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DL 9805, 3 Minutes In The Air. Come On!  
User currently offlineJkj777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 398 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14245 times:

Come on now, this is just crazy......DL flight 9805 left JFK headed over to LGA to pick up the New York Mets and take them to Atlanta to get pounded by the Braves. We all know the problems with JFK and the wait times that are associated for afternoon flights (or really flights all day for that matter). Is the cost justifiable to have a 737-800 sit in the que for any amount of time only to take off, make a quick right turn and then a quick left turn to land at LGA? Could the Mets just not catch a bus over to JFK? Could DL have not flown the 738 in to LGA directly instead of shuttling it over? Just mind boggling and had to point that out.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9805

Also found this. Apparently a military/government charter to ANC

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FWK41

good ole waste of American taxpayers dollars

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGA330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14200 times:



Quoting Jkj777 (Thread starter):
Could DL have not flown the 738 in to LGA directly instead of shuttling it over?

How do you know if the plane that is available is actually this plane which have to land at JFK first (maybe to drop off pax) and then go to LGA?



China Eastern MU586 KLAX - SZPD with B-6055
User currently offlineCuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14033 times:

No plane drops off pax from JFK to LGA.

Rich people have it good, poor people can wait another minute, even though it could have been thousands of them delayed a minute.


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2614 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13889 times:

Ideally any charter flight should be an added section into the airport the charter is leaving from. I don't know the routing of this aircraft. It may have been an extra section into JFK or a charter flight into JFK. Sure from the airlines's and your percpective making the Mets drive to JFK instead of LGA makes complete sence. They are the one's paying for the charter and they want to leave from LGA. We and just about every other airline that does charter move aircraft like this all the time. Cleveland is a good example. Most of the baseball teams fly into and out of Burke. Those require reposition flights to get the aircraft into and out of there for the charter. These charters are a big money maker for airlines.

User currently offlineNW747-400 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 504 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13691 times:

This is the nature of the charter business. The customer pays a premium to fly out of the airport they choose, and thus pay a premium to the service provider that helps cover empty legs and repositions. If DL approached the Mets and said, "hey sorry, but you need to catch the bus and come to JFK for your flight," the Mets would flip the bird and find another operator willing to pick them up in LGA.

Our charter operations require lots of empty legs. We usually ferry an airplane to the team, fly them to where they need to go, ferry the airplane back to base to resume normal ops, then repeat the process a few days later when the team is ready to leave.

Also, the charter ops are frequently done with spare aircraft. DL do not keep any spares in LGA because it is not a hub, so in order to get a spare to LGA, don't you think it would be much more cost effective to bring a spare in from just up the road rather than bringing an empty airplane all the way from ATL?


User currently offlineBriGuyinHou From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13655 times:

The bigger question is why didn't Delta serve a meal on the 3 minute flight? If it was Continental you can bet your sweet bippie that a meal would have been served.  Smile


I've travelled the world and the seven seas. Everybody is looking for something.
User currently offlineRscaife1682 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13571 times:

If that route puzzles you look at some of the flight plans I have filed today

TEB-LGA
TEB-HPN
IAD-DCA
BDL-HPN
IAD-HEF
TEB-EWR

The joys of burning gas in the corporate aviation world  Smile

RYAN


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13525 times:



Quoting Jkj777 (Thread starter):

Why should they have to fly out of JFK? The team scheduled with Delta for a charter flight out of LGA to Atlanta. It is Delta's responsibility to fly them from Flushing to Atlanta. Apparently, the easiest and most feasible way to get them a 738 was from JFK. I can almost guarantee you that the a/c had flown a revenue flight before it was shuttled over so it wouldn't have been a total loss.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13498 times:



Quoting Jkj777 (Thread starter):
Also found this. Apparently a military/government charter to ANC

And how many other alternatives are there to provide logistics support for Shemya - PASY?

Do you know where that is located? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemya

An all cargo GLF2 charter is a cheap alternative to moving a C-17 or military B737 to Alaska for the flight.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10665 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13403 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 8):


Quoting Jkj777 (Thread starter):
Also found this. Apparently a military/government charter to ANC

And how many other alternatives are there to provide logistics support for Shemya - PASY?

