ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6626 posts, RR: 19 Posted (5 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5667 times:
So, it's been a month and a half now since the RDU flight moved from London-Gatwick to London-Heathrow...
Still flown on a 777 daily. Now arrives 2 hours early and depart 2 hours later.
Has the loads and yields increased or has the move not affected it too much. I know during the summer, the flights are usually strong anyway, but are they strong because we see lots of connecting traffic THROUGH RDU or connecting traffic AT London-Heathrow or has O&D increased..
Does anyone have any information they can provide to me?
Thanks a bunch for whatever info anyone can provide...
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10193 posts, RR: 62 Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 5613 times:
From what I've heard, the flight's fortunes have indeed improved - by what amount I'm not sure - since the move to Heathrow.
Apparently, the major change has come in the form of loads, primarily driven by the much higher connection opportunities over Heathrow - tons of new places to connect to with a single stop.
Loads have - again, from what I've heard - been particularly strong in F and J, and a bit weaker in Y (though they have always been a bit on the weaker side in Y). Not sure of any yield performances/changes on the route, although, since the plane is subsidized to the point of virtually guaranteed profit, anyway, that can only bode well for the flight.
SlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5549 times:
The flight has always made money i think the move to LHR was to make the first and business class passengers happier and have more connection options. This flight makes money and exists for the premium cabins not for Y
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6780 posts, RR: 25 Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5507 times:
Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 2): This flight makes money and exists for the premium cabins not for Y
The flight exists because its subsidized. It wouldnt be there if certain local businesses in the RDU area didnt guarentee a break even on it. AA would get money on it even if the plane went out empty.
That being said, the move to LHR will certainly help boost the numbers for the flight. The connection bank helps, not only that but business travelers prefer LHR to LGW.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
Rdukid From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5496 times:
I flew RDU-LHR last Sunday and LHR-RDU on Thursday and one interesting thing I noticed was not the amount of folks connecting in London off of AA174 because I assume many people do that anyway but the amount connecting in RDU off of AA173. My bag was one of the last bags to come out in customs and as I stood and watched all the bags go around I would say that about half of the baggage tags said MIA, DFW, JAX, or DCA and some of the bags that were going to Miami and Dallas were connecting again after that. Also I overheard many conversations on the plane and people were talking about their connections.
On a side note how many flight attendants does AA base in RDU and do the RDU based flight attendants only work the London flight? I almost went into shock when we landed and they announced the crew was based Raleigh. However, I believe it was announced that the flight deck crews on both flights were based in Miami...not Dallas.
On another side note...I am 99.9% sure there are no plans for American to expand in RDU once the new terminal opens but has anybody heard anything or rumors about expanding? I am still a firm believer that American could make RDU-LAX work even though I would much rather fly it on Delta. Also, I think it would be nice to see some AA 757's back in Raleigh. And since it sounds like they are making plans for a nice new customs and immigrations hall are there any international expansions on the horizon? I think that another transatlantic flight is wishful thinking right now but with all the international companies in the triangle it could maybe happen. Could a 757 make it from RDU to Paris, Amsterdam or Frankfurt?
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6780 posts, RR: 25 Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5461 times:
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): I am still a firm believer that American could make RDU-LAX
I would really like to see this flight happen. AA has loyal followings on both ends of the flight. Not to mention that RDU could provide another connector to smaller markets on the East Coast, LGA, DCA, and LHR. If anyone could make this flight work, its AA.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10193 posts, RR: 62 Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5418 times:
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): On a side note how many flight attendants does AA base in RDU and do the RDU based flight attendants only work the London flight?
There are about 80-90 flight attendants based in Raleigh, and yes, they are there solely for the London flight. All domestic mainline flying in and out of Raleigh is handled by the respective domestic bases (Chicago, Dallas and Miami).
As you mentioned though, yes, the pilots for the Raleigh-London flight are from other bases.
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): On another side note...I am 99.9% sure there are no plans for American to expand in RDU once the new terminal opens but has anybody heard anything or rumors about expanding? I am still a firm believer that American could make RDU-LAX work even though I would much rather fly it on Delta.
Yeah, I don't really see much coming in the way of expansion - from the AA or Eagle standpoint. Both are in extreme contraction mode at the moment. I also agree that a daily 737 to LAX could work, but doubt we'll see it anytime soon.
