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Boeing Says 787 On Track For June Power-on  
User currently offlineOykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2685 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11250 times:

According to ATWonline Boeing is on track for power on and might ramp up production earlier than first reported. Let us hope Shannahan can exceed expectation.

Quote:
Addressing a gathering of global media, Shanahan said Boeing is on track for power-on for the first aircraft next month. "Systems are complete in the wing and forward fuselage is only hours away, while aft body is almost done," he declared. The company expects the mid-body systems and wiring to be complete in June as well.



Quote:
Shanahan told ATWOnline that Boeing already is evaluating a ramp-up in 787 production that involves both an acceleration of production back to its original schedule and a possible further increase that would require additional investment. "I want to see demonstrated performance in the 787 production line before I commit" to that increase, he said. He said the number of open items from suppliers has fallen dramatically and aircraft No. 4's horizontal stabilizer arrived with only two open items. "We re close to activating the factory as it was designed to operate," he claimed.

Read more at http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=12751


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11181 times:

Upcoming 787 milestones

June 2008: Power turned on in the first 787.

Summer 2008: First interior installation.

Fourth quarter 2008: First flight.

Third quarter 2009: First 787-8 delivery.

End 2009: 25 787s delivered.

Early 2012: First 787-9 delivery.

Source: http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080520/NEWS01/817927964


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 30
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11136 times:

After all that's been said and done, I think I'll wait until they actually throw the switch before I get too excited. It's a lot like AA, (the booze one, not the airline...), 'One day at a time'. Good news, bad news...what a ride, eh...? Maybe they have their act together this time...dare we hope...?

Prepare ye, all who enter here, for a long, tedious bashfest.

[Edited 2008-05-20 00:57:56]


What the...?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11140 times:

I believe that Boeing is being as clear as they can be at this time. There are simply too many laws and regulations related to public companies for them to play with the truth - the SEC would be on them in a heart beat.

What I'm reading is that they have worked through the problems of travel work and they have a good idea of where they still need to improve to bring production back to the initial plans. They also have a good idea of the investments needed to ramp production past the original schedule and I would guess that they are now comparing those investments against the costs of not increasing the ramp.

Overall it's good news, bring the 787 out of the darkness Boeing has had to endure. As we saw in the 380 programs, heavy investments in engineering talent (and software upgrades) have moved that program into the light.

When the 787 flies a lot of grief will diminish and we'll be able to get excited about the program again. Might even be talking about a second production line in a year or so.  Smile


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2685 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11029 times:



Quoting ENU (Reply 1):
Upcoming 787 milestones

Thank you for this update of milestones. Lets hope they reach them in time, (or before)

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2):
Prepare ye, all who enter here, for a long, tedious bashfest.

Lets not go there. One reply has been deleted already so let us base our argument with facts or theories. Let's not make this an ugly thread but a good thread about the article and that Boeing is on track.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
What I'm reading is that they have worked through the problems of travel work and they have a good idea of where they still need to improve to bring production back to the initial plans. They also have a good idea of the investments needed to ramp production past the original schedule and I would guess that they are now comparing those investments against the costs of not increasing the ramp.

This is really interesting. That they have almost no travel work on LN4 is great. Anyone know when LN4 will enter final assembly? Would have been great if someone posted images from Royal S. King from the final assembly into this thread. Not sure how it is done. He have taken some great pictures.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
When the 787 flies a lot of grief will diminish and we'll be able to get excited about the program again. Might even be talking about a second production line in a year or so.

 checkmark 



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineParapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1548 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10919 times:

Its great to see real concrete progress. Can't wait for 2009 when we will see what it can really do performance wise (vs the 330-200). The figures that will be really interesting will be "Cost of ownership". I noted Quantas raising some big questions about this recently. It will be a key factor

User currently offlineNomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10637 times:

How much of the interior isn't installed in LNs 1 - 6? Won't LN7 be the real test of how their production plans are panning out? Or are the first 6 flight models pretty much complete and just have added instrumentation for the testing program?


Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12274 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10393 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
I believe that Boeing is being as clear as they can be at this time. There are simply too many laws and regulations related to public companies for them to play with the truth - the SEC would be on them in a heart beat.

Sorry, but that doesn't ring true to me. We had Bair, Carson et al saying that everything was on schedule all through the 7/8/07 roll out (yes, it's almost a year ago) and beyond. The SEC rules didn't prevent them from putting out incredible spin if not outright deception.

For instance, here's what Mike Bair had to say at the Paris Air Show less than a month before the now infamous unveiling of the 787.

The closest Bair comes to hinting at any kind of trouble is to say that everyone is working hard and the work is challenging. Bair had to know at the same time that there was no way the bird was going to fly on time, which at that point was still planned for 9/2007.

So, I appreciate the update, but I take it with a grain of salt. I definitely don't think the SEC plays a very large role in what executives say. It certainly hasn't prevented the wholesale whitewashing that has been characteristic of the 787 program so far. Hopefully Shanahan can accurately predict what is going to happen in just a few weeks time, but all along I haven't been able to fathom why reproducing a milestone in the real plane that should have happened in the "iron bird" lab years ago is taking so long.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 857 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10370 times:



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 6):
How much of the interior isn't installed in LNs 1 - 6?

As with most flight test programs, a minimal amount of finished interior will be on 1-6, except for the one airplane that will be used for interior certification. The others will be outfitted for instrumentation and data collection during flight test and then refurbished before they go to customers.



That's why we're here.
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10278 times:

One can only hope that this time it is true and there are no more complications in the finishing process!  Smile

Quoting ENU (Reply 1):
Third quarter 2009: First 787-8 delivery.

End 2009: 25 787s delivered.

Early 2012: First 787-9 delivery.

Are 25 787´s by the end of 2009 not a little to ambitious?  Smile


User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9828 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
I believe that Boeing is being as clear as they can be at this time. There are simply too many laws and regulations related to public companies for them to play with the truth - the SEC would be on them in a heart beat.

Sorry Ken, I said almost exactly the same thing in August 07, when CaptainX and Clickhappy were saying the 787 wouldn't fly until Jan 08. It turns out that SOX is toothless. I don't know how Boeing wasn't dragged in for making materially false or misleading statements, but here we are eight months later and it still hasn't flown.

Right now Boeing actions speak louder than Press releases.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9788 times:



Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 8):
a minimal amount of finished interior will be on 1-6, except for the one airplane that will be used for interior certification.

Actually, 4 and 6 will both have complete interiors. 4 will have the Boeing signature interior used to test general passenger worthiness of the aircraft, and 6 will have the first customer configuration interior (either NW or NH, I forget), used to "route prove" among other things.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9542 times:



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2):
Prepare ye, all who enter here, for a long, tedious bashfest.

Here's to hoping it doesn't go down the tubes that way....  crossfingers 

I hope Boeing continues to say on track with the program. It seems they have made some very important and much needed changes to the structure of the program. I'm really anxious to see the results from first flight and the performance numbers the 787-8 delivers.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9286 times:

So, someone please explain "power on".

Does this mean the master switch is flipped "on", and all the pretty blinking lights in the cockpit come on, or does it mean the APU is fired up, or does it mean even that the engines get started and she gets taxied around?  eyebrow 



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9208 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
So, someone please explain "power on".

Does this mean the master switch is flipped "on", and all the pretty blinking lights in the cockpit come on, or does it mean the APU is fired up, or does it mean even that the engines get started and she gets taxied around?