Do you know where that is located? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemya

An all cargo GLF2 charter is a cheap alternative to moving a C-17 or military B737 to Alaska for the flight.

I know where it is. I was stationed there for a year in '68 with the USAF. Used to be SYA. Only commercial service was Reeve Aleutian and the occasional airliner that needed to make an unscheduled fuel stop on the way to Asia. USAF flights were 2 C-141's a week and one C-124.

I don't get the routing from Elmendorf to ANC. Same airport unless it was just repositioning on the ground.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13383 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 8):

I know the Navy has combi- C-20's (and some all cargo). It may have been a military owned a/c.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFalconBird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13357 times:

Sad but true. Doesn't seem to make much sense. I see Comair reposition aircraft from KCVG-KLEX-KCVG all the time. Flight time in a straight line is 10-12 minutes depending on departure/arrival runways. I've also seen commercial flights in the past that just didn't seem to make much sense, either.

Eastern Airlines use to have regular scheduled flights to/from KFLL-KMIA-KFLL. 6-8 minute flights each way depending on landing/departing runways. Silly.



Vector, Victor... Clearance, Clarence...Roger, over...under...done...
User currently offlineA340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1982 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13285 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):
I don't get the routing from Elmendorf to ANC. Same airport unless it was just repositioning on the ground.

EDF is not co-located with ANC. EDF is 7nm NE of ANC. Kulis ANG is there at ANC.

JSD



"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10665 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13269 times:

Date Type Origin Destination Departure Arrival Duration
19-May-2008 GLF2/W Elmendorf Afb (PAED) Anchorage Intl (PANC) 06:02PM YDT 06:14PM YDT 0:12
19-May-2008 GLF2/W Elmendorf Afb (PAED) Anchorage Intl (PANC) 05:45PM YDT 05:47PM YDT Scheduled
19-May-2008 GLF2/W Eareckson As (PASY) Elmendorf Afb (PAED) 01:30PM HADT 05:33PM YDT 3:03
19-May-2008 GLF2/W Eareckson As (PASY) Elmendorf Afb (PAED) 01:10PM HADT 05:13PM YDT Scheduled
19-May-2008 GLF2/W Elmendorf Afb (PAED) Eareckson As (PASY) 10:56AM YDT 03:00PM HADT 5:04


Looks to me like it went from PAED-PASY-PAED-PANC......the last leg just being a repositioning to ANC.

Shemya (renamed Eareckson) to Elmendorf is about 1000 miles as I recall. We were closer to Yokota, Japan than we were to ANC.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineJumboJet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13141 times:

Couldnt Delta just simply drive the plane up the Van Wycke to the Grand Central and then to LGA?

User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13141 times:



Quoting FalconBird (Reply 11):
Eastern Airlines use to have regular scheduled flights to/from KFLL-KMIA-KFLL. 6-8 minute flights each way depending on landing/departing runways. Silly.

I'm sure that those flights continued to or came from other cities. EA had a MX base in MIA and the MIA-FLL flights were repositioning flights for MX purposes. If you can pick up a paying passenger or two, why not?

UA used to have scheduled SFO-OAK flights for the same reason. Frequent fliers would fly that route just to run up their miles.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13142 times:



Quoting FalconBird (Reply 11):
I see Comair reposition aircraft from KCVG-KLEX-KCVG all the time. Flight time in a straight line is 10-12 minutes depending on departure/arrival runways. I've also seen commercial flights in the past that just didn't seem to make much sense, either.

That's not a repositioning flight, that's scheduled service and if people are willing to pay to get to the hub from Lexington, why not? Same thing with MCN-ATL and CSG-ATL. If the winds are right, you can get to Atlanta from CSG in all but 18 minutes wheels up to wheels down on the ATR...

Quoting FalconBird (Reply 11):
Eastern Airlines use to have regular scheduled flights to/from KFLL-KMIA-KFLL. 6-8 minute flights each way depending on landing/departing runways. Silly.

