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Air France To Decide In 2009 Between A350 Or 787  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11579 times:

..this information was revealed today at the presentation of AF's 2007 results.
The company would most likely decide in 2009 for up to 100 aircraft in the A350/Boeing 787 class,but felt it was too early to decide,based on the facts and information available today.

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...chten-2008-05/artikel-10885555.asp


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11582 times:

Isn't most of their ULH/L.H. fleet mostly Boeing?

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11474 times:



Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 1):
Isn't most of their ULH/L.H. fleet mostly Boeing?

Yes - 50 B777s and 23 B744s as opposed to 16 A330s and 19 A340s (according to airfleets.net).

But that doesn't necessarily have to be the deciding factor - they've got a pretty good record of ordering what suits them best. If the A350 comes out ahead, they'll order that - if the B787 does, then Boeing gets the deal.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11475 times:



Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 1):
Isn't most of their ULH/L.H. fleet mostly Boeing?

I hope they select the 787, too, but i don't think the 787 has a higher chance to be chosen than the A350, nor a smaller one.

AF isn't a loyal customer, they will choose the airplane which suites better into their business plan. They have chosen the 777 when they realised their A340s can't compete with the 777 and they will do the same thing here if they think the A350 is better for them.

The question right now is, what is AF (and KL) searching for? They have a massive 777 fleet and still 777s on order, so what kind of aircraft they are searching? Something smaller than the 777, like the 787 or a 777-replacement like the A350?!



My bets are on the 787 as they will get more 777s and 777Fs. They won't start replacing them in just 5 to 7 years. I think they will opt for the 787 for more point to point flights and to use them from other airports than their hubs, e.g. for Open Skies flights from other countries.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31057 posts, RR: 87
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11453 times:
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I think the 787 has a good shot with both AF and KL for the initial purchase. We won't see the 787-10 until the latter half of the 2010's which does give Boeing a great deal of time to get it to be at least as good as the 77E/A343E in terms of range and payload and close to the A359 in terms of fuel burn, so if Boeing is aggressive on 77E and 77L leases to serve as interim lift until a 787-10 is ready, airlines with both large A330 and 777/A340 fleets could be motivated to choose the 787 - especially for those airlines like AF and KL who have new 77W fleets and don't see an immediate need for the A350-1000...

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5772 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11396 times:



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
They have 19 A340-300s, 16 A330-200s, 25 B777-200ERs and 25 B777-300ERs, so Boeing just has the upper hand here in the current twin-jet tally. I think this will go to Airbus, not based on any fact, just my own thoughts.

If this is to go to Airbus then they better have GE all involved in the A350 as the second engine supplier or this will go to the 787 hands down. It seems AF has given Airbus till 2009 to lock up GE as the second engine on the A350.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11374 times:

My bet?

They will make a very big show of it (they have seen how EK, QR etc do it) and will thoroughly compare the 787 to the A350. In the end they will order the 787, because as some have said:

Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
they will get more 777s and 777Fs. They won't start replacing them in just 5 to 7 years.

Their low-end widebody fleet is in more urgent need of replacement and the 787 comes with GE engines.

After a few years however, they will also order the A350 as the plane meets all their capacity needs, the 777 fleet will be up for replacement by then, fuel will be at 200+ dollars a barrel and the GE only policy will have to go anyway at those prices (if GE hasn't stepped on board the XWB by then).

Think about it: looking at the current fleet of AF/KL and projecting it 10 to 15 years ahead in time, it is a given they will fly BOTH the 787 and the A350.  Wink

My bets are:
25 x 787-8
25 x 787-9
ordered next year to replace the A330/A340 fleet and care for some expansion
25 x A350-900
25 x A350-1000
ordered in 2010/2011 to replace the 777 fleet 1:1.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11278 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
,but felt it was too early to decide,based on the facts and information available today.

Read: the lack of engines available on the A350 makes it impossible for us to make a decison now.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11239 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
Read: the lack of engines available on the A350 makes it impossible for us to make a decison now.

So sehe ich das auch...
GE better make an offer rather sooner than later for the A350...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11226 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
Read: the lack of engines available on the A350 makes it impossible for us to make a decison now.

I agree, but this might be the door in for GE. If Airbus can convince GE that it will be worth their investment, this might be the way in with a huge A350 order from AF-KL.

