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Did Air Canada Ever Own Or Operate DC10s?  
User currently offlineDC10sRULE From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 172 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4305 times:

Hello All,

I need confirmation of my suspicion that when Air Canada took over Canadian Airlines, they never operated the DC10s but instead disposed of them. Or, was there a time, even briefly after the takeover but prior to disposing of them that the DC10s were on the books belonging to Air Canada?

Any insight during this transitional period and the final time line for DC10 operations for CDN / ACA would be appreciated.

Thanks!
JA


Giggity-Giggity..!
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12632 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 4251 times:
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Aerotransport Databank says that AC never directly owned or operated DC-10s. They have operated a small fleet of MD-11Fs, but the TriStar was AC's trijet of choice.

Looking at Canadian Airlines fleet list at the same source, it looks as though all the DC-10s were disposed of before AC took over. I cannot be sure, because the disposal dates for a few of the DC-10s are missing.

http://www.aerotransport.org



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1661 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 4230 times:

The 767-300 replaced the DC-10 before the merger. Some were new, others were second hand.


AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4066 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 1):
Aerotransport Databank says that AC never directly owned or operated DC-10s. They have operated a small fleet of MD-11Fs, but the TriStar was AC's trijet of choice.

Looking at Canadian Airlines fleet list at the same source, it looks as though all the DC-10s were disposed of before AC took over. I cannot be sure, because the disposal dates for a few of the DC-10s are missing.

AC pretty much ended up being just like DL. The Tri-Star was also the DL wide-body of choice, and DL surprisingly dumped a good fleet of Western DC-10s shortly after the merger in 1987 (I think they got rid of the last one in 1990 or thereabouts). During the 1990s AC migrated increasingly towards Airbus and DL towards Boeing.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4060 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):

Air Canada had also the rare B74M and B744 after the Canadiens merger


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5054 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4040 times:

It really depends on when you consider the AC/CP merger occurred.

At the time of the merger ... 1999, CP was operating 10 DC-10-30s on a busy Pacific and Atlantic schedule. During the merger, and with respect to route or capacity overlap, the DC-10s were the first to be retired. However, with the newly acquired Pacific routