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Looking For All Info On [the Sinking] Kansai (KIX)  
User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2789 posts, RR: 15
Posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Hello all,
in response to the airport problems of Chicago as an alternative to placing an airport far south of the city in the government-desired Peotone area, a group of us is working on a proposal to send to Gov. Ryan of Illinois on an airport called Chicago-Hydro International Airport (KCHI). The airport would be located slightly north of downtown Chicago in Lake Michigan. In order to design it we've already found and researched depth maps of Lake Michigan and are looking for all available information on Kansai International, the Japanese airport built in the ocean. If anyone knows of any good sites, and we need pictures to present the case well so good pictures are also useful, or addresses to right to, please let me know... thanks a bunch!

(The basis for the lake-based airport idea is that it is cheap, either Chicago already owns or no one owns the lake area to be used, so the millions to be spent on buying land are eliminated, it's been done before with KIX, it's environmentaly safe and quiet as planes would not have to fly in over either Chicago or Gary, Indiana, and it would allow very fast easy transport directly into downtown Chicago, which the airport in Peotone most definitely would not. A four to seven mile bridge built out to the airport featuring multi-lane separated highways on two levels with speed limits at 60 miles an hour would allow cars fast, easy access into the city with no other traffic from other streets, and a constantly run rail system would allow business people to be taken into Chicago's downtown trainstation or a new underground facility where they could take taxis only blocks to their hotels and never even have to rent cars. It's Environmental, Efficient, and Ethical - we figure if the Japanese can do it with earthqaukes and monsoons, we certainly can.)


"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

If anyone is curious, here's a lo-res. picture of the depth maps for Lake Michigan near Chicago. Higher resolution images are available at: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/greatlakes/lakemich_cdrom/images/area4hi.gif



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineBoeingrulz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 466 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3488 times:
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Do you have any cost estimates for your proposed island airport? It seems that the depths are quite favorable.

I understand that one reason Kansai is sinking faster than expected is that there was a deep layer of sediment below the island that could not be stabalized because it continued deeper than the equipment could drill and fill with stabalizing grout. Only the top layer of the sediment was treated and the sediment below the stabalized layer could not be mediated. The total weight of the entire island is settling the sediment below the ocean floor.

If the sediment below the Chicago airport island could be stabalized with existing technologies then it probably wouldn't sink as fast as KIX.

I have been following this story for years and I think it is one of the most fascinating construction projects in this (last) century.

Carolyn



User currently offlineN757tw From United States of America, joined May 2000, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Acouple of months ago TLC did a special about KIX, pretty good. You should check it out.

n 7 5 7 t w


User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

I'm sorry to throw cold water on your proposal, but the idea of building an airport on reclaimed landfill in Lake Michigan has been looked at a number of times as early as the 1960's. The reasons it has been rejected is because of the prohibitive cost as well as environmental concerns. In addition, no one living in the condos on the North Shore is going tolerate an airport going up and spoiling their view. It would be the closest thing Chicago has seen to WW III

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineKevin From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

747-600x!
I just hope that after 10-15 years when I come to this forum, I don't see a topic having as a subject "Lookining for all info concerning (sinking) Chicago- Hydro International Airport.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

Two preferable locations exist, a southern one would put it out from Chicago's "south side", an area where low-quality residences are the typical. Because of the expressed concern about the lake view being ruined, this might be the better option. However, the airport would be nearly seven miles out into the lake, and while pictures that can be found on this site of Kansai show the mainland clearly despite it being three miles out, at twice that distance and then some the mainland will be visible from the airport, but from the shore it would appear very small. At lake level general city air pollution would prevent it from being visible at all except on clear days. We would also request that Helmut Jahn be the project's main architect. His use of glass would give the airport an intensely reflective nature, and the terminal building would be put on the city side. We would request that the terminal facing the city be designed essentially as a mostly smooth, glass structure, reflecting the lake, so whatever the case the airport would have a 'sparkly' nature to it with the greyer, brown runways in the background beyond sight. And lastly, the concerns of condominium owners must be taken in relation to those of farm owners near Peotone. I think an airport visible only by those who own northshore residences that are actually ON the shore and are a bit above it, meaning fifth-and-up story residences, would upset far less people than a massive inland project requiring the government to buy out a huge area of land.

