA would have bought is 77 whatever 777s for the list price
28 EGGD : OK i think this constant Boeing.v.Airbus war is really sad. They both make great, reliable aircraft so why do you need to argue who is best? The A380
29 Singapore_Air : Hi EGGD! I don't want this to sound horrible here but: What's wrong with an Airbus v. Boeing war? I can't get it. It must be youthfiul mentatlity!
30 Post contains images EGGD : I hate wars thats why
31 Magyar : >> Boeing, in order to get a defense contract, must compete on the open market against Lockheed Martin, Ratheon, Bell Helicopter, and others. This is
32 Post contains images Archie Bunker : ...or one can look at it this way; with a strong U.S. military (including presence in Europe) the U.S. government is indirectly subsidizing Airbus. Eu
33 WiLdmanVzla : There's a lot of screaming in Seattle... and by the way, who cares about the big subsidies?, I do care about the plane Airbus is building... and be su
34 King767 : Magyar said:>> Magyar, just about everytime someone is trying to talk the truth, if it means even saying something which is against anything European,
35 N628AU : (1) There is not a big market for VLA aircraft. There is a market, but not a big one. (2) On defense spending in the U.S.: You do not pay $100 for a t
36 ERJ135 : The war is over now. Everyone sit back and look at this silly squabbling. For a war to exist two parties or more would be fighting for the same piece
37 DatamanA340 : Korean Air got 27 737s for $1.3bil. According to Boeing's site, If anyone wants to buy 11 -800s and 16 -900s, must pay $14.8bil at least. This price c
38 L-188 : According to your numbers DatamanA340, Boeing lists a 737 at 548 Million and change....For some reason that seems just a little high....14.8B divided
39 AKelley728 : I think he meant to say 1.48b and and 1.68b, but anyways... I wonder how much of a discount Qatar is getting for it's new order of A380s
40 Kangar : Folks, It is sad to see the same junk getting talked over yet again, this topic has been discussed to death. Me personally, I think AI paid the custom
41 Cfalk : Price-cutting is a vicious tool. By drastically cutting prices, you force your competitors to do the same. By offering the A380 at a lower price than
42 Joni : The discounts offered depend on how much the suppliers "want" the deal. When Airbus and Boeing were luring SIA, you might have seen steep discounts o
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