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): Also, I think it would be nice to see some AA 757's back in Raleigh.
To where, though?
Miami does well as-is, and Dallas and Chicago do fine with their present MD80s, and LaGuardia is losing their single daily MD80 this fall.
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): And since it sounds like they are making plans for a nice new customs and immigrations hall are there any international expansions on the horizon?
No - the only over-water destination that would even be conceivable to me would be San Juan, and even that has about 0 chance of happening anytime soon.
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): I think that another transatlantic flight is wishful thinking right now but with all the international companies in the triangle it could maybe happen. Could a 757 make it from RDU to Paris, Amsterdam or Frankfurt?
AA's 757s are not properly configured for flights to Europe, and either way, AA won't be flying from Raleigh to anyplace else in Europe besides London anytime soon.
BHXDTW From Eritrea, joined Feb 2005, 1086 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5114 times:
I guess some of the pax up front would be kinda happy that the flight moved to RDU ..
Isnt Glaxo SmithKline one of the firms who subsidise the flight and their offices in the UK are right under short finals for LHR... Bit easier to get to than LGW !
Cornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 56 Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5061 times:
Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 7): guess some of the pax up front would be kinda happy that the flight moved to RDU ..
Isnt Glaxo SmithKline one of the firms who subsidise the flight and their offices in the UK are right under short finals for LHR... Bit easier to get to than LGW !
Actually that's their global head office in Brentford, not to mention their main research labs in Greenford and another big plant in Maidenhead. Yep its easy to see why the company that does most to make that flight exist would be happier with a LHR flight rather than LGW.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6874 posts, RR: 29 Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4960 times:
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): I flew RDU-LHR last Sunday and LHR-RDU on Thursday and one interesting thing I noticed was not the amount of folks connecting in London off of AA174 because I assume many people do that anyway but the amount connecting in RDU off of AA173. My bag was one of the last bags to come out in customs and as I stood and watched all the bags go around I would say that about half of the baggage tags said MIA, DFW, JAX, or DCA and some of the bags that were going to Miami and Dallas were connecting again after that. Also I overheard many conversations on the plane and people were talking about their connections.
This has been fairly typical in Y for the RDU-LGW/LHR flights. F & J are more likely to fill up with local RDU traffic (and some award tickets since they are virtually impossible to get in F/J via ORD, MIA, & JFK. Y catchs a lot of spill traffic from MIA year-round & DFW during the summer. AA does route some of the lower yield traffic over RDU since this generally has less organic demand than any of the other LGW/LHR flights.
Quoting Commavia (Reply 6): Yeah, I don't really see much coming in the way of expansion - from the AA or Eagle standpoint. Both are in extreme contraction mode at the moment. I also agree that a daily 737 to LAX could work, but doubt we'll see it anytime soon
Unfortunetely that is the situation now as they are in hunger-down mode, worse than they have even been during the recent "good" period. If they didn't start up RDU-LAX before, they certainly won't now under the current conditions.
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2274 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4714 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 6): There are about 80-90 flight attendants based in Raleigh
seriously?
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): And since it sounds like they are making plans for a nice new customs and immigrations hall are there any international expansions on the horizon?
lets see.............I really don't see it happening...
AA has had an RDU flight attendant base going back to when the base opened, and the base has remained open ever since, albeit now the base exists solely to support the daily London flight - all of the Raleigh-based flight attendants fly only Raleigh-London, overnight, then fly back London-Raleigh.
It's no different than AA's Seattle base, which was open from 1991 to 2002, during which time AA operated Seattle-Tokyo flights. The FA base in Seattle existed solely for that flight: crews flew Seattle-Tokyo, overnighted, then flew back Tokyo-Seattle.
Rdukid From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4619 times:
Does anyone happen to know how these flight attendants got to be based in Raleigh? Did they volunteer to be based at RDU to just fly that flight back and forth?
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6626 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4600 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 6): I also agree that a daily 737 to LAX could work, but doubt we'll see it anytime soon.
In that case, so would a daily 738 to SFO, SAN, and SEA in addition to LAX.. all would allow for one-stop transfers.. All could leave RDU between 4-5 and arrive in their perspective areas by 6-8 local time.. but that ain't gonna happen either.. wishful thinking.. but ain't gonna happen..
