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Japanese Private Sector Calls For More HND Slots  
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Private sector members of a top Japanese economic forum have called for the effective doubling of slots at Tokyo's Haneda Airport, once the new runway opens in two years' time. This will push slots up to around 600,000 a year and ultimately, the forum wants the two Tokyo airports - HND and NRT - to have around 1m slots a year.

The forum also wants to see the new slots at HND made available to other SE Asian countries as well as India.

All well and good ... but how much "clout" and influence do these members have; are they even a majority on the economic forum? What they are calling for makes sense, but is it something that the MoT can torpedo or even a majority on the panel (who are presumably all senior civil servants?)

http://www.japantoday.com/category/b...g-slots-likely-to-double-at-haneda

Current plans call for the number of slots once the new runway opened to be around 407,000, so the increase to 600,000 is "a big ask".

Here's some info on the HND expansion project:

http://www.mlit.go.jp/koku/english/03_domestic/haneda.html

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

Depends who is on the Panel and the Forum. Someone has to say something and Japan has to do something. If it wants to stay competitive with Seoul and the two rising larger hubs of PVG and PEK, then it will have to figure out a way to meet demand, expand capacity and lower fees. Otherwise Japan will not have the means to remain the "Gateway to Asia".


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8034 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2775 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
Otherwise Japan will not have the means to remain the "Gateway to Asia".

Unlikely given the larger scheme of things. Since Nippon Ginko and the Ministry of Finance are so hell-bent on ruining the economy long-term, I don't expect this country to remain a significant player as any kind of air travel gateway until they get serious about promoting better competition and more direct foreign investment.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

Everybody so negative. Japan no perfect place. Just be thankful the runway is going to be built while we are alive. Building a runway in bay in places like the UK and US would take decades.

While immediate doubling of slots at HND sounds a little far fetched, a 50% increase is huge and once Tokyo ATC is accustomed to handling parallel traffic, increased traffic, and not to mention more airspace taken up by Yokota, the additional slots will come.


User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1792 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

I don't think everyone is not negative. Looking at how anti-democratic the current government which has lasted for 60 years is, it leads me to think that nothing will change.

However, what is really suprising that the city of Yokohama who is chucking in large sums of money for the current runway is saying that if the airport and the Ministry of Transportation doesn't do something to increase int'l flights beyond the current agreement, they are not going to pay a single penny for it.

Wonder how this will turn out in two years time.

But why not bother to divide the two airports (HND & NRT) more to a LHR and LGW type of system? Use HND as the LHR and increase premium flights and use the remaining NRT like LGW and lower landing fares and don't dream of some super expansion project.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2596 times:



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 4):
However, what is really suprising that the city of Yokohama who is chucking in large sums of money for the current runway is saying that if the airport and the Ministry of Transportation doesn't do something to increase int'l flights beyond the current agreement, they are not going to pay a single penny for it.

That's probably a more effective way of encouraging a rethink; let's hope it works. I guess "the elephant in the room" is that people don't want a huge amount of flights to leave from Narita and transfer to Haneda. Even if they just restrict it to short haul flights, such as HKG, ICN, PVG and others, international passengers may still choose to fly via these cities just to get access to HND and avoid the long journey from NRT to Tokyo.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12905 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2562 times:
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Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
If it wants to stay competitive with Seoul and the two rising larger hubs of PVG and PEK, then it will have to figure out a way to meet demand, expand capacity and lower fees. Otherwise Japan will not have the means to remain the "Gateway to Asia".

Japan is sincerely likely to lose that anyway. e.g., with India flights at HND and US flights at NRT... you lose the connectivity. Now today, I'm not aware of any new Korea/India bilaterals that would open up ICN to the sub-continent. But if that bilateral is ever signed...

Of course, if I had my way, LHR would be building its 5th runway and NRT wouldn't have stopped at 3 runways.  Wink

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
The forum also wants to see the new slots at HND made available to other SE Asian countries as well as India.

Sounds reasonable. But up to what size of airframe? Last I looked, HND doesn't allow 4 engine airframes anymore.  Sad

So would SQ like slots to HND?  yes  With A380's?  yes  But they would be happy enough with 77W's.

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):

Current plans call for the number of slots once the new runway opened to be around 407,000, so the increase to 600,000 is "a big ask".

One has to start negotiations with a wide gap. Asking for 600,000 might allow 450,000 slots.  spin 

With the 3rd runway, ICN is finally gaining enough 'economy of scale' to compete with the Tokyo airports. By the time ICN finally has a large 'toehold,' it will be too late to keep it from being the gateway to Asia. Or will that be HKG?  Wink Either way, the mindset has gone from 'transfer in Tokyo' to transfer at the other hubs. I think there is a great opportunity here for economic growth in Japan. But that would take a tremendous number of open slots at the Tokyo airports. Not something I expect to see in the next decade.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2519 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 6):
Last I looked, HND doesn't allow 4 engine airframes anymore.

You should have looked really hard. NH, JL & KE would throw a fit if that happened now. In ten years, probably not. Plus where would NH & JL operate 20 744Ds?


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 6):
Last I looked, HND doesn't allow 4 engine airframes anymore

I think you were thinking of Osaka - Itami, which has banned four engined aircraft.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 6):
One has to start negotiations with a wide gap. Asking for 600,000 might allow 450,000 slots.

Fair point.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 6):
With the 3rd runway, ICN is finally gaining enough 'economy of scale' to compete with the Tokyo airports. By the time ICN finally has a large 'toehold,' it will be too late to keep it from being the gateway to Asia. Or will that be HKG?

And don't forget Chinese airports too; PVG has its third runway and I think PEK has three as well, and a pretty darn big terminal too. I think PEK might easily - and erroneously - be overlooked, because it offers a much quicker way to Europe and is within range of smaller long range twins such as the A330-200 (which many Chinese carriers now operate) and 767; whether that advantage will disappear once the 787 comes remains to be seen, but it may even become greater, because the economics of the 787 may allow access to new cities not previously served directly from Asia (chief among them, Dublin!) and PEK would be their hub to Asia. I'm also assuming, without firm knowledge, that Chinese airports are considerably less costly to operate to than Japanese airports (on the simplistic basis that NO airports are more expensive to serve than NRT/KIX - not sure how HND ranks).

However, I guess my final question would be: does the Japanese govt really care that much if other airports like ICN, HKG etc overtake Tokyo; is being THE leading Asian hub a real priority for them? If so, it should certainly encourage them to look at expanding HND access, but somehow I doubt if it is.

[Edited 2008-05-19 10:54:35]

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12905 posts, RR: 100
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2406 times:
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Quoting Kaitak (Reply 8):
I think you were thinking of Osaka - Itami, which has banned four engined aircraft.

oops, my bad.

Ok, since I was wrong, let me ask, is HND A380 ready?  hyper 
For if flights to India are allowed, I could see those routes easily filling an A380.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 8):
And don't forget Chinese airports too;

The Chinese have been very slow to open up slots. Hence why I have discounted them. They would have to open up far more slots to/from Asia, India, and the US to create a major hub at PVG or PEK (the more likely of the two, thanks to that HUGE terminal you mentioned). Its possible infrastructure/route wise. But politically? I haven't seen the open skies needed to allow a hub to grow quickly.

Hence why I mention HKG and ICN. Now ICN is currently limited in its rights to India... but if that were to open up  scratchchin  (ok, pure speculation, but hey, this is a.net..)  spin 

But now take another scenario. Let's say HND is opened up to 500,000 flights per year (I just do not see 600,000 happening, but as I noted before, its a good start of negotiations.) That 200,000 flights added or 500 flights/day. Let's assume 300/day are domestic Japan or China (near Asia, if you will, with some to Korea in that number). That still leaves open quite a few flights open for India and maybe even connections to the US. A mere 8 to 12 flights per day to India would make HND a *major* international hub. Add to that 50 flights/day to the US... and the hub would be a fortress hub almost overnight. The remaining ~150 flights/day? I'd let the market fill those up. SIN? BKK? CGK? KUL? All possibilities. The greatest growth, currently, in air travel is Asia to Asia (yea... a very non-descriptive term..), so it would be a shame to have Tokyo vote itself out of that growth.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 8):
However, I guess my final question would be: does the Japanese govt really care that much if other airports like ICN, HKG etc overtake Tokyo; is being THE leading Asian hub a real priority for them? If so, it should certainly encourage them to look at expanding HND access, but somehow I doubt if it is.

Good point. But its a bit short sighted to give up a major business advantage.  Sad

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2384 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 9):
let me ask, is HND A380 ready?

Airside, no problems.
Gate space is another matter. It would hog up three gates at any of the gates at T1 & T2.
I am sure the new international terminal will be built with some gates being A380 compatible, but not sure other than KE would be flying into HND in the near future.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2305 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 10):
Airside, no problems.
Gate space is another matter. It would hog up three gates at any of the gates at T1 & T2.
I am sure the new international terminal will be built with some gates being A380 compatible, but not sure other than KE would be flying into HND in the near future.