Somehow, I have a feeling this is not going to be a split decision. IMHO I think this might be a winner take all.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11198 times:

Interesting to hear. I believe we will see a split between both Boeing and Airbus.However not a 50:50 but an rather higher number of A350 but that is just my personal feeling. I am sure Air France will not make themselves depended on one of them.  Smile

User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11125 times:



Quoting Leskova (Reply 2):
Yes - 50 B777s and 23 B744s as opposed to 16 A330s and 19 A340s (according to airfleets.net).



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
They have 19 A340-300s, 16 A330-200s, 25 B777-200ERs and 25 B777-300ERs,

This is only the AF fleet. The order will be a joint order, so you have to include KL's fleet of 10 a332's, 22 744's, 17 777's (including 2 77W's) and 10 MD11's.

Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
Read: the lack of engines available on the A350 makes it impossible for us to make a decison now.

IIRC 2009 was the intent for a while. Also, Spinetta said in the past that if the a350 is the right plane (no doubt also at the right price) for them, they would order it, no matter the engine. And commonality is not such an issue with a 100 aircraft order. Don't forget, KL also has some RR's and PW's in their fleet (Fokkers), as do the AF regionals. I know, no commonality whatsoever, but it shows that if the aircraft is right, the engine does not matter that much. And as AF is no longer a nationalized company with no ties to SNECMA, they're decision will not be based on that alone.

What may be a bigger issue is simply the lack of (engine) competition for the a350.

IMHO the a350 is better suited to replace the a343's, 744 combi's and MD11's. I wouldn't be surprised to see both the 787 and a350 flying with AF and KL in the future. The 777's and a330's (especially KL's) don't need to be replace for a while, so they may also opt for more 77W's to replace the 744's (full pax). In fact, I think that's a given.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10828 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
My bets are:
25 x 787-8
25 x 787-9
ordered next year to replace the A330/A340 fleet and care for some expansion
25 x A350-900
25 x A350-1000

 no 

I highly doubt AF will buy both; they will get either a mix of B787 OR a mix of A350.
They will first replace the A343. There is no plan to replace the B777s yet ! and AF is known to use their plane until their very end.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
The order will be a joint order, so you have to include KL's fleet of 10 a332's, 22 744's, 17 777's (including 2 77W's) and 10 MD11's.

Kappel is very right. You must not think AF renewal fleet on one side and KL renewal fleet on the other side.
AF-KL has now only one common Department in charge of the fleet renewal and this Department is managed by a Dutch guy, from KLM ....


The deal, again, is quite simple, as it was said, written, re-said and re-written ten thousand times :

If the A350 becomes available with GE engines, then AF will evaluate both aircraft "for real" (and that's probably why AF delayed its decision, originally planned for October this year to 2009.

If Airbus doesn't find an agreement with GE for powering the A350, then there is no mystery : AF will go for the B787.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10807 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
The company would most likely decide in 2009 for up to 100 aircraft in the A350/Boeing 787 class,but felt it was too early to decide,based on the facts and information available today.

Right...

Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
Read: the lack of engines available on the A350 makes it impossible for us to make a decison now.

Or, more precisely, "we are going to choose the A350, but until GE signs on, we won't do so, and we have to make it seem as if we are really having an open competition, so we have to delay until we can convince Airbus and GE to figure it out."



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10548 times:
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Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
AF isn't a loyal customer, they will choose the airplane which suites better into their business plan. They have chosen the 777 when they realised their A340s can't compete with the 777 and they will do the same thing here if they think the A350 is better for them

Air France doesn't buy Rolls Royce engines since GE has a joint vernture with Snecma for the CFM egines of the A320 and 737 NG. Since RR is the ONLY A340-600 engine is the reason I have always heard from why they didn't buy the plane. Since the Boeing 777-300ER has GE 90's they bought dozens of them, what a great advertisement for Boeing.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10473 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
Air France doesn't buy Rolls Royce engines since GE has a joint vernture with Snecma for the CFM egines of the A320 and 737 NG.

I really have a hard time believing that AF will only order the a350 if it has GE, solely because of the SNECMA connection, purely because SNECMA is French. AF has AFAIK no ties with SNECMA, and as such, no real benefit for solely hedging their bets on GE. If the argument would be engine commonality, I would find it more believable. Especially since AF and KL as loyal GE customers will most likely get very good deals from them. But I really would not be surprised if Airbus and RR team up to give AFKL a really good package deal on the a350, they would still choose it.

