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American Eagle: Stuck With Odd E135/E140s?  
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9496 times:

With the looming airline crisis coupled with the crisis of smaller regional jets, I am wondering what the future holds for American Eagle's E140 and E135. The recent decision to park most of the E135 leaves AMR with a unwanted fleet of aircraft that will be very difficult to sell, and sooner or later the much larger E140 fleet will face the same fate and present AMR with an even bigger problem.

The market for new regional jets with 50 seats or less is virtually dead and while at least 50 seaters struggle on with most airlines, 37 seat E135s are only used by a handful of airlines and in very small numbers world-wide. I can see the E135 ending up as corporate jets after some modifcations as the E135BJ is quite successful, but of course it is much more difficult to sell a fleet of 40 or so aircraft if potential customers do not bulk order their aircraft but rather need just one or two.

Plus, the future certainly does not look bright for the E140 of which American Eagle and Chautauqua are the only operators worldwide. They must operate 80+ examples of this odd-ball aircraft. It probably will not interest any airline customer and with a ready supply of E135, it will be difficult as well to sell it as a business jet unless they are willig to give them away.

Any thought what the future will hold for AE's E135 and E140s ? Are the aircraft owned or leased?

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9217 times:

Who said they were parking the 135's? No decisions have even been made yet.

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9200 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Thread starter):
I am wondering what the future holds for American Eagle's E140 and E135. The recent decision to park most of the E135 leaves AMR with a unwanted fleet of aircraft that will be very difficult to sell, and sooner or later the much larger E140 fleet will face the same fate and present AMR with an even bigger problem.

why is this a problem????? They will take a non-cash write off and park them..yeah no one wants them..so what? No one wanted DC-10s and 727s after 9-11 either....


User currently offlineBravo1Six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9095 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):
why is this a problem????? They will take a non-cash write off and park them..yeah no one wants them..so what? No one wanted DC-10s and 727s after 9-11 either....

Are they leased, financed or owned and fully paid for? Parking them in the desert gets a bit expensive unless they're paid for in full.


User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9067 times:

I don't know if they are paid for or not but MQ owns the ERJ's. I can't predict the future of the company but I would look for a turbo prop purchase coming perhaps the new ATR.


721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9009 times:



Quoting Bravo1Six (Reply 3):
Are they leased, financed or owned and fully paid for? Parking them in the desert gets a bit expensive unless they're paid for in full.

if they are leased, only bankruptcywill get them out of it


User currently offlineImapilotaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8915 times:



Quoting Bravo1Six (Reply 3):
Are they leased, financed or owned and fully paid for? Parking them in the desert gets a bit expensive unless they're paid for in full.

The likely hood is that even if they are "purchased" and and debt financed, that they sitll owe money on the aircraft. Unless an aircraft is 8+ years old, a typical debt financing is at least 8 years (many are 12-15 years), so you owe something on them. As the OP stated, if they are in such large numbers (CHQ is dumping theirs from DL) then there is likely liittle value in the aircraft. So if they are worth $4-5M on the open market and you owe $5-10M on them, then its not just as easy as parking them in the desert.

The important thing to remember is that the MD80s that AA is parking are owned outright. The same goes with NW and their DC9s. Back in the early 2000s, when the DC10s and 727s finally met their maker, they were almost all owned outright by their respective companies. Its pretty easy to park an aircraft that you owe nothing on.

Dont doubt for a second that the aircraft that are being parked are being brokered to anyone that will listen for single sales or large bulk sales. I guarantee you there is a whole department at AMR that is dedicated to that very purpose.


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8752 times:

My main train of thought was that the situation for AMR is more difficult than for almost all other regional jet operators because they have large quantities of the least attractive regional jets, i.e. 37 and 40 seaters. Almost all other airlines with large regional jet fleets exclusively operate 50 seaters. These are not extremely sought after at the moment as well, but are still more marketable than 37 0r 40 seaters.

That said, the question for me is whether or not there is a reasonably attractive second hand market for E135/E140s given that large numbers of CRJ200s and E145 are also on the market or will become available shortly.

Hence my question if AMR is in a particularly worrying situation if these birds are not fully paid for.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 6):
Dont doubt for a second that the aircraft that are being parked are being brokered to anyone that will listen for single sales or large bulk sales. I guarantee you there is a whole department at AMR that is dedicated to that very purpose.

Very true. But the question is what market is there for 120 E135/140s. The E140 is operated by no-one else and the E135 is a lame duck on the airline market, with virtually all sales in the recent past for the E135BJ. I can see some examples ending up as corporate shuttles or re-worked bizjets, but 120 example is a very large number to place.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8746 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 7):
My main train of thought was that the situation for AMR is more difficult than for almost all other regional jet operators because they have large quantities of the least attractive regional jets, i.e. 37 and 40 seaters. Almost all other airlines with large regional jet fleets exclusively operate 50 seaters. These are not extremely sought after at the moment as well, but are still more marketable than 37 0r 40 seaters.

they are in more trouble, thatI agree with, but I dont think 50 seaters at this point are any more marketable than 37-40 seaters


User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5239 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8654 times:



Quoting Bravo1Six (Reply 3):
Are they leased, financed or owned and fully paid for? Parking them in the desert gets a bit expensive unless they're paid for in full.

If they are flying them at a loss, then parking them would still save money. (ie no staff/fuel costs on top of the lease cost)


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8628 times:



Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 1):
Who said they were parking the 135's?

The Press Release they put out yesterday said they will be parking a number of American Eagle RJ's..... a strong guess would be that they will be the odd man out -135 or -140.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8603 times:

The ERJ-135 will most likely not survive as an airliner for very long.


However, the ERJ-135 would make a nice spiffy private jet. I would expect that is their underlying value. Those who are looking to buy ERJ-135s would be luxury charter operators, not airlines.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8580 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
However, the ERJ-135 would make a nice spiffy private jet

Maybe Embraer will even call it the Legacy....???



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8515 times:

FYI for those wanting AE's current fleet statistics (as of May 2008):

39 ERJ-135s
59 ERJ-140s ( which have 44 seats BTW, not 40)
108 ERJ-145s
25 CRJ-700s
35 Saab 340s
39 Super ATRs (ATR 72)

Total fleet: 305

Source: http://www.aa.com/content/amrcorp/co...orateInformation/facts/fleet.jhtml



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21525 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8112 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
However, the ERJ-135 would make a nice spiffy private jet. I would expect that is their underlying value. Those who are looking to buy ERJ-135s would be luxury charter operators, not airlines.

I was wondering if a jet-share company would consider picking them up and refitting them with luxury interiors. 12 seaters. Could EMB offer an aux fuel tank/winglet option to get 2500nm range?

But in reality, the 145XR is the one that may be better for this use. It has such superior range, it can be a 15 seat jet-share with transcon range.

But both are slow.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePlanenutok From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8040 times:

Even if there was a market for the 135/140s that eagle has, It would be hard to get rid of the high time aircraft. Most of them are already exceeding the number of cycles that they were originally designed for. They are becoming more and more maintenance intensive the more hours and cycles that they are racking up. Just my 2 cents.

User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7963 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
was wondering if a jet-share company would consider picking them up and refitting them with luxury interiors. 12 seaters. Could EMB offer an aux fuel tank/winglet option to get 2500nm range?

Doesn't ExpressJet have a few jets that are configured biz style?

Doesn't look like this is really an option unless, in addition to the CO/DL contracts, it's keeping ExpressJet afloat. I don't really see it happening, but I don't know it's not.

M


User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7816 times:

As an FO on the EMB for eagle, I can say eagle is parking the planes leased to TSA outta STL.

Talks are the LGA base will close and the 135's based up there will be sent to the desert.

They are also parking some Saabs.

The Embraers are all leased.

[Edited 2008-05-23 18:18:00]


Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7737 times:

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 17):

The Embraers are all leased

You need to read the certificate on the cockpit door.....all those I checked are owned by:

American Eagle Airlines
Fort Worth, TX

No, I did not check all of them... but all those I checked are American Eagle owned. I don't think they own them all though..........

[Edited 2008-05-23 18:37:21]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25330 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7670 times:

According to AA's 2007 annual report all AE equipment is owned with the exception of 8 Saabs that leased, all coincidentally whom have their leases expire in 2008.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7342 times:

What will happen at LAX, aren't all their ERJs 35/40s?

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25330 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7314 times:



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 20):
What will happen at LAX,

Potential AE route cuts are being discussed in its own thread which you can add to
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3994803/



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3395 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7140 times:



Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 16):
Doesn't ExpressJet have a few jets that are configured biz style?

No. All charter aircraft have the 50 seat configuration.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5574 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6802 times:

Are the 44 seaters able to be upgraded to 50 seaters with just a paperwork change/fee? Would it be worth it if they did it? Just curious, as I though that they were essentially the same aircraft, but certified for fewer passengers/lower MTOW or some such.

That may be like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but oh well...