But isn't there a plan to build a new international terminal, near where the old terminals used to be?

Interesting article in today's Sydney Morning Herald on the Haneda issue:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/japa...ghts/2008/05/21/1211182851146.html

Sounds quite positive, in that the Japanese government is open to the possibility of going beyond the originally planned short haul flights (limited to within the length of Japan, from HND) and offering flights to Europe; these proposals are expected to be refined and released by the Autumn.

I can see these slots going for a VERY high price; effectively, there'll be very few slots, so they'll be limited to those airlines that can afford them. I can see HND being a destination for all-J class flights, along the lines of Privatair's A319CJs and SIA's A340-500s.


User currently offlineTeme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2282 times:
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Quoting Kaitak (Reply 11):
Sounds quite positive, in that the Japanese government is open to the possibility of going beyond the originally planned short haul flights (limited to within the length of Japan, from HND) and offering flights to Europe; these proposals are expected to be refined and released by the Autumn.

Man I would like to see AY move from NRT to HND  thumbsup 
But I think that the major airliners will have the first slots ...  Sad



Flying high and low
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2250 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 11):
But isn't there a plan to build a new international terminal, near where the old terminals used to be?

Correct. The foundation work is already underway.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2238 times:

I can see this only being beneficial to the country and Tokyo.

Some airlines, especially Asian ones, could reduce their ops at NRT allowing for reallocation of slots to new entries and airlines prefer the day-time ops.

I also wonder if HND will put regulations on aircraft size for that time of arrival/departure.

I remember reading someplace that United was trying to push the government to allow long-haul international flights to HND. Seems that OneWorld and Star would be the biggest beneficiaries of the move. Skyteam has no Japanese domestic partner so they really don't win much now but if HND is opened up then maybe one of the other Japanese carriers could join Skyteam. But then again would NW/DL/KL/AF or other long-haul skyteam member move to HND.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineSYfan100 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2233 times:

Would it be possible for let's say if a Airline like Us Airways wanted to fly to Tokyo that the government would allow then to fly to HND instead of NRT?
I know all United States Airlines fly to NRT now because they are required.
But what if someone like Us Airways came along saying we would like to fly to Tokyo from Philadelphia or from Phoenix or both?
It's new service to two cities hubs and if I was reading it right it looks like NRT has had a traffic jam up for a while so wouldn't it make since to reopen HND to some United States Airlines that wanted to fly to Tokyo that aren't offering service to Tokyo now?
Just throwing the idea out for some thinking with how Philadelphia and Phoenix are two large cities in the United States. I don't know how much traffic those routes would be on those flights, but they are two business cities that for sure could have some traffic going nonstop for the business person and just the person who wanted to see the city and the country.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2198 times:



Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 15):
I know all United States Airlines fly to NRT now because they are required.

They aren't required to fly to NRT, it's just that HND is closed out to scheduled int'l routes with the exception of GMP & SHA.
Yes, I believe a NRT-PHL/PHX route would work with all the Star connections at each end. However, equipment issues at US is the biggest hurdle. Even the A332 would be stretched for NRT-PHX. Out of PHL, they would need to stop at ANC. If they get some A343s, then no problem.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 14):
I also wonder if HND will put regulations on aircraft size for that time of arrival/departure.

Why? HND is foremost a domestic airport for the Tokyo region. There are a handful of domestic routes that have only one or two flights a day. Addition of a RJ flight or two to these destinations would more than improve the accessibility to these places. Granted it's not the most effective use of a slot but so be it.
Also the city of Hiroshima is pushing for HND-HIW with RJs. There could be anywhere from a few to even upwards of a dozen flights a day, as it is one of the biggest domestic sectors with heavy business demand.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

More on the HND slot situation:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/editorial/20080522TDY04305.htm

I'm assuming that once the new runway is open, the rules restricting times of operation at HND (i.e. international flights only allowed late at night or early morning) will be relaxed.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2113 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 17):
I'm assuming that once the new runway is open, the rules restricting times of operation at HND (i.e. international flights only allowed late at night or early morning) will be relaxed.

Correct. The current int'l terminal is like a temporary shack with two gates. They will have a full blown international terminal in 2010. It won't be huge like those at NRT & KIX but HND will be a fully 24 hour airport, so why let a terminal sit idle.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2085 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 18):


Any good "images" of what the new facility will look like?

I love my airport (NGO) but wonder if this goes through NH or JL could add service to/from NGO or NKM in the form of a CRJ sized aircraft. Maybe 2x daily or something simple.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
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