Up until recently, few people believed CX would choose anything not powered by RR. IMHO, times have changed in this respect and there are no loyalties to a certain engine, based solely on nationality.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10419 times:

A decision late in 2009 will give Airbus more time to develop the 350 and it will also give Boeing more time to clear up the 787 production issues. Both will be important to AF in evaluating the planes.

I think the additional time will also be important in evaluating how the market changes with the inflated price of fuel - and also to try to project how fuel costs will change in the future. If fuel continues to rise it is hitting both the airlines and their passengers. Reductions in pax flying may impact their decision as much as the design and costs of the 350 & 787.

Regardless, this is going to be an interesting deal to follow as we near a decision.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10241 times:

I just don't see a need for the A350 quite yet. Most of their 777s are very young and don't need to be replaced yet, AF 747s are probably going to be replaced by the A380 (is that for sure?). KLM has new 777s and 744s that will need to be replaced, with KLM most of their 747s are combo versions so I think a 787 would replace that perfectly along with A330s. AF will need the 787 to compete against things like open skies airlines and work with the open skies agreement itself allow for more point to point travel. I can see them ordering the A350 later but not quite yet.

I see AF:
787-8/9 to replace A330s and A340s and open new P2P routes
A350-9/10 later to replace 777 across the board (assuming hoeing doesnt update the 777)

KLM:
787-8/9 to replace A330s and 747 combi
A350 later again to replace 777 and non combi 744s

I don't see them having a problem having both types in their fleet down the road, kind of like the A340 and 777 working together, but I can see a 787 order coming first especially if GE doesnt get on board the A350


User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 907 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10136 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 17):
I just don't see a need for the A350 quite yet. Most of their 777s are very young and don't need to be replaced yet, AF 747s are probably going to be replaced by the A380 (is that for sure?). KLM has new 777s and 744s that will need to be replaced, with KLM most of their 747s are combo versions so I think a 787 would replace that perfectly along with A330s. AF will need the 787 to compete against things like open skies airlines and work with the open skies agreement itself allow for more point to point travel. I can see them ordering the A350 later but not quite yet.

I see this mention quite often about how young the AF and KLM 777s are and how old that means the 330s are to be replaced first. But the 330 is a relatively young plane in both fleets. For KLM, the 747s and MD11s are first to go (although, on assumes that 777s are serving most of that role), for AF it is the 744s and 340s (also partly being replaced by 380s, 330s, and 777s). For AF, one would assume that 772s have a decent shot of leaving before 330s.

Likewise, I don't get why the 787 is clearly (in the minds of many in these parts) the replacement of choice for the 343 and the 350 for the 772ER (I think either one would do for either replacement depending on the size of your fleet and what other part of the market you need to fill.

While I would think that the 787 has at least an even chance of making it into the AF/KLM fleet, it is interesting to note that both airlines have chopped the low end of the fleets in the 767s.

cheers.


User currently offlineBanjo76 From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10034 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):

Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
AF isn't a loyal customer, they will choose the airplane which suites better into their business plan. They have chosen the 777 when they realised their A340s can't compete with the 777 and they will do the same thing here if they think the A350 is better for them

Air France doesn't buy Rolls Royce engines since GE has a joint vernture with Snecma for the CFM egines of the A320 and 737 NG. Since RR is the ONLY A340-600 engine is the reason I have always heard from why they didn't buy the plane. Since the Boeing 777-300ER has GE 90's they bought dozens of them, what a great advertisement for Boeing.

I don't quite get it:
why is AF so loyal to powerplant manufacturer, GE/SNECMA and not to aircraft manufacturers?
If the reason is political, read ties with a French company, then I don't get why those ties should not be in place with Airbus too.

I the reason is economical, then I don't understand why Airbus/RR should not be an option if they prove to perfectly fit AFKL needs/requirements.

Banjo


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6926 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10010 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 15):
I really have a hard time believing that AF will only order the a350 if it has GE

Agreed.

The argument is that AF places a higher priority on getting GE (or not getting RR?) than it does on getting the 'right' airliner. This simply beggars belief.

Take this to its logical conclusion. AF conclude that Airliner X is the best plane for them but order Airliner Z (which is less good) because they want GE.