Would be a little silly today but both Eastern and Delta operated flights from MIA to other cities via FLL. It wasn't just MIA-FLL and back.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13057 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):

They have a few - but the trend for the past 7-8 years has been to contract out as much as possible rather than build an organic logistics capability.

Many view contracting out as more flexible and more cost efficient - allowing the military to be smaller in size with a higher percentage of active duty concentrated in combat specialities.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):

My visits were 1972-74 in USN EC-121's.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):
I don't get the routing from Elmendorf to ANC. Same airport unless it was just repositioning on the ground.

Elmendorf and Ted Stevens are about 7 miles apart - with Merrill and Lake Hood between them. Flightworks does not list a maintenance or support hub in Alaska on their web site - but if they need much service or support - Signature at PANC would be the most likely place, or Million Air.


User currently offlineMgold07 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13009 times:

The aircraft for the Mets was located in JFK, not LGA, and LGA is located next door to Shea Stadium. The aircraft had just arrived from scheduled service into JFK. Furthermore, post-9/11, teams cannot be bussed onto the ramp at JFK, but they can at LGA. Plus, most teams dis-like JFK as it is usually very busy and cumbersome.

Incidentally, the flight lasted 15 minutes, not 3 minutes. And the customer pays the cost for the ferry leg.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10665 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 12957 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 17):

Sorry, I guess I was thinking of when Elmendorf was annexed on to the city of Anchorage.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 48
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12844 times:



Quoting Jkj777 (Thread starter):
Is the cost justifiable to have a 737-800 sit in the que for any amount of time only to take off, make a quick right turn and then a quick left turn to land at LGA?

Obviously it was worth it to the Mets; and they're the ones paying the bill.

Quoting FalconBird (Reply 11):
I see Comair reposition aircraft from KCVG-KLEX-KCVG all the time. Flight time in a straight line is 10-12 minutes depending on departure/arrival runways. I've also seen commercial flights in the past that just didn't seem to make much sense, either.

CVG-LEX is a popular route for Comair as the vast majority of people connect in CVG. Just because a flight is short doesn't mean it is nonsensical.


User currently offlineSFOnative From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12749 times:



Quoting GA330 (Reply 1):
How do you know if the plane that is available is actually this plane which have to land at JFK first (maybe to drop off pax) and then go to LGA?



Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 2):
No plane drops off pax from JFK to LGA.

CuriousFlyer, you misunderstood what GA330 was saying. Regular scheduled service of course not. A chartered flight starting right after a regularly scheduled pax flight to JFK, possibly.


User currently online7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 746 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12504 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Why should the leave from JFK like others have said?
LGA is next door to Shea Stadium - where they leave from and where some park their cars?
It is unfortunate that they flight is so short - but DL isn't buying the fuel - the Mets are.
It's their perogative.


User currently offlineArcrftlvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12282 times:



Quoting Bohica (Reply 15):
UA used to have scheduled SFO-OAK flights for the same reason.

I never really understood that logic. UA also used to fly LAX-SNA and I believe they still fly LAX-ONT on an EMB-120. I know traffic in LA sucks, but this seems a bit excessive.  Smile


User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12085 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 16):
you can get to Atlanta from CSG in all but 18 minutes wheels up to wheels down on the ATR...

I flew PHL-ABE in 17 minutes. That was with a 25 knot headwind, slowed down for the turbulence! So far it's my record for the shortest trip. And that was after sitting in line for nearly an hour waiting to takeoff in PHL!

Quoting Arcrftlvr (Reply 23):
I never really understood that logic. UA also used to fly LAX-SNA

I've flown it once and basically what it does is allow those of us in OC or north SD county to deal with a MUCH smaller airport with FAR easier security. So it does make quite a bit of sense. I'd rather drive 10 mins to SNA and leave a little earlier than normal than drive 40-45 min to LAX and have to deal with... well, LAX.

Oh yah, did skywest stop doing the SNA-LAX flight? Becuase now that I can actually non-rev and jumpseat and all that, it would have made looking for a ride to the airport much easier when flying intl.