As far as sinking is concerned, the lake bottom is made of a softer material than that which Kansai is on, but it is more stable. There are no Earthquakes and there is little geomorphing that takes place of any kind. The idea proposed for this project would be to drive skyscraper-like piles into the lake bottom farther down than those at Kansai, and once the sedimentary layers are secured with one form of concrete or another a thick steel framework, not unlike those used for the construction of off-shore oil wells, would be used to secure the bottom most layers of soil. The sight selected would be on as flat as level an area. In the elevation map shown of the lake's bottom in my previous post, you will notice an area East of the word "Chicago" and then somewhat North, where the fourth contour line dips South creating a large 'inlet' in that layer. This is our first proposed construction sight, because we would be building in a surrounded 'bay' where the lake-bottom rises around an enclosed area. That way the diagonal slopes of the sides of the island onto the surrounding natural lakebed would provide additional support. Because a concern with Kansai was in fact Earthquakes, very large rocks were used near the upper layers, which allows water and upper thinner soils to sift through. In Chicago that would not be nearly as much of a problem, so the entire mass of the island could be constructed in a far more solid and uniform fashion.

Runways would be at a due NW-SE angle (we are currently considering three parallel runways of 14,000, 11,000, and 8,000 ft. lengths). This would be so that flight paths into the airport would be neither over Chicago or north-shore suburbs or the Gary area.

No reasonable estimate of cost is yet available.

The mean depth of the lake at the proposed location is about 75 feet. The south-side location (which would require a ten-mile bridge though being only six miles from shore) has a mean depth of about 60 feet.



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

No kiddin'! Thusfar that is our largest concern!


"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineDatamanA340 From South Korea, joined Dec 2000, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

Currently Japan has two island airports: Nagasaki (NGS) and Kansai International. Nagasaki is opened about 20 years ago and there isn't such a sinking problems, but NGS serves less than 30 flights daily, and Chicago doesn't need airport like this. By your 'Depth imagery', The depth of Michigan looks a little shallower than Kansai, about 60 feet average.

Airport on filled island in inland lake is usually better than in ocean because of thiner alluvial layer, but it doesn't always work. Kansai's sinking is not due to earthquake, just lack of ground hardness. There was Hanshin earthquake, but Osaka region including KIX had almost no damage.

Well, when Chicago Hydro comes real, I won't fly there Big grin

Also consult Chubu International Airport: New ocean airport near Nagoya undergoing, http://www.cjiac.co.jp


User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

Dataman - thanks for the links to the new airport's site - there are some drawings on there which serve well as suggestions for drawings for CHI.

As far as the north-shore view disruption concern goes, I've been talking to people about that just in the last few hours since my original post. I've met few who think that seven miles away it would be much of a problem, and one who even said that the view of incoming aircraft and the awesome panorama of the linking bridge would be worth moving their just for that view. I don't think this will prove a major concern. As DatamanA340 said, it also doesn't seem sinking will be such a vast concern...

I will make a new post addressing the airport proposal directly... Thanks all!!!



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineDatamanA340 From South Korea, joined Dec 2000, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

Just to correct.

Actually KIX is sinking, and so much! You said so:
the lake bottom is made of a softer material than that which Kansai is on.
What you said 'stable' is about earthquake, and KIX sinking is not due to earthquakes. It's just story about GROUND. Maybe very strict research is needed. I think Chicago-Hydro has better condition than KIX, because it's located in inland lake, but still less preferred.


User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3423 times:

My comment about Earthquakes was not meant to be directly related to the stability of the ground beneath the airport. The softness of the lakebottom is due to the fact that it is far more swampy muddy material - most of Chicago was once a swamplike area before it was developed. This is good for driving piles farther down than was possible in Japan. I am well aware that KIX is sinking far faster than expected, but what did you mean when you said 'less preferred'?


"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineDatamanA340 From South Korea, joined Dec 2000, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week ago) and read 3415 times:

Of course than now-existing ones, like O'Hare. I stated that Chicago looks to have better condition than KIX. KIX is almost the worst, ocean, and more, an inland sea surrounded by Honshu and Shikoku. Normally, this circumstance makes worst of worst for building an airport. (And believe or not, but Kobe plans to build another ocean airport.)

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