The implication must also be that AF's loyalty to GE is greater than their loyalty to Airbus. After all, they bought a Boeing with GE rather than take the competing Airbus with RR.

(Or it might just be that they pick the best combination to meet their needs...  Wink )

If I held shares in AF/KL I'd want them to pick the best deal available and bugger the name or flag on the side of the engines!


User currently onlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9977 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
they will fly BOTH the 787 and the A350.

I agree - I think both types will have a place with AF/KL, just like SQ and QR (and even SU). They may not split this initial order, but I think eventually both will wear the AF and/or KL liveries.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9851 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 17):
I just don't see a need for the A350 quite yet. Most of their 777s are very young and don't need to be replaced yet,



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 17):
KLM:
787-8/9 to replace A330s

According to your logic I see no need for the 787-8/-9 for KLM. The A332 of KLM are much younger than AF 777-200s.
The A350-800/-900 would be a great A340 replacement for AF and the first 772 are not much younger than the A343s in AF´s fleet.
Both aircraft have advantages and disadvantages it will be interesting to see what comes out in the end.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineHMan From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9772 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 22):
According to your logic I see no need for the 787-8/-9 for KLM. The A332 of KLM are much younger than AF 777-200s.
The A350-800/-900 would be a great A340 replacement for AF and the first 772 are not much younger than the A343s in AF´s fleet.
Both aircraft have advantages and disadvantages it will be interesting to see what comes out in the end.

Also AF's A330s are younger than their 777-200ERs.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9766 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 17):
KLM has new 777s and 744s that will need to be replaced, with KLM most of their 747s are combo versions so I think a 787 would replace that perfectly along with A330s.

The a359 would do that just as well.

Quoting Dank (Reply 18):
For KLM, the 747s and MD11s are first to go

Agreed

Quoting Dank (Reply 18):
for AF it is the 744s and 340s

Again agreed. Although IIRC the 744's are being replaced by the 77W at AF (and no doubt also KL's full pax 744's), the AF a343's and KL 744 combi's can be replaced by the 789 or a359 (little bit bigger, but accounts for growth).

Quoting Columba (Reply 22):
The A350-800/-900 would be a great A340 replacement for AF and the first 772 are not much younger than the A343s in AF´s fleet.

