JetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 1 Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15130 times:
I seem to have found some odd things today on the net, but there was a guy who had dreamed about this crash many times and went to aa in ord and told them and it was related to the Faa. What is the deal here i googled it and sure enough it was reported,. Im Usually a skeptic of these things, but is anyone aware of this??
In 1979, David Booth had a series of recurring nightmares of a plane crashing- and on May 25, 1979, his premonitions came true. A DC-10 took off from Chicago's O'Hare Airport, flew a half-mile, then turned on it's side and slammed into the ground, exploding on impact. The 272 people on board died. Booth's dreams started on May 16th, and after they had continued for seven nights, having seen in those dreams the name of the airline, he went and told people in authority at the airport. They made notes of what he'd told them, but claimed they couldn't just ground a whole airline, so the planes went on as usual- and David Booth's nightmares came true.
Dc10s2hnl From New Zealand, joined Aug 2006, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14788 times:
I read this same thing before somewhere... eerie stuff.
Among a bunch of literary figures on the flight was Judith Wax, a contributor to Playboy and author. In her book "Starting in the Middle" published the same year of the crash, she states her fear of flying... which happened to be on page 191.
I also saw something similar a few years ago on tv about a passenger on Continental 603 who kept on having recurring dreams about being on a fiery airplane and after escaping the plane ran to a nearby fence to get away, only to see people on the other side watching the inferno who were incapable of helping the survivors on the other side on account of the fence being huge with razor-wire. These dreams freaked the lady out enough that she changed her seat to the left-hand side of the plane on her upcoming trip to HNL; the side which in her dreams had the less flame and smoke. Needless to say, her DC10 overran the runway at LAX, turned into an blazing inferno and became a very deja vu incident... right down to the people on the other side of the chain-length fence.
Spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3968 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14546 times:
None of this is particularly strange.
How many major accidents have there been over the years in English-speaking countries? Probably 1,000 or more. Now, let's imagine how many people have dreams about plane crashes. I know I do sometimes. Occasionally these recur over several nights - usually when either I'm about to fly or someone I care about is. So this is not really uncommon.
I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that there are probably dozens of people in any given area that have recurring dreams about airline accidents just before a real accident occurs - because there are dozens of people in any given area having recurring dreams about airline accidents at all other times too. Even dreaming about a particular airline is really not even that much of a coincidence. I'm sure a lot of other people have had dreams about Qantas or United or British Airways, but their dreams and subsequent frantic, nutty calls to the airline go unreported by the media because they didn't happen to have their dreams just before a real accident happened on those airlines.
It's probably more surprising if this guy was the only one who thinks he dreamed about an accident before it happened. I doubt that's the case - I'm sure there are others who just never got picked up by the media. But the reality is these people are just dreaming about random imagined accidents; these are not premonitions. Their mind is simply expressing a fear. What would they say if they had these dreams and nothing happened? Had their premonition somehow been avoided? No, they just had a dream.
As for the "191" thing, I'm not a mathematician but there is a mathematical formula that will give you the probability of any random number coming up two or three times in a given series. I'd be surprised if the probability of having two or three accidents with the same flight number, given the total number of accidents over the years, wasn't close to 100%. Especially when considering that flight numbers aren't really random.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
3holeflyer From United States of America, joined May 2008, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 14386 times:
After being just a reader here, I finally had to join. Recently I was discussing this accident with a friend of mine who was in Chicago at the time of the Fl. 191 accident, and was somewhat familiar with it. As I understand it, the plane rolled through 90 degrees and fell because the slats on the damaged side retracted due to a loss of hydraulic line pressure, and the other side then had more lift, rotating the plane. Aside from losing the engine, the crew probably didn't even realize the slat problem.
Our question is, by somehow being made aware of the slat issue and the developing roll, (in the middle of the lost engine crisis), is there any way that the pilots could have dealt with the roll and then continued to fly the plane with one engine? How late could this have been dealt with? Would there have been a better chance if the plane had reached a higher altitude? Has this ever been run & studied on a simulator? Perhaps the situation was hopeless.
Halophila From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 652 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 14350 times:
In mid-2001 I was intrigued with air crashes. I don't know why, but perhaps driven by my own fear of flying. I searched through every site I possibly could about air disasters.
In early September 2001, I had a dream about a burnt out building with the tail of what looked like a 747 with UA's livery on it in the rubble.
On September 11, 2001, for the first time ever (and I mean seriously, the first time), something woke me up from deep sleep in my LA apartment at 4:57AM.
Any connection? Probably not. As a scientist I can say that I don't believe there to be any correlation. Of millions of people who dream and millions of people who are aircraft enthusiasts, it's likely even with low odds that someone will dream of accidents 'before they happen'. How many of us e.g. 'saw' the Challenger disaster before it happened in 1986? (I'm sure a lot of people imagined what would happen).