Go Trojans! Fight On!
25 Cschleic : You might also complain to the Mets about their ticket prices, as well, if they're chartering flights that require such short trips. Big business was
26 DUALRATED : [quote=Jkj777,reply=0]New York Mets and take them to Atlanta to get pounded by the Braves. [/quo HA HA ....I think you should look at the national lea
27 Post contains links FalconBird : ...and HQ's. Indeed a very popular route and has been since Comair's inception. Sorry, not trying to cause an argument but not only regular scheduled
28 Jkj777 : WOW, there is a big difference of 1 game separating the two teams. NYM 22-19, ATL 22-21....... Either way, it is just wasteful spending. That is the
29 Expatmatt : If I choose to take a "scenic" route in my car to get to my destination and waste gas in my car, it's my decision. Yes some might say it's wasteful,
30 DiscoverCSG : Now there's a picture! But wouldn't the plane burn more fuel taxiing through the congested Van Wyck than it would flying above it? I don't think the
31 DelawareUSA : OK, DL can save money by having a $60,000,000 737-800 sitting at each airport waiting for a charter, have a crew in each, etc., or spend $600 on 200 g
32 N839MH : Here in DFW, Delta has flown a revenue flight from SLC or ATL to DFW, then ferry the flight over to Love Field (DAL) to pickup the Anaheim Ducks when
33 Post contains links Jhooper : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CKS208 Kalitta does JFK-EWR on a regular basis, in a 747! I guess it's worth it to them.
34 Max550 : Enterprise, the rental car company, uses "we'll pick you up" as their slogan. Think of how many times a day they "waste" money "repositioning" cars so
35 Viscount724 : I flew on an EA A300 once MIA-FLL-JFK sometime in the 1980s. It was almost empty on the MIA-FLL sector.
36 FalconBird : Not surprised. They use to do things like that. Was the flight full out of FLL?
37 JKJ777 : I just see one flight here.........
38 YWG747 : Money talks simple as that. If the mets wanted someone from LAX to pick them up and fly them to Atlanta who cares. The mets are paying for it
39 Viscount724 : No more than half full, but in those days average load factors were much lower than today.
40 FalconBird : True, true. Seems to me they were around 45%-46% break even. What are load factors today?
41 HPAEAA : AA flies planes from DFW to AFW quite often, just another short haul empty route...
42 Jkj777 : Not too sure of the nature of this comment but LAX-ATL is 1947 miles......JFK-LGA is 11 miles; clearly there is a difference here (no matter who is p
43 Lowrider : Tough. They will have to cope. Delta is in the business of flying people from where they are to where they want to go. Often time you will hear the r
44 Jhooper : I only dug up one example--trust me, it's done very frequently.
45 JAGflyer : Delta 9805 contact Kennedy departure, correction, Kennedy Arrival, correction, Kennedy tower.
46 Post contains links Jkj777 : "DL 9805, wind 220 at 10, cleared for takeoff runway 31R, cleared to land at laguardia runway 22, no need to contact departure as they will not respo
47 GA330 : Thank you for clearing that up for me SFOnative. That was what i meant.
48 GA330 : Flight Finder Results Ident Status Departure Time Arrival Time Operator Aircraft EGF828 Arrived Tue 08:19AM EDT Tue 08:23AM EDT American Eagle, Inc. E
49 FlyASAGuy2005 : Well...with Delta you would still get 500 MQM .
50 RFields5421 : Yes, but AFW is a maintenance site for AA. The also dead head empty aircraft DFW-TUL.
51 FlyASAGuy2005 : I remember when Delta had facilities in TPA. Most of the time, they would try to make money on the trip down/up, but sometimes it would be flown empt
52 FalconBird : With fuel prices continuing to climb there may not be very many airlines do any of this.
53 SFOnative : Ok, so what did you mean then?
54 Lowrider : Delta did not lose any money on this. The Mets covered the cost of repositioning the flight.
55 FalconBird : I was referring to the entire airline business. With fuel prices being what they are and what they're forecast to be by the end of summer, it will be
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