Agreed, add the MD11 and 744 combi's and you've got a nice fleet. IMHO, the a343, MD11 and 744 combi's can be replaced by a single type, either 789 or a359. The a359 is bigger, but as said before, this accounts for growth. To counteract the loss of cargo capacity when the 744 combi's are retired from pax service, we may see them converted to full freighters, or some 777F's for KL as well. Could be a nice addition to the AF 777F order.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
25 Scbriml : It is surprising how many people think the A350 can only replace 777s! Many people consider the 787 a perfect 767 replacement, and yet AF/KL has no 76
26 Kappel : I think this order runs that risk anyway, on a.net at least. If they go with the 787, many will say, "because the a350 has no GE engines". IMHO AFKL
27 Rj111 : They may fly both in the future but i expect this to be a 787. They've only just added new 773ERs so the top end of the long haul fleet is accounted f
28 AFGMEL : Oh come now, if AF were so Jingoistic as some American airlines they would never have bought so many 777s.
29 DL767captain : Sorry i wasn't totally clear, i didn't mean the A330s would be replaced immediately. A 787 order wouldn't arrive in the fleet for a while. When it di
30 Ikramerica : They still get heck for it, but that's not the point. The 777 was superior, especially the 77W with 10Y seating. And now that AF has committed to suc
31 LAXDESI : I think the advantage is with B789 over A358. IMO(based on widebody's data), B789 will have a lower fuel burn/seat mile, and by extension CASM. Wideb
32 Goldorak : it depends which 772 we are talking about. But, yes, the A332 fleet at AF is very young. The first one was delivered to AF at the beginning of januar
33 Stitch : In two classes, a KL 787-8 should hold as many Business Class seats and be within about two dozen Economy seats as their 744M fleet, so a 787-9 would
34 Astuteman : You need to be a little bit careful of some of that data. It isn't always the bible. Particularly in your example, where the specs for both aircraft
35 Columba : Agreed, the A350-800 and -900 are also very good A330/A340 replacements. The A350-800 is slightly smaller than the A343 and the A359 is a little bit
36 Astuteman : As a point of order, the 787 "has the space to carry more cargo"..... That's not necessarily the same as "carries more cargo" - which depens on a who
37 Post contains images EPA001 : As always you are spot on with your post Astuteman. In my humble opinion this possible order of AF-KLM is going to be a very tough one. Both Airbus a
38 Columba : Airbus narrowbodies and A380s would be the minimum Airbus can have with AF, they will not fall behind that. The narrowbody fleet is pretty large so i
39 Burkhard : An airline that has sold all 767 ( but one) has no usage for the 788 in 2015 or 2020. 789 maybe a few for low yield routes, 7810 or 359 are the size t
40 NCB : A350XWB all the way, it's pretty obvious. There seems to be a bit of confusion here about the reason AF always orders GE. The reason is not because GE
41 Columba : I disagree, AF-KLM uses the A332 on many of their routes, the 787-8 would be a good replacment. As the A332 are very new this will not happen any tim
42 Columba : What now ? A350 all the way or mixed 787/A350s ?
43 Goldorak : Currently, AF mainline fleet is (approximately, as their information on their web site is may be not completely up-to-date) : - long haul (including
44 Stitch : Also, one should no longer assume that world traffic is going to see consistent strong expansion in an era of sustained high oil prices. "Today's" pa
45 LAXDESI : Cutting back frequency on routes with multiple flights is another possibility. As for routes with one flight, one could go from 7x weekly to 6/5x wee
46 DL767captain : what you should be looking at is what aircraft need to be replaced. The older 744s are being replaced by 777s (which they have currently and still ha
47 Stitch : Likely around 2016 for either plane...
48 NCB : What drives you to write comments like this? The 787-9 is not coming before 2015, and there are quite some orders already for this bird, so AF-KLM wo
49 Trex8 : at last, someone who really understands the AF/Snecma(Safran)/GEnx relationship. And probably because you are Belgian as its a Safran Belgian subsidi
50 DL767captain : I'm feeling fine, AF just started LAX-LHR not too long ago operating under the open skies agreement. The MD-11s will probably be replaced by the 777s
51 PM : You are aware that Airbus have sold 146 x A35-800 to 14 customers? That compares with 208 x 787-9 also to 14 customers. You seem to read the evidence
52 NCB : I'm pretty busy so I sometimes mess up my phrase structures, apologies. The XWB engines might be very challenging to make. Airbus is demanding alot f
53 NCB : I just checked the data and the A350-800 is 2-3 meters shorter and 20cm wider. So in fact, it may be assumed that it is of the same size and even a b
54 Astuteman : You didn't actually mean to write that, did you? (or are your real initials RA, by any chance? ) The A350-800 has taken roughly 40% of all A350 order
55 DL767captain : You didn't actually mean to write that, did you? (or are your real initials RA, by any chance? ) The A350-800 has taken roughly 40% of all A350 order
56 Columba : The 777-200 will not stay much longer as the A343s and MD 11s and very likely they will be replaced by the same aircraft. The A350-800/-900 is just a
57 Astuteman : To be fair, he has pointed out that this was in error. Rgds
58 EPA001 : @Columba: In the post previous to yours you can see that DL767captain admitted that he made a mistake by taken the sold numbers of A350-1000 Aircraft
