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SAS Splits Into 4 Independant Companies!  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3834 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13820 times:

The Scandinavian airline SAS ( Scandinavian Airline System ) has decided to split into 4 independent comapnies, operating on grounds of their own airtravel approval.

Until now, all the different SAS aircraft been operated from Sweden where also the controls has been conducted.


New EU regulations make it difficult to upphold the way the company has been run to this date and that is why the 3 different national parts of SAS and also the international part gets their independant airtravel approval.

- It gives us an easier organisation and makes it easier for us to respond alot quicker, says Susanne Larsen adm. dir of SAS Denmark.


- The advantage of this model is that each of the countries gets a full out integrated airline, with local comercial and operational controll.

The authorities of the different countries can with this soulution conduct direct controll with their airline with their SAS aircraft, wich until now has not been possible due to combined Scandinavian apporval.

http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/utenriks/article1083422.ece

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2147 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13550 times:

What a mess SAS is. I hope they get their act together.

User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3306 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13308 times:

Actually, SAS already is split into four different companies, where three are on the same AOC. SAS Denmark, Sweden and Intercontinental are on the old SAS AOC, while SAS Norway are on their own. What SAS are doing here is giving each company their own AOC.

User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13030 times:

Is this the beginning of the end?

Honestly, SAS was once one of my first choices. Lately, its going from worse to worst and its got nothing to do with the fleet.

They've just given up competing properly. For all the things that apparently 'can't be done'... Finnair, with a rather lackluster long haul product succeeds.

Scandinavian products have an amazingly good reputation around the world. They're known for quality, style and ingenuity. SAS should be trading on this in a big way. They should be operating long haul flights to China and North Asia from ARN, stealing back the finnair traffic with high enough frequency for people all over the UK (outside london), Holland, Germany, Poland and the baltic states to be chosing SAS as their first preference.

Next the Business class product needs improvement. The seats can do but major upgrades to catering, service in general, a more impressive AVOD, add mood lighting to give the user the impression of a truly modern, truly Scandinavian style of product. Something the likes of Georg Jensen would sign off on. Modern, Trend Setting and Hip.
To do this though, they've got to lower their cost base so the extra goodies can be purchased in all classes on long haul.

Next... younger cheaper cabin crew need to be hired. This is a nasty issue to deal with but SAS's high costs are partly due to in the past it basically being run as a state airline with high paid jobs for all forever. This can't be sustained in this environment anymore... And hence carriers like Lufthansa and Finnair have addressed these issues. Yes it will cause pain..and its a very unswedish thing to do... but Do you want SAS to be around in 10 years, or it to morph into the next Alitalia?

Next, SAS's European concept needs change. It's Swedish domestic operations work far better then its European ones...particularly with the basic breakfasts included.
Particularly the 2 different economy cabins. The price difference is too much for a start. The cheaper prices that give you the LCC style service are basically the same price as what AF, LH and BA are charging, ditto for Finnair (who's short haul product is excellent!!!!) If SAS want to keep this cabin, they need to start offering Easyjet style prices in this cabin. It pisses customers off when they pay more to fly SAS from LHR, get there and get NOTHING at all. I am going suggest that cabin be kept for ultra cheap specials...with option on ALL fairs to upgrade to Economy Extra for a small fee... Say 10 or 15 euros. I've been on plenty of MD80s from LHR that end up having everybody crammed up the back while economy extra is empty. This is just stupid. It doesn't work now because the price difference is crazy. But that back cabin still isn't Easyjet style prices... hence people feel ripped off and not happy with SAS. LH and Austrian seem to have learned this lesson and reinstated some of their economy catering they previously took away. Either that or do away with this cabin entirely.

Also things like seat back advertising... god NO SAS, this is something Wrottenair does!!!!

Also a carrier like SAS needs to offer more when competing with the likes of AF for European traffic because its smaller. People need a good reason to switch carriers.

CPH needs more destinations in America, and needs to serve as a hub for American flights from all of Scandinavia, plus northern germany, poland, the baltic and even bits of Russia. There's a huge star alliance frequent flyer base here... From Berlin its just as easy to go via CPH as it is FRA.

So in a nut shell, they need:
1 - sort out the confusing european product. Either keep it and change its pricing structure to something more people will appreciate, either through real LCC style prices up the back, or a cheap upgrade for the front economy cabin, or do away with the no frills cabin entirely.

2 - Cheaper Staff. They may need to pay redundancy big time...super expensive but that status quo is doomed. Last i heard Finnair staff where 20% cheaper.

3 - More luxuries and Style in Long Haul business, and improvements in economy. Particular attn to business class though in order to become the northern area...from Scottland to St Petersburg's first preference for travel.

4 - Restructure Long Haul hubs at CPH and ARN so their destinations serve the 'general direction' they're flying in...and increase it to a size where it can actually compete seriously for traffic from Non-Scandinavian European countries. If this is dones successfully they may be able to reduce their costs by up gaging to larger a/c.

So attn needs to be made to the fleet as well...but its not the first priority. Other measures should be able to yield results on the revenue side, plus on the non-aircraft expense side. I'm not sure the solutions are politically acceptable though.


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3306 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12968 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 3):
2 - Cheaper Staff. They may need to pay redundancy big time...super expensive but that status quo is doomed. Last i heard Finnair staff where 20% cheaper.

That one is nearly impossible as salaries are much higher in Scandinavia (especially Norway and Danmark). You can't pay peanuts and expect people to work for you. As all industries in Scandinavia, SAS has to pay higher salaries than their foreign competitors, simply due to the price levels here. Scandinavia = High costs


User currently offlineTeme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12861 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I do hope now that AY will buy the SK long haul division.  

[Edited 2008-05-16 02:08:32]


Flying high and low
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12848 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 4):
As all industries in Scandinavia, SAS has to pay higher salaries than their foreign competitors, simply due to the price levels here. Scandinavia = High costs

Yeah I know i've spent plenty of time In ARN and got loads of friends in GOT.
I'm not suggesting they pay peanuts either...but do you know SAS's FA's are the highest paid in the industry?

It costs way way way more to live in London then it does in GOT or ARN or CPH. There is a similar thing happening at QF. QF's exisiting long haul FA's earn more then BA...yet it costs more to work in London.

New hire QF long haul will be on a more competitive rate... they've paid redundancies so some of the older ones to reduce them in numbers as a % and this has helped. The situation they face is far harsher then SAS...because SAS is competing with German, and Finish and Dutch wages...and to a lesser extent British and French. Qantas competes with Thai, Singaporean (not all that different in fairness to SIA ) Malaysian (much cheaper) and even American wages (once again, to the surprise of some of our American friends, its nearly half...) yet they've found ways to succeed. I think everybody would agree that QF's long haul product, in all classes, leaves SK's for dead. What that means is more people...including people based in places like Hong Kong and Singapore, chose to pay extra to fly QF, particularly up the front. In a nutshell... Qantas is forced to offer a premium product because it can't compete on just price alone. SAS is in an extremely similar situation. SAS's home market of Scandinavia is even about the same size as Qantas' home market of Australia. (meaning its got a similar 'natural' frequent flyer base for business class to be had on long haul etc).

Seriously, if SAS introduced something (of course it needs Stockholm's best designers to jazz it up) like NZ and Virgin's fully flat product, I think they could easy win back all the finnair customers, and gain a whole stack from places like Manchester, Hamburg, Berlin heading both to the Americas and Asia. But right now, those people haven't really got a good reason to fly SAS other then the fact they're probably members of miles and more. I'm sure Lufthansa and Swiss must just love the fact that SAS does a bad job of serving these customers, as does Finnair. It's Swedish Industry that's filling that crap finnair business class...but the price is right and its a sleeper seat and it doesn't involve back tracking to LHR or CDG which are too far away (unlike FRA and AMS... close enough to be competitive)
and KLM? They're doing amazingly well out of Scandinavia. But the dutch management style is confrontational...the Swedish management style is about Consensus. Meaning...despite being unpopular, the dutch have addressed the cost issues... the Swedish haven't because it will create political problems.


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12805 times:



Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
New EU regulations make it difficult to upphold the way the company has been run to this date and that is why the 3 different national parts of SAS and also the international part gets their independant airtravel approval.

May I suggest the EU take notice that their directives are to be followed? May I suggest other airlines (looking South) be advised that they have to comply too????

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
he Swedish management style is about Consensus. Meaning...despite being unpopular, the dutch have addressed the cost issues... the Swedish haven't because it will create political problems.

Consensus can work, provided everyone is willing to work together and give up something. Perhaps SAS will find a way to use both? Obviously, if consensus can create a workable solution where all are accepting of the outcome, it is the way to go. But if not, the Company Directors are responsible to shareholders and OTHER employees to make sure the company doesn't dissolve out from under them.

I think the idea of "airline w/in airline" would makes sense, as posted above. Some destinations/flights could be "snow" only (the super cheap no service, esp short routes), and longer routes/long haul could offer a mix. But that is just my musing.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3306 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12788 times:

Lufthansa, I agree with you on most terms, but you have to accept that SAS would have to pay their employees more than their competitors, and SAS biggest problem are not their salaries....it's their product.

btw Oslo is consistently ranked among the most expensive cities to live in looking at the total costs


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12772 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 4):
salaries are much higher in Scandinavia

Just to put salaries into some perspective: A 20 year old who starts to work at McDonald's in Norway will get approximately 25 dollars per hour in salary on weekdays.

How much do McDonald's employees make in other Western countries?



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12754 times:

No one minds too much paying higher fares if you get a higher level of service.

I've only flown SAS about 4x and I wasn't impressed with the service. I got a high cost fare with virtually no service. The high fare also meant there were hardly any pax on all the planes.

Finnair are great on these intra-European routes. Good fares and great service.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12711 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 8):
ut you have to accept that SAS would have to pay their employees more than their competitors, and SAS biggest problem are not their salaries....it's their product.

btw Oslo is consistently ranked among the most expensive cities to live in looking at the total cost

True, so base all the staff in Stockholm! We know plenty of ppl in Norway drive across the boarder to go shopping because things are much cheaper in Sweden... so use the swedish alternative! Ahh yes, politics... a history of government ownership and the associated union issues coming with it... make it tough..nearly impossible. I hear you. But if you don't...you're not gonna have to worry because you wont' be around. And unlike Italy, nobody in the EU is gonna tolerate wealthy, yet small Scandinavia breaking the rules.

SAS will always have high wages... especially when compared to somewhere like Spain. But it doesn't need to be the highest in the industry, which is what it currently is. German wages aren't cheap. And nor is the cost of living in London.... and London usually comes in the top 3 most expensive cities in the world to live in, yet BA staff aren't earning SK wages. BA is also offering a product that's really attractive. Maybe if the product improved, SK would have an easier time raising that additional money and the higher labor costs wouldn't be as bigger problem.

But SK really must start acting as a carrier for the whole of northern Europe..not just Scandinavia. Think about the Amazing amount of industry, both in Scandinavia and in Northern Germany. That alone is hell of a lot of business traffic. But they're not stupid and they don't wanna pay top dollar for a lackluster product.

Look I know nobody wants their wages cut. In fact it almost always breeds such resentment, you may be better off getting rid of the staff and starting again. If you want evidence of that...just look at our American Friends... and how their attitudes have turned to shit in terms of service. But the alternative may be that SAS goes under..and that finnair steps in and steals even more traffic, or LH purchases the remains and everybody ends up working on those conditions anyway.

It's not like SAS are paying the minimum wages in Scandinavia. They are paying a significant premium. Not to mention how much are some charter operations and LCC in the region paying? Anybody have an stats particularly on Flynordic staff pay rates? What I'd suggest is they role it in over time as Qantas have done. Remember, Thai labor costs just 20% of what Australian labor costs. I don't think Dutch labor, which is competitions so well is 1/5 of the price of Swedish labor.

I believe very strongly though the first thing that needs to be addressed is the European product mess. Then Long Haul business...then everything else. Because right now SAS is actively pissing off its customers....and destroying the brand name. If they destroy the brand it will be very hard for them ever to get a premium again.

But biggest single issue right now is, SAS doesn't give the customer a good reason to select them as first preference. This is what they've got to focus on. And you can either go price...or product.... they've failed at both.


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12675 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 10):
No one minds too much paying higher fares if you get a higher level of service.



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 11):
just look at our American Friends... and how their attitudes have turned to shit in terms of service.

Both these are saddly true. Americans want a 1st class ticket for less than 200 USD R/T transcontinental.

And American carriers do have somewhat less than stellar service, and it shows.

I hope SAS looks at our errors, and does not repeat them.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12674 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
20 year old who starts to work at McDonald's in Norway will get approximately 25 dollars per hour in salary on weekdays.

I agree and see your point. But also consider this. In Australia, that same 20 year old at McDonalds, if employed on a casual basis, will earn about $17 per hour. Significantly less. But in Singapore... that same worker is on about $4.00 per hour. That's over 4 times the wage in Australia. I bet Norwegian McDonald's workers aren't earning 4 times what German McDonalds workers are?

But we need to compare apples with apples. How much less, as a % do fly Nordic staff earn? And how much lower is the aircraft to staff ratio? (and yes SAS will need to be higher for sure in order to do long haul etc... no arguments there) It would just be interesting to see, a new carrier set up for efficiency and compare it to the situation that created SAS due to years of basically government protection.


User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12602 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
It costs way way way more to live in London then it does in GOT or ARN or CPH

Both Oslo and Copenhagen are more expensive to live in than London.

http://www.economist.com/markets/ran.../displaystory.cfm?story_id=8908470

Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
Just to put salaries into some perspective: A 20 year old who starts to work at McDonald's in Norway will get approximately 25 dollars per hour in salary on weekdays.

The salary for a new employee 18 year s or older is 21,61 $ / hour

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12528 times:



Quoting Larshjort (Reply 14):
The salary for a new employee 18 year s or older is 21,61 $ / hour

fair enough, I have a swedish bias...i usually only go to Sweden.


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12517 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 11):
True, so base all the staff in Stockholm! We know plenty of ppl in Norway drive across the boarder to go shopping because things are much cheaper in Sweden...

Everything isn't cheaper in Sweden. Taxes are higher. Swedish employers have to pay around 31 percent in social fees, while Norwegian employers pay between 0-14 percent, depending on where in Norway the employee lives. So, an employee in Stockholm with a salary of 100,000 will actually cost you 131,000, while an employee in Oslo with the same salary will cost you 114,000.

Also, if all staff were based in Stockholm, imagine the cost of hundreds of pilots and cabin attendants deadheading to Norway every day, the hotel costs, the increased food costs, etc. SAS would almost have to set up a separate airline just to transport their own workers to and from the flights in Norway!

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 14):
The salary for a new employee 18 year s or older is 21,61 $ / hour

Is that in Denmark?

According to the Norwegian web page of McDonald's: "For medarbeidere i alderen 18-20 år varierer lønnen fra kr. 103,68-122,16 per time (avhengig av opparbeidet ansiennitet) + tillegg for f.eks. kvelds- og helgearbeid. Medarbeidere over 20 år har en begynnerlønn på kr. 122,16 per time + tillegg. For medarbeidere under 18 år varierer lønnen fra kr. 78,68-88,68 per time (avhengig av alder) + tillegg."

Using an exchange rate of 5 kroner to one dollar, we get beginners' salaries of:
Under 18 years: 15.74 dollars
18-20 years: 20.74 dollars
Above 20 years: 24.43 dollars



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12445 times:

Cool, but does anybody know what flynordic pays compared to SAS.

For that matter, Norwegian and SAS too. That will give us some idea of the premium
SAS is paying.


User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12371 times:

I don't know what premiums they are forced to pay their workers who live in Norway or Sweden, or how complicated they find it to manage their workforce due to their business model. I'm sure it's not easy. What I do know however is the mess they've made out of the Spanair selling process, which is continuously making massive losses that harm directly SAS's economic performance. Yet it's still on sale, nearly a year since they announced they were going to sell it. And up to date almost nothing is known about Spanair's future. That might give you a bit of perspective to what a disaster SAS's management board is in. To be honest, I doubt SAS managers are thinking right now about improving their product, when they can't even manage to sell one of their subsidiaries successfully.

User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12357 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 16):
Is that in Denmark?

Yes it is in Denmark and it was an old number  ashamed  the right number is 21,93$ if youre 18+ years and 13,34$ if you are under 18 years old.

http://www.mcdonalds.dk/cms/res/mcdo...s/98602/86855/l%C3%B8n2008-pdf.pdf

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12213 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12242 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Isn't this what we all wanted anyways? Split the four into separate companies to avoid having SAS Norge subsidize SAS Sverige and Danmark?  Smile


911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineXaraB From Norway, joined Aug 2007, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11341 times:

As KaiGywer points out, SAS Norway has been the only division in SAS delivering consistent profits over the few last years, even if they've had to compete with the ever more powerful Norwegian. My personal opinion, though, is that their service level is as bad as Norwegian's, but at a somewhat higher price. Between cities where these two companies' frequencies are almost equal, the preferred airline choice should be a no-brainer IMO, especially since it is illegal to obtain FF (EuroBonus) points on domestic Norwegian flights.

