Imkeww From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (14 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1699 times:
Assuming this rate started in the beginning of 2001, that would mean approximately 26 new airplanes a year (52 weeks in a year/2). Over the period of 5 years from 2001 to 2006, that equates to about 130 airplanes.
Over this relatively lengthy period, that does not equate to much. For an airline the size of NW, with 400+ so planes it its fleet, this is not an impressive new aircraft delivery rate at all.
In fact, I would not be surprised to see jetblue end up with more than 130 planes by 2006, considering by the end of 2002 they will have around 50 A320s!
This is just another misleading use of "How to Lie With Statistics". Invariably, airlines like NW toot their own horns by impressing the average mind with numbers.
NWA747-400: Since you have a particular knack for bashing United, ["United will never do anything to improve service"], I assume you'll be shocked by that statement that, out of the top 7 airlines, United has the 3rd youngest fleet after CO and TW.
older planes are 58% of the fleet
Newer planes are 42% of the fleet
Older planes will be 215 (38% of the fleet)
Newer planes will be 350 (62% of the fleet)
More new airplanes are still being delivered.And a DC9/747-200 replacement. so the NW will be getting younger every year.
Having said that, I think it also to remember that fleet age is not the be all and end all of the airline. An airline such as NW has some of the best maintainence in the world and can run an airline with 18 year average better than most airlines with much younger fleets.
Imkeww From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1601 times:
You cannot throw in NWs 80 regional jet aircraft by 2005 into the mix. This is another 'statisticatory' smokescreen tactic, as these aircraft are operated by the regional subsidiaries and should not be counted.
No one else counts regional jet aircraft as part of mainline -- CO, DL, AA for instance don't count COEx, Comair/Asa, or AE jet fleets, respectively, as part of fleet age.
Having said THAT (according to your numbers), by 2004:
56% (270/485) a/c should be of the 'newer' and 'modern' variety.
44% should be of the 'dinosaur' jalopy variety.
These are more realistic representations.
Don't use fuzzy statistics to cloud the truth!
I do, however, agree that NW has top-notch maintenance to be able to keep these old birds in good condition. This may be why the mechanics are so mad-- they perhaps work the hardest of all, and their pay does not currently reflect this.
777gk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1641 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1575 times:
NWA 747-400 is correct. NW purchases the aircraft and leases them to Mesaba or Express I. In the eyes of the DOT, NTSB, and FAA, the aircraft are Northwest Airlines planes dba Mesaba/Express I dba Northwest Airlink/Jet Airlink. The new CRJ200s for Express I are ordered by Northwest Airlines, and if you look at the order book for Bombardier, it will say Northwest Airlines as the purchaser, not Express Airlines I.
Therefore, the fleet age should reflect the additions of these new aircraft, since they are owned by Northwest but operated under the Northwest Airlink banner. For Continental, cases can be made for the fact that our average fleet age should include the ERJ's, and there are cases that can be made that we shouldn't. Since COEX is 100% owned by Continental Airlines Inc., then maybe we should include them in the average. But since the order was financed and placed by Continental Express, maybe they shouldn't. But for collections of regional carriers, like Delta's Connection, TWA's TWE, and UA's Express, the numbers of the regional fleet should not be counted because the airlines are separate entities and are not completely owned by the carrier it operates under.
Imkeww From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1557 times:
Notice how I made a point of only including Comair/ASA DLConnection carriers, which ARE 100% owned by Delta. Alaska owns Horizon, yet they do not count Horizon into their fleet age. Same for AA and AE. Same for CO and COex. Same for DL and Comair/ASA. True, it depends on the situation, but NW is the only one who counts its regional arm as part of its fleet age among this group.
Singapore Airlines, through its SALE subsidiary, owns aircraft that it leases. Yet SALE aircraft are not counted in SQ fleet age. From a professional standpoint, an airline should only count the aircraft it operates itself as part of its fleet age. Because NW does not operate the RJs, rather --Mesaba/Express I--, counting the ARJs and CRJs is not a best practice. Also, even though an airline may not outright *own* some of its aircraft, those aircraft are tallied into the equation because the airline operates them.
RJs simply are not the same as mainline jets, anyway. The planes have a less capital/maintenance cost, less amenities, less weight. I would assume there are dramatically different FAA and FAR21, etc. regulations as well between RJs and "real" jets.