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13876 times:
The DC-10 crash was ultimately caused by an usafe engine change method. McDonnell Douglas could not prevent American or other airlines from doing this, only recommend that they not.
In doing an engine change, the engine must be separated from the pylon, necessitating more than 100 connections. American theorized that removing the engine AND the pylon would need less than half the number of disconnects. The problem was that any vibration or problem could lead to fatigue cracks in the assembly. At one point in servicing, N110AA (the DC-10 that crashed) was having an engine removed when a forklist ran out of gas.
Cracks developed, and on May 25, 1979, N110AA lost its left engine, and with it some of the leading edge slats, leading to an asymmetrical thrust condition. Afterwards, when these kinds of cracks where discovered, they were found on other DC-10's of American, United, and Continental, leading to the temporary grounding of ALL DC-10's.
Unfortunately, the number one engine also powers all the cockpit instruments, and since the crew could not physically see the damage, they assumed they had merely lost power in the number one engine. Procedures at the time dictated a reduced climb-out speed of only 159 knots. This however was below stall speed, and the plane crashed.
Tragically, had they realized what had happened and maintained a higher speed, the plane would not have lost control. Simulator tests on DC-10 pilots later showed that in every case where they had the same situation, every single pilot crashed...but when the pilots were told to maintain a 10+ knot higher speed, every single pilot maintained control.
I have also heard the urban legend - and I cannot verify it is true - but Lindsay Wagner (The Bionic Woman) is rumored to have had a ticket for flight #191, and at the last minute had a premonition and refused to board the plane.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
The anniversary of this tragedy is next week. It's hard to believe it's been 29 years. I remember hearing about someone having a dream about the crash. Wasn't there something on TV about it? My memory's a bit fuzzy on this.
As for the dreams, and other odd happenings that are often associated with plane crashes (Eastern 401, for example), I keep an open mind towards them. I've seen a lot of strange things in this world. There could be things going on that we don't understand.
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7804 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13655 times:
Quoting 3holeflyer (Reply 13): Our question is, by somehow being made aware of the slat issue and the developing roll, (in the middle of the lost engine crisis), is there any way that the pilots could have dealt with the roll and then continued to fly the plane with one engine? How late could this have been dealt with? Would there have been a better chance if the plane had reached a higher altitude? Has this ever been run & studied on a simulator?
First the plane had TWO working engines and one left lying alongside the runway.
Pilots were in simulators within hours of the crash, engineers and pilots figured out that the loss of the engine in such a manner had severed the lines, the damage to the left wing and the probable impact of following the book. (Not just DC-10 simulators, other tri-jets and most other jet simulators started looking at that possibility).
This was one of the few cases in aviation history when other airline pilots, the manufacturer and FAA knew correctly almost exactly what the FDR readings would show before the FDR was recovered.
As noted above, keeping the speed 10 KIAS higher and not deploying the slats - this was a recoverable accident. That is not to fault the flight crew - if my memory is right, there was one obscure secondary instrument which might have indicated the hydraulic problem.
After this crash DC-10 and most other aircraft were changed to provide pilots more accurate information in such an accident.
I'm aware of a couple other accidents where an engine physically separated on takeoff from a wing mount. All the engines went over the top of the wing - something about the AAL flight no one anticipated if an engine actually fell off the aircraft. In other cruise, descent and climb in-flight physical losses of an engine - the engine has fallen below the wing.
In all of these other engine separations - the aircraft made a safe landing. The US Airways B737 which lost an engine on takeoff from Chicago also has similar slat/ leading edge damage as the AA DC-10 - but landed safely.
While there were a lot of differences due to aircraft type, mymemory is that the pilot of the US aircraft did mention that the AA crash had an impact on his training, and one reason he felt they landed safely was the lessons learned from the DC-10.
BP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13600 times:
May 25, 1979 was an awful, yet life changing day in my life. On the day, not only did I lose a family member heading out to the American Booksellers Association convention in Los Angeles, but in an ironic twist of fate, my father ended up with a new job because of a deceased passenger on AA191. Although it was not an aviation related job, at 10 years old, I became interested in aviation because of that crash - it changed my life too moved from a working class neighborhood in New Jersey to an upper class neighborhood on Chicago's North Shore.
Years later, my father mentioned to me that he was on a UA flight talking with a retired FAA inspector and that inspector said about (1) hour before the AA flight on 25 May 1979, a weather front moved through Chicago and the temperature changed by some 20 degrees F and the runway buckled because of the temperature shift thus creating a bump big enough to pull off the engine when the main wheels hit it. I, to this day, do not know if that FAA person was honest or simply blowing smoke towards my father. Regardless, the loss of life, no matter the circumstances, is tragic and sad.