But as of right now, from what I can tell.. no one can really tell how the flight is doing except that it's flying daily and hasn't been cut.. I guess that's better
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 12): Does anyone happen to know how these flight attendants got to be based in Raleigh? Did they volunteer to be based at RDU to just fly that flight back and forth?
Aren't these F/A pretty high on the seniority scale for the RDU flight?
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6874 posts, RR: 29 Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4367 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13): In that case, so would a daily 738 to SFO, SAN, and SEA in addition to LAX.. all would allow for one-stop transfers.. All could leave RDU between 4-5 and arrive in their perspective areas by 6-8 local time.. but that ain't gonna happen either.. wishful thinking.. but ain't gonna happen..
Another issue with SFO/SAN/SEA/LAX - RDU is aircraft utilization. Essentially each roundtrip eats up essentially an entire day's worth of flying time, particularly if they want to schedule daytime flights. Nothing but RDU-LAX could even think of being flown with a redeye.
CasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4346 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14): The difference being that RDU-LAX can support itself on O&D with minimum connections. RDU-SEA/SAN can't; RDU-SFO is borderline.
In the next few years, there are going to be many changes that will affect these situatiions.
1. The population of the CSA of Raleigh/Durham/Cary is as of 2007 (1,635,974). In 2000 it was 1,314,589.
The CSA is averaging growth at around between 43000 to-48000 people a year.
2. As far as Seattle goes, there are many high tech companies in RTP and more and more keep starting up. There are more connections with Seattle being built every day. The Global Park in Kinston getting the 787 nose cone contract will only raise that number more.
3. For San Diego. There are also more and more connections to San Diego, not the least of which is Qualcomm's growing operation in Cary. Although not a monster yet, more growth here could tip the scales.
4. For SFO just the population growth alone will make this flight a reality within 2-3 years on United.
All in all, by 2010, I envision RDU getting flights to SAN, Settle, SFO. High oil and consolidation of the Airlines may make these routes inevitable.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6874 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4267 times:
I know, I know all about the growth in RDU. I'm down there every month and it mindboogling, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.
Remember that AA doesn't even serve SAN & SEA nonstop from MIA. Let alone they would think about doing it from RDU.
As you said, SFO is a potential for United, but the limiting factor is the cost of flying trans-cons these days. If there is a revenue premium that can justify the service, yes, otherwise its connections via other hubs.
One nonstop flight a day in a market isn't going to catch all the O&D in a city pair. Some will always fly someone else or need to connect in order to fly at certain times.
SEA & SAN aren't happening in the forseeable future.
Rdukid From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4231 times:
This is a very random thought I had but I think the one airline that would be the best suited for flying RDU-LAX/SEA/SFO would be Alaska. They have frequent flier and codeshare programs with American and Delta which are two of the more dominant airlines at RDU and they of course also have partnerships with Continental and Northwest as well.
B752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4205 times:
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 18): This is a very random thought I had but I think the one airline that would be the best suited for flying RDU-LAX/SEA/SFO would be Alaska. They have frequent flier and codeshare programs with American and Delta which are two of the more dominant airlines at RDU and they of course also have partnerships with Continental and Northwest as well.
You must be joking right? AS would never start LAX, SFO and SEA flights out of RDU. I believe the only non SEA transcon they run are LAX-DCA, BOS-PDX and MCO-PDX (which is being cut this fall) so I doubt they would begin 3 transcon flights from RDU.
Gsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4180 times:
Quoting Rdukid (Reply 4): half of the baggage tags said MIA, DFW, JAX, or DCA and some of the bags that were going to Miami and Dallas were connecting again after that. Also I overheard many conversations on the plane and people were talking about their connections.
I am not sure what is going on with AA DFW/LHR. Currently it is one 777 and one 763 (changing to a 777 on 01 July). Try getting a F or J seat to LHR. Usually very little choice. 4 of us are going over in July are going to either have to fly through JFK or RDU.
Rdukid From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4122 times:
Quoting B752OS (Reply 19):
You must be joking right? AS would never start LAX, SFO and SEA flights out of RDU. I believe the only non SEA transcon they run are LAX-DCA, BOS-PDX and MCO-PDX (which is being cut this fall) so I doubt they would begin 3 transcon flights from RDU.
I could see how it would make since but then it makes no since at all. It was just an idea and I know there is really not much chance of that happening but should AS decide to expand more in the east maybe in a few years or so it would be kind of cool to see.
David_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7145 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3957 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3): That being said, the move to LHR will certainly help boost the numbers for the flight. The connection bank helps, not only that but business travelers prefer LHR to LGW.
The CAA's provisional April statistics show:
2007: LGW = 10622 = 177 average pax per sector if 60 sectors operated
2008: LHR = 11262 = 187 average pax per sector if 60 secors operated
Doesn't breakdown the make-up of the passengers though.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6780 posts, RR: 25 Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3905 times:
Quoting CasInterest (Reply 16): All in all, by 2010, I envision RDU getting flights to SAN, Settle, SFO. High oil and consolidation of the Airlines may make these routes inevitable.
I highly doubt it. SAN and SEA are definately not going to happen. The market is simply not big enough. DL recently cut RDU-LAX. I think AA could make that flight work, but thats about it. UA wont fly SFO-RDU. SFO exists mostly to connect people to Asia. RDU-Asia is tiny and UA can just route RDU passengers through ORD or IAD to Asia. AS isnt coming to RDU. RDU-SAN is almost laughable.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
25 MAH4546: SAN and SEA have close to 0% chance of happening non-stop from RDU anytime in the next few years. AA doesn't even fly those routes from MIA (at least
26 ConcordeBoy: RDU-AMS/CDG are doable, but seriously pushing it. FRA is for all practical purposes, out of the question. Thing is, who'd op this? Not AA, who doesn'
27 ERJ170: OpenSkies I say.. but doubtful.. none of these are gonna happen anytime soon. This is just not the market for increased growth..
28 MAH4546: Raleigh could never support the low-density configuration of Open Skies aircraft. Open Skies will work in Boston, Washington, and New York; and assum
29 QQflyboy: 87 to be exact (as of 2/12/08 anyway, the last date the base headcount was updated). And for a short time they covered Reno Air's SEA-ANC route after
30 RDUDDJI: I don't see any of those happening with the cost of fuel so high, and nearly all carriers contracting or at least cutting expansion. We aren't going
32 ThegreatRDU: RDU-SAN only has a chance with WN RDU-SEA is pushing it RDU-LAX could work via a AA 738 Growth out of RDU will lie in the hands of WN
33 Delta767: As for the RDU-based AA crews...can they fly other AA routes from other bases? For frequenst travelers on this route, it would seem they would almost
34 Commavia: They are not contractually prohibited from flying other sequences within the U.S. or anywhere else (as are, for example, the South America crews, whi
35 Ramerinianair: Here's the hard number: As of right now, the flight is sold at 81% in coach over the next 7 days. That's pretty darn good! Oversold in Y on a couple d
36 ConcordeBoy: pretty good based on what? 1) it's coach 2) what yield are those seats 3) who cares anyway, as said-- it's just coach... how's the F, C, and cargo lo
37 ERJ170: And I would have to say.. who cares how F, C, and cargo are doing since the flight is subsidizes and paid for. F and C can be completely empty. So wh
38 ThegreatRDU: man I hope so how do you know that?
39 ConcordeBoy: ...um, the airline perhaps? great, all profit then.
40 B752OS: Given that the RDU-LHR flight is subsidized and without this, the flight wouldn't happen, what makes people think that 2 addition flight to Europe wi
41 Commavia: I think the point being made was that, because F and J are subsidized, and cargo benefits from the research- and corporate-related business at either
42 QQflyboy: My understanding is the agreement is a revenue guarantee. It's not a given that RDU-LHR is subsidized. My understanding is AA can seek funds from the
43 Jfk777: If it wasn't for the Revenue deal the flight wouldn't exist, RDU should thank its lucky stars it has a 777 to LHR. I can't think of any vity its size
44 MAH4546: Any RDU-Europe competition will dilute AA's incremental revenue on the flight that is made past the subsidy guarantees, likely to a substantial amount
45 Lexy: I agree 100% and think that thinking the RDU market could support more European markets just based on O&D is stupid. RDU is really no different than
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