Dont' be too offended. I know NW DC-9s have been refurbished and feature the 'space age' interior that businessmen love, but physically the planes are jalopies. I've seen the 9-30 cockpits... wow, what a mess. Now, the planes aren't bad, but from a maintenance and image-conscious perspective, it is not a best practice to have older planes. This should be fairly obvious. Notice how the only other airlines to operate planes as old as NW's are 3rd world carriers in Latin America... Avensa, Aeropostal, etc.
Don't be offended: NW does have a very good mx program that takes care of these babies well, but hopefully you get the point.
MRDC-10MD-11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1522 times:
An article in the St. Paul Pioneer Press reports that Fronteir Airlines in Denver has never seen decompetitive stratagies as strong and forceful as NWA's moves. Northwest has to be one of the most corrupt airlines. I hope Sun Country is able to sustain their fight for competition and that the Federal Court Case with Sun Country vs. NWA after alligations of antitrust laws goes in Sun Coutry's favor.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6784 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1513 times:
While it's good to see NWA ordering new planes, their rate of delivery isn't any faster than most of the other majors...actually compared to some it's slower. For example here's what Delta's been receiving over the last 10 months:
(Note: this month was a little unusual as DL received planes that had been back logged because of the Boeing engineer's strike)
Total of 55 Aircraft in 10 months or roughly one aircraft every six days. Of course, DL has been aggressively retiring the 727-200 and the L1011 so the fleet hasn't grown as rapidly as you might expect.
HlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1499 times:
The Express 1 CRJ200 and the Mesaba ARJ 85 also actually fly in Northwest colors unlike the Mesaba s340 and the Express 1 340 which fly in their own Airlink colors respectively.
I did not know about the RJ200s, but I know that Northwest owns the RJ 85 and leases it out to Mesaba. Northwest uses the RJ 85 on former DC-9-10 routes.
Mesaba had talked about getting a 40 seat regional jet, it is unknown which one, but the president spoke about it in the Airways Interview.
I think the new Northwest CEO is really going to focus on renewing the fleet. By 2005, I can guarantee we will know the DC-9 and 742 replacement by then. Don't be surprised if they are all from the Airbus family.
A330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1463 times:
In response to IMK's comments about an airline using numbers to make statistics look better, what about AA and the "More Room Throughout Coach" campaign?
This is just an elaborate scheme to make their load factor go up due to their dismal performance. Now that they have fewer seats in their planes while carrying the same number of passengers, the load factor dramatically increases, driving the stock price up!
Alexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 1446 times:
Does a 330 have the range to do say Seattle-Osaka non-stop? Or Seattle-Amsterdam? Im looking at NW's recent order and it doesnt fix that the 330's wont add any capacity and the 747 they fly Seattle-Tokyo has got to be close to 20 years old. What will they do? Replace that with a 330 as well? I dont see enough 744's in the fleet to cover what they need?
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 45
Reply 24, posted (14 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 1444 times:
I also happen to harbor the belief that from a service standpoint, United is an abysmal airline.
They may have a young fleet, but how is the age of the fleet to be equated to how good your service is?
Legend Airlines pretty much blows that argument right out of the water.
Regarding the statistics, and how they can be used to paint a distorted or misleading picture-that is one of the oldest PR and propaganda tricks in the book. They use percentages.
To illustrate my point, let's say that a small town one year has 2 teenage suicides. The next year, for whatever reason, there are THREE suicides.
The press will turn around and scream about how "teenage suicide is up 50%!!!!!!!!!"
While not necessarily untrue, it's not exactly the profound message that it appears to be.
: Why is everyone making speed and amount of a/c being delievered an issue? The original post never made mention to "wow this is a otn of planes" or "no
: Thanks for the support guys. You are right, I was just stating a fact.
: I know that Northwest put off buying new jets in order to preserve capital after 1993, when it nearly went in to Chapter 11. However, it is about time
28 Super em
: Good luck to Northwest.I remember commercials that Twa used to run stating that they were getting new planes.(I forgot at what rate though.)Well look
: Once more... Some of the the facts are WRONG (fleet age). You cannot count the RJs as no other major airlines do, even if they outright own feeders. -
: Just wanted to note that there *IS* a difference between service and inflight amenities. Although the latter is often included in the former, service
: Northwest is going to have all newer planes before this decade is out. There is nothing wrong with buying conservatively. Why buy all new planes all a
: Think about it though, by the end of this decade the 747-400 will be old, 20+ years(Well Northwest's first batch since they are still being built). No