I believe it's the former. Installed engine run ups usually don't happen till just before the flight test phase. After power on is achieved you can start to run functional tests on the avionics, flight controls, cycling landing gears, and see how most of the systems function together.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9145 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 14):
cycling landing gears

let's hope there's no rubbing! A380 had the problem in testing, some in service 744s have the problem.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGlbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8598 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
So, someone please explain "power on". Does this mean the master switch is flipped "on", and all the pretty blinking lights in the cockpit come on

Otherwise known as the smoke test. You start by energizing the main power busses and then proceed bringing each independently controlled system up one at a time. If the smoke the engineers worked so hard to contain escapes, you turn that system off and move to the next one.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30406 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8467 times:
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Quoting OHLHD (Reply 9):
Are 25 787´s by the end of 2009 not a little to ambitious?  Smile

It honestly shouldn't be. Once the suppliers are up to speed (and Boeing statements continue to indicate this will be as soon as LN005 or LN006), Boeing will be able to start putting them together in days. It is possible Boeing could have a dozen or even a score of completed 787s in airline colors either on the line at PAE or down in SAT awaiting the granting of the necessary certifications for delivery by the end of Q1/start of Q2 2009.

While we all tend to focus on LN001 because she's the basket-case that has caused so many problems for the program as a whole, with every new major sub-assembly delivery, the production line is closer to operating as originally planned. I believe it was Shanahan who noted that when LN003 moves forward a position, the workers won't need to move forward with her to continue installing systems and components, but will instead be able to start on LN004 as it rolls into the position. I find that to be very good news, since it means the production staff can now concentrate on doing the work they were trained and expected to do and not have to spend extra time doing "travel work" as well as move "off-position" to keep working.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12281 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8306 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
It is possible Boeing could have a dozen or even a score of completed 787s in airline colors either on the line at PAE or down in SAT awaiting the granting of the necessary certifications for delivery by the end of Q1/start of Q2 2009.

While I'm not suggesting anything will go wrong through testing and certification, if either of those did throw up an issue that needed to be addressed, having completed airframes that would need some rework, could present a fairly significant risk.

Given what Boeing has been through thus far, they may well decide it's a risk worth taking. Personally, I would be looking to reduce risk (but that's just me being my normal, risk-averse self!)  crazy 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineFlyin5glow From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8306 times:



Quoting ENU (Reply 1):
Upcoming 787 milestones

June 2008: Power turned on in the first 787.

Summer 2008: First interior installation.

Fourth quarter 2008: First flight.

Third quarter 2009: First 787-8 delivery.

End 2009: 25 787s delivered.

Early 2012: First 787-9 delivery.

Source: http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080520/NEWS01/817927964

If the first 787 will fly by the fourth quarter, why would it take until the third quarter?



Go Huskies
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30406 posts, RR: 84
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8214 times:
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Quoting Scbriml (Reply 18):
While I'm not suggesting anything will go wrong through testing and certification, if either of those did throw up an issue that needed to be addressed, having completed airframes that would need some rework, could present a fairly significant risk.

Honestly, if the 787 test and certification program brings up something so serious as to require major re-design and re-work (and not "in place fixes" like the wingbox for LN001-LN006) then the program will likely be an abject failure and will do serious and significant damage to Boeing so whether they had one plane or one hundred ready to go will make no difference. They'll sell what planes they can, take a ten to eleven-figure loss, and start preparing to sell BCA to the Japanese.

At this point, they've already bet the company, so they might as well operate on the assumption they have the winning number at the roulette table and push for maximum deliveries.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8193 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 18):
While I'm not suggesting anything will go wrong through testing and certification, if either of those did throw up an issue that needed to be addressed, having completed airframes that would need some rework, could present a fairly significant risk.

Absolutely. But there's not much they can do.

No risk, no reward, and with the delays at this point, Boeing must be aggressive in this respect. Barring a "CaptainX" type fiasco where every major system is a failure, the plane nearly crashes, EIS is pushed back 3 more years and the program eventually canceled (yes, those were some of his "predictions"), Boeing will have a lot of planes that only need minor corrections, ready for delivery soon after EIS.