Having then worked with UA in the later 1980's and seeing first hand the scars from UA232 in Sioux City; airplane crashes are just, well, not someplace anyone would want to be. Seeing the walking wounded board a chartered UA 727 the next morning from Sioux City - some just walking away with scrapes and bruises to seeing the tears on the arriving family members faces after learning the tragic news of their loved ones. This is a great business, but when tragedy strikes, I often find myself wondering what we are in aviation for in the first place.
Accidents happen and as we continue to learn from them, hopefully, the future will not hold any more AA191 or any other type of tragic aviation events. Fly safe.
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
Ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5779 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13532 times:
I was outside for P.E. the afternoon of the crash and saw the smoke from the resulting fire. My high school was about 15 miles away from the crash site, so that tells you how intense the fire was from a plane fueled for a flight of nearly 2000 miles.
My next door neighbor was a Cook County Sheriff's deputy, so he was sent out to the crash site to secure the area and assist the various agencies on site. He was a verteran of the Korean War and had been in combat on the front lines. That didn't prepare him for what he saw at the site. He couldn't believe how little of the aircraft was intact, nor what the crash and fire did to human bodies.
Stratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1701 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13474 times:
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17): Unfortunately, the number one engine also powers all the cockpit instruments, and since the crew could not physically see the damage, they assumed they had merely lost power in the number one engine. Procedures at the time dictated a reduced climb-out speed of only 159 knots. This however was below stall speed, and the plane crashed.
To be more exact the #1 eng powers the #1 electrical bus which when it left the a/c most of the capt's instruments were inop. The F/O was the pilot flying his instruments were ok. Problem was when AA took delivery of this DC-10 it went with the one stick shaker option which happened to be on the f/o's side. When the #1 engine fell off the left wing slats started to retract so the left wing started to stall but only after they bled off some speed which like you said was in their training to trade off speed for more altitude for clearing any obstacles but in this case it only added to their problems and with having one one stick shaker it never activated because the right wing was flying and the wing without stall warning protection was stalling inducing the roll. After that accident it was mandated that all aircraft be outfitted with dual stick shakers.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 6031 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13259 times:
Quoting SFOQQAA (Reply 10): Now that's a bit creepy. I didn't know that. I wonder if other airlines have left out flight 191 from their schedules.
US Airways still uses 191 for GEG-PHX-SAN, usually on a 733 or an A319.
Quoting 3holeflyer (Reply 13): As I understand it, the plane rolled through 90 degrees and fell because the slats on the damaged side retracted due to a loss of hydraulic line pressure, and the other side then had more lift, rotating the plane
What made it unrecoverable is that the left wing actually stalled, due to the slats on that side retracting due do the hydraulic leak and raising the stall speed.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
: Unless I have missed another incident, it was a Piedmont Airlines 737-200 that had an engine separate from the wing during takeoff in ORD. Of course
: This is a widely distributed picture seconds after #1 fell off: BP1
27 Tan Flyr
: Was this the person from Cincinnati? IIRC, in the ensuing months it came to light that several folks with the ability to have "visions" were noted in
: Oh, I though PI was flying as a US subsidary at the time.
: You make an excellent point..... I have often wondered about my plane crash dreams....of all of them (about 2 a month) only TWO have been relatively
: EXCELLENT clarification!! When one considers that (a) crash photographs were virtually unheard of at that time, and (b) this was the SECOND gruesome
: We were in PPG when AA 191 went down. As a result, the DC-10, was grounded and CO couldn't fly to PPG. Had to wait another week before PA routed a 747
: In the famous photo a few posts up, that DC-10 is no longer "flying". Instead it is falling down at the same rate as it is moving forward. Note the hy
: This is the NBC news report from that day:
: I promise I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but that's not quite correct. Especially the last part.
: My mother took that route on that type of AA while she was pregnant with me. If that had occurred a month or so earlier then I might not be around tod
: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR79-17.pdf Go to page "61 of 103" (listed as page 57 on the document itself): In MacArthur Job's "Air Dis
: And I am not trying to be argumentative, honest. It's my opinion formed long ago via physics and fluid dynamics. It is actually how wings work. This
: There was an episode of NBC's 1980's "Amazing Stories" sort of like this. "You Gotta Believe Me" starring Charles Durning. A man has a dream/vision of
: The reason for the reduction in engine inoperative climb speed in the DC10, is the flight director commands a climb profile at V2. The F/O was followi
: My dream was many years after UA 93 but in the dream the 757 crashed into a forest.
: I dreamt of the Southern Airways D9S crash just outside of Atlanta, GA USA in Dallas, GA USA before it happened. I told my girlfriend, at the time, ab
: Truer words were never said, BP1. I wouldn't call any of these "dreams", they all sound like scary-ass nightmares to me. I think all of us connected
: I seem to recall reading that the Comair flight was Comair 191 for operationally but was numbered DL5191 for marketing purposes. There are quite a fe