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6578 times:



Quoting ANstar (Reply 9):
If they are flying them at a loss, then parking them would still save money. (ie no staff/fuel costs on top of the lease cost)

Uh...not necessarily, because...*no revenue either*. If they're losing money before capital cost, then you are right. If they're flying them at an overall loss, meaning that when combined with capital cost they lose money, they could lose less money by running them than by parking them. And it costs *additional* capital cost to fly the routes with other aircraft, so...


25 Ikramerica : They are 5 feet shorter, which is equal to 2 rows of 3, or 6 seats. So no, can't be done.
26 PlanesNTrains : Got it. Maybe I'm thinking of the CRJ440's - I believe that they were the same length as the CRJ100/200. But again, I could be wrong. -Dave
27 Lightsaber : Is there any market for
28 Vfw614 : Well, the market is not brilliant, but there are still sales of 2nd hand 50 seaters, while I doubt there will be any interest by airlines in the E135
29 BrianDromey : I think so. I remember reading that the AA scope clause put no limit on the number of Jet aircraft of less than 45 seats. Brian.
30 Lightsaber : Thank you. I didn't know about the Russian purchases. I had actually discounted that market (due to my perception that they would want more range tha
31 Vfw614 : Thanks. So my suspcion was correct Why didn't they simply put 44 seats in a E145 like others did with the CRJ200? This would have given them a more ma
32 Bravo1six : A CRJ440 is a CRJ200 with 44 seats. It can be reconfigured back to 50 seats.
33 CIDflyer : I thought they were starting to use some of those out of MIA now?
34 Orion737 : I always thoought the 135 and 140 to be unnecessary shrinks which should never have been manufactured. EMB Brasillias are as good for that job. I love
35 PC12Fan : No with the Embraer's, yes with the Bombardier's as they just reconfigured the aircraft.
36 CIDflyer : Will AAEagle replace any of those routes flown by TSA, or does this mean a pull down for the STL hub altogether?
37 Legacy135 : They are cheaper to operate than a 44-seater ERJ145. Embraer offered both versions to Eagle and they wanted it, so Embraer built it. It was a kind of
38 Ikramerica : We were talking about MQ's ERJ140s. MQ has no CRJ440s. That was brought up later. In theory, all sorts of things can be done to all sorts of planes i
39 Flyingbronco05 : They started foing MIA runs but the ALPA is fighting that it violates our contract and I believe the MIA runs have been returned to eagle. ALPA is fi
40 ElmoTheHobo : It's too bad that you can't just cut the plane in half, add a plug or two and turn an ERJ-135 or ERJ-140 into an ERJ-145. IIRC CRJ did that with the
41 MD-90 : You could but the cost would be uneconomical.
42 ElmoTheHobo : A few years back it would have been feasible, but with oil prices the way they are and the fact that no one wants ERJ-145s, I'd say that the day of t
43 PC12Fan : I'm aware of that, but there are CRJ's out there in which this is the case. Not all may know this. Besides, there are a lot of threads on A.net that
44 EMBQA : Kind of had to do when the CRJ 100/200 prototype crashed and was destroyed during flight testing.....and although the 100/200 and 700 look the same,
45 ElmoTheHobo : I got my numbers wrong. It was the CRJ-700 prototype that had plugs added to it to make the CRJ-900. Source: Regional Airlines (Airline World Special
46 MAH4546 : MIA runs start June 1st. They are still on schedule. ALPA needs to sit down, shut-up and deal, and live with the fact that management knows what they
47 Vfw614 : Two airlines operate the E140, American Eagle Airlines and Chautauqua Airlines. Both American Eagle Airlines and Chautauqua Airlines also operate the
48 Legacy135 : Regarding the resale value I would say that you're absolutely right, I do have the same feeling. What I could imagine, that those aircraft were calcu
49 TUSAA : No doubt Eagle has a rough few years ahead of them. The difference is AA is replacing some of it's MD-80's with newer 737-823's, as where AE is not re
50 Rainmaker : They're all owned but happen to be encumbered until all debt is amortized. Like mortgaged really. However with this kind of structure you can't just
51 Cubsrule : AX still has plenty of flying at STL (as does CHQ) Why would AA get rid of the ATRs? Like the AB6s, there's not really a suitable replacement for the
52 Tornado82 : ExpressJet has a pretty large 135 fleet still flying for CO-Express, 30ish IIRC.
53 Vfw614 : I am surprised to hear that they apparently have already clocked up so many cycles. I seem to recall that the E145 family was not really designed as
54 Cubsrule : It's happening with early CRJ examples already. While the CRJ is ~4 years older (and is obviously a different airframe), that would suggest to me tha
55 Lightsaber : Unfortunately little chance of the E135/E140's surviving for much longer (with today's oil prices). I love the idea! The problem is that the current
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