The original 747 had the same sort of situation, with a lot of planes nearly ready for delivery at EIS, parked and waiting for the final changes and tweaks.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2823 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7560 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
The closest Bair comes to hinting at any kind of trouble is to say that everyone is working hard and the work is challenging. Bair had to know at the same time that there was no way the bird was going to fly on time, which at that point was still planned for 9/2007.

Be careful. You are accusing a officer of the company of doing something that would land them in jail for a long time. Are you really so sure?

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 18):

While I'm not suggesting anything will go wrong through testing and certification, if either of those did throw up an issue that needed to be addressed, having completed airframes that would need some rework, could present a fairly significant risk.

There will be a little bit of this, and there is also the risk of what occurred to the A380 (unstandardized and undocumented fixes). My gut read is part of the reason Boeing has taken such a long time with these push backs is to avoid the problems that hit Airbus in the production cycle, taking it in the development cycle instead.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12281 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7012 times:
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Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 24):
undocumented fixes

Are you seriously suggesting Airbus has fixed A380 issues without providing the certification authorities with the required documentation?  faint 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6039 times:

Am it the only one who finds this schedule curious? I mean, isn't first flight usually within about 6 weeks or so after power on? This would put power on about 4 months out from the stated first flight "date". Could it be that BCA left themselves a cushion in the last delay announcement?


Airliners.net Moderator Team
25 Ikramerica : No, from what I recall from someone who made a list of other programs, it's 3-6 months, and Boeing was initially trying to rush it into a matter of w
26 Stitch : Considering the follow-on birds are in much better shape, by the time LN001 finally rolls out onto the tarmac for the first time as a complete and tes
27 Osiris30 : Never happen, but DAMN would that be sweet
28 Ikramerica : Boeing does not have LN001, LN002 or any other LNXXX aircraft. Those are Airbus numbers. Boeing is using ZA for their nomenclature. The six flying tes
29 NYC777 : I wouldn't be surprised if LN 2 - LN 6 follow at 3 - 4 week increments out the door. IMO, starting with LN 5 or LN 6 there should be no more traveled
30 Stitch : I've seen both used interchangeably. More folks use LN so that is what I have been sticking with.
31 Post contains links NAV20 : That's exactly what they did, and said that they'd done, MCIGuy:- "Boeing officials, whose previous 787 delivery predictions have repeatedly been pro
32 Tdscanuck : You won't see aircraft labeled with "LN001". However, Boeing does identify aircraft by line number. They also identify aircraft by variable number...
33 Burkhard : 5 weeks to wait for power on. Hope all goes well this round!
34 Revelation : Can you see any scenario where the 787 program manager (btw not a company "officer") would not know that the mostly empty shell of the 787 wasn't goi
35 Tdscanuck : How much detail do you think a program manager knows about exactly what has to be done on every part of the airplane? There are a lot of layers of ma
36 Post contains links Beaucaire : Some new glitches ...(although minor ones ..?) http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...viationdaily&id=news/SUPP05238.xml
37 Ikramerica : Ah, software bugs. Gotta love the future. The upside of the problems being software related is that it shouldn't involve rewiring of anything.
38 Beaucaire : ...that's when you address the right driver-interfaces and sensors ...otherwise software bugs can be pain in the a.. !
39 Nomadd22 : By doing what good program managers do, and walking past those layers and talking to people on the floor. Good program, or any other type of managers
40 Gigneil : Yes I am sure, and I don't believe even for a moment it would land them in jail. Public statements are always couched as forward looking and have dis
41 NYC777 : I think 6 would have the interior that RAM wants since that airplane will go to them once flight testing is done.
42 Ikramerica : Ah, didn't know it was RAM. Wonder though it they would still install NH or NW instead, since they are the first to get the 787, then swap in RAM dur
43 Stitch : Will Boeing use an actual customer interior, or will they go more generic (using current styles of suites/seats and pitches as they did with the 77L a
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