59 EPA001 : You have beaten me on responding to Columba's error, Astuteman. But better a correction made twice than not at all! I am pretty sure Columba will see
60 Worldrider : bear in mind the main reason - unofficial, but often heard from the local industry-AF chose to order many 777s -instead of the A340s- is beacause of
61 BoogyJay : Also, don't forget the B777s are the only aircraft to have the 3 class product (and 9 more J seats than the A332). That may be the prime reason for t
62 FlySSC : AF used its A332 on CDG-HKG-CDG and is still using it on CDG-NRT-CDG. It was also used as a substitute on the CDG-SFO route so AF has no weight issue
63 Stitch : With respect, GE was building engines that met the thrust requirements for the entire A350XWB family back in the 1990's - it's called the GE90 and it
64 Columba : Sorry I did not read that. That is why I was tried to be as objective as possible, I really did not want to start another Airbus vs Boeing war
65 EPA001 : Yup, I know that. But sometimes one line in a post on A-net is enough for many others to start one. That was the meaning of that one sentence in my r
66 DL767captain : Thank you for pointing that out. Yes the A350 is just as good of a replacement but IMO i see the A350 more as a 777 or larger replacement and the 787
67 AirNZ : Considering that neither aircraft has flown yet, and the 787-9 not even designed, how do you conclude that the A350 can't "compete as well as the 787
68 Trex8 : Gordon Brown will be as amenable to RLI for RR as any of his predecessors or as he did as chancellor of the exchequer under Blair! GE had no compunct
69 LAXDESI : Add to that the possibility of 9-abreast in Y(as chosen by SQ) for 789, A358 will be at a greater disadvantage.
70 DL767captain : Personally when i look at the specs given from both companies i see the 787-9 as a better plane for the given situation, but i will admit i am obviou
71 Stitch : Well the A350-800 will be at 9-abreast, as well, but SQ did order the 787-9 instead of the A350-800 to complement their A350-900s... And considering
72 LAXDESI : The A358 in 9-abreast Y is at a severe disadvantage against B789(in 9-abreast Y) for most routes. Airbus will have to explore 10-abreast Y on A358 to
73 Astuteman : Severe? Rgds
74 LAXDESI : I meant severe as in "of a great degree". I am not sure if you are questioning my choice of word here. Perhaps severe is too strong a word for the cl
75 Imiakhtar : The UK Govt. invested around $500 million in the Trent 900. I am yet to hear of any aid being offered for the T1000 or the T XWB.
76 NCB : In the US maybe, not so much in the rest of the world. I still have to see the first European airline go bust in this US recession. Now, I don't thin
77 WAH64D : I'm not even going to suggest a likely winner of this contract because I don't think AF/KL themselves know what they want. I think its easily the most
78 Stitch : I know most Europeans would dance in the streets if they paid $4 a gallon for gasoline or $5 for a gallon of diesel, but a good part of that is becau
79 WAH64D : Sorry Stitch, I don't buy that in the slightest. Your examples are sound but they do nothing to justify GE's unwillingness to spend money in R&D when
80 JRadier : Point is, AF/KL has most of their support systems for GE engines. The KLM Engine Shop is one of the leading overhaul sites for GE engines so it makes
81 Stitch : I have no doubt the GEnx is not designed to scale to 90,000+ lbs of thrust because there was no need to develop it. I expect GE can do it since they
82 Flpuck6 : Hi everyone, I think above all, Air France is waiting to see whether or not these planes can fly first !
83 Scbriml : It would be just as valid to suggest, especially given that SQ purchased their 787s first, that there was no point in them purchasing the -800 and th
84 PM : Allow me to disagree. Yes, they have years of experience with GE. That sounds like an excellent argument to diversify and add RR to their portfolio.
85 Columba : There was no reason for SQ to order the -800 as they have ordered the 787 before the A350. I never believed they would order the A350 anyway because
86 Astuteman : The writing is on the wall.... That has indeed been proposed by GE (via EA) . It was in fact in this proposal that GE stated the 4% SFC difference be
87 Kappel : I fully agree. It seems engine commonality is becoming a bit less of a factor. You mention PW and SQ. Other examples are CX and their legendary loyal
88 Worldrider : have a quick look AF/KLM results, no drop for 07-08 on any market, just a drop in DROP OF GROWTH in Q4, therefore no drop, a healthy growth in the As
89 Stitch : SQ has certainly never been shy about dropping one model for another. They were content to abuse the 77E around Asia instead of operate the A330 in t
90 Scbriml : Well, I think "delivery dates" is the most likely reason. Even with the 787's delays and pushing back the -9 to "early 2012", SQ should get -9s at le
91 YULWinterSkies : The 744 are not staying for long, but one should add the A380 to the list, as well as KL's A330s and 777s (and MD11s). Yes, I'm sure they'd love to f
92 Stitch : SQ's original delivery date was 2011-2013. The original EIS for the 787-9 was late 2010 and is now sometime in 2012. So SQ is likely towards the fron
93 Scbriml : Yes, that's the situation today after Boeing's 787 challenges, but certainly not what SQ expected when they placed their order (one year before their
94 Ken777 : I know that the rising costs of fuel is impacting me - not only when topping the car up with petrol, but when buying anything that is delivered via t
95 WunalaYann : JL, yes to a certain extent. But let us not forget that NH was one of the largest operators of L1011s. Their 32Xs are CFM-powered... And of course no
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