About the comparison to Finnair's long-haul product (including connecting flights):
I flew Y-class OSL-HKG-OSL in March with Finnair for the first time, on E170/190s and MD11s. Yes, they do not have personal IFE, but I was genuinely impressed with their service attitude, punctuality and professionality. The cabin crew were young, happy and very helpful, contrary to what I'm used to see in Norway, where particularly SAS' cabin crew often consists of middle aged people with a questionable service attitude. There are exceptions to this, though, as I have had some of my most memorable and pleasurable flights with SAS in Norway in the past few years. Norwegian's cabin crew tend to be younger than SAS', often Swedish, and, while professional, have a hard time appearing service-minded when advertising their company-chosen no-frills product.

I therefore agree that if SAS can do something about their staff situation and pricing structure, they would appear a much more attractive airline. They're still the only Scandinavian airline that offers connecting flights to the rest of the world (mostly through Star Alliance) on one itinerary, which is a huge advantage over e.g. Norwegian.



An open mind is not an empty one
User currently offlineBAStew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11195 times:

SAS is one of my favourite airlines to fly, and I love to non-rev on them.

But......

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 3):
Next, SAS's European concept needs change. It's Swedish domestic operations work far better then its European ones...particularly with the basic breakfasts included.
Particularly the 2 different economy cabins. The price difference is too much for a start. The cheaper prices that give you the LCC style service are basically the same price as what AF, LH and BA are charging, ditto for Finnair (who's short haul product is excellent!!!!) If SAS want to keep this cabin, they need to start offering Easyjet style prices in this cabin. It pisses customers off when they pay more to fly SAS from LHR, get there and get NOTHING at all. I am going suggest that cabin be kept for ultra cheap specials...with option on ALL fairs to upgrade to Economy Extra for a small fee... Say 10 or 15 euros. I've been on plenty of MD80s from LHR that end up having everybody crammed up the back while economy extra is empty. This is just stupid. It doesn't work now because the price difference is crazy. But that back cabin still isn't Easyjet style prices... hence people feel ripped off and not happy with SAS. LH and Austrian seem to have learned this lesson and reinstated some of their economy catering they previously took away. Either that or do away with this cabin entirely.

Totally Agree.  thumbsup 

When SK/AU etc launched the 'paid for' economy service there was still a difference between them and the Ryanairs and Easyjets - mainly that in the event of cancellation/disruption SK and AU would look after you, re-route you, provide you with overnight accommodation if necessary and possibly compensate you.

If Ryanair cancelled they would refund your 5euros you paid for your fare and without explanation or assistance tell you to find your own way back to the UK from Trieste or some other obscure place. There was no liability on their part whatsoever to get you home if they refunded the fare offered to you.

Then the EU changed the law. All european airlines had a set of rules to operate to in the event of delays/cancellations etc. Laws governing what a passenger was to receive in the event of a delay or cancellation were clear and applied to all, no matter which airline or how much your fare. It was far reaching and was clear in your rights to refreshments, entitlement to compensation, entitlement to re-routing etc.

The lines between a true LCC and a 'full service carrier' (with paid for on-board service) evaporated.

I really believe thats why some european airlines like Austrian reverted to some sort of service on board and airlines like BA out of LGW shelved plans to introduce buy-on-board. The competitive advantage of being looked after better by the full service airlines in the event of things going wrong was lost.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12213 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11020 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting BAStew (Reply 22):
I love to non-rev on them.

I did that on Sunday. I wanted to fly WF from SVG to TRF, but the flight filled up so I hopped on SK SVG-OSL instead. Comfortable seats and all, but it does feel cheap that you don't get anything for free.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1238 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10303 times:

When I flew Finnair from Asia to ARN the other month I had a great crew, but they were not young by any means. Unless you consider a 50 year old young that is...

SAS problems are not about salaries they are about attitudes.
Scandinavia competes better than most regions around the world despite some of the highest salary costs. SAS seems to be the exception to the rule when it comes to Scandinavia.
I believe SAS still suffers from mentally not adjusting to an unregulated market. Peoples minds haven't changed since those days and until they fully face the problem and once and for all change the way the organisation works they will not be able to turn themselves into a company that produces sustainable profits on a continuous basis.
Like most of the monopolies I would guess that they also suffer from to much management and not enough productivity.

Then they have another big problem. Their biggest potential market is ARN and their hub is CPH. To me CPH is a much nicer airport than ARN and its a lot easier to make connections at CPH compared to ARN due to the different layout of the airports. CPH is also better positioned for most flights ie everything going south, and if they were to tap into Northern Germany they would have a larger market that ARN could ever find.
However have anyone witnessed any Northern Germans on SK? I haven't.
Does SK compete with LH for Northern German business? My guess is that they don't and that the amount of German companies that have SK as their first choice carrier is very, very limited indeed. Almost making the point of Northern Germany as a potential market mute.

But by choosing CPH as a hub they alienate their most obvious potential customer pool.
Sweden and its corporate strengths can really only be compared to Switzerland minus the banking industry in Europe. Its one of the worlds most successful exporting nations and these worldwide companies generally have their HQ:s in the Stockholm region. And its where the HQ:s are that matters because that's where the travel managers sit and they make the deals with the airlines.
How can you persuade these companies to use CPH?
I don't know but its obvious that SK haven't been able to do it. Finnair on the other hand are expanding a lot to Asia and taking SK business from right under their noses. I guess this is happening on a smaller scale in Norway as well, at least according to what I have read here.

Finnair are smart they use bilingual flightattendents and staff at Helsinki airport so a Swede can walk around speaking Swedish with everyone and feeling almost like home when they fly Finnair. My understanding is that there is a Swedish speaking minority in Finland and that every Finn can choose to learn Swedish if they want to in school. My Swedish colleagues love Helsinki Airport, they compare it to Northern Sweden, which according to them is everything North of ARN, for them Helsinki is easy, tidy and like being in any Swedish city.
When they fly SK that's not often the case. My Swedish colleagues generally speaks English with Danish staff in CPH because they don't understand Danish. According to them the people from the southern Swedish provinces understand Danish but them being from Gothenburg finds it very difficult.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
25 BHXFAOTIPYYC : Apart from the flight perhaps?
26 Someone83 : Not necessarily true. Don't underestimate Copenhagen when it comes to their potential. SAS need to focus on both CPH and ARN as they both are the two
27 KaiGywer : Well, that's beside the point And I paid the same as I would an equal distance on any other airline (ZED ticket)
28 Okay : The crew can ask for flights they want to do every month, and the flights are assigned by seniority. Most propably you have flown to a destination pr
29 TylerDurden : Of course they do--primarily on short haul. That's why LCC's are proliferating worldwide.
30 JoFMO : SK does not approach the norther German market well enough. First of all they are usually one of the most expensive options for long haul. Even more
31 TheSonntag : I know of a friend of mine who was paid 5,70 EUR at Mc Donalds in Germany. Quite a scandal, but not really seldom. Normal wages would be around 10 EU
32 F28 : I think its interesting that SAS using CPH as a hub and they NEVER ! make any money. Even though scandinavian economy surge ahead ? AY taps in to ARN
33 Larshjort : Whats wrong flying Norwegian /Lars
34 F28 : Opps my bad ! Nothing really. Gone do it in a few weeks. Actually its a Flynordic flight with a famous Norweigan on the tail.
35 AA767400 : In the United States it is pretty low. Lower than any country mentioned except for Singapore. If you pay cheap, you are going to get cheap service. A
36 Andaman : As mentioned above, Swedish is the 2nd official language in Finland. All Finns HAVE to learn the basics of Swedish at school and all official informa
37 Flybynight : SK's unions need to be brought under control. I can't help but draw a parallel to the US auto industry. Part of the reason why GM and Ford are loosing
38 OkAY : On which fact you base this? okAY
39 Davescj : At one point, perhaps now some years back it was cancelled, DL flew to Helsinki via Oslo. I have to say, CO has managed to make some pretty interesti
40 OkAY : Was it not via ARN? DL used to fly to HEL, that is true anyway. And after they stopped the route with their own metal AY and DL had an interesting ag
41 Krje1980 : Just one example why SAS is losing business: My wife and I recently had a vacation in Madrid. Flying back to Norway, I was traveling on LH via FRA to
42 Davescj : At least when I few the route (1991, and again 1992 or 1993), it was via Oslo. Possible changed routing later? As it happened, the first time I went,
43 Hywel : I literally could not believe it when I recently flew LHR-GOT-LHR with SK - I bought a coffee, cookie and sandwich and it cost something like SEK100
44 Krje1980 : I might also add that the fare on my LH flights was CHEAPER than my wife's SAS flights.
45 Scalebuilder : DL served OSL direcly from JFK in the early 90s. Did not last long, but I had the chance to fly with them a few times. TWA served OSL also a few year
46 Sukhoi : So this is how the CPH hub works getting leisure passengers travelling back home to meet the family in the Baltic States, Russia & Poland!? No wonder
47 Scalebuilder : I sometimes wonder if SAS know who their passengers really are. When I fly out of Chicago, and being Scandinavian and all, it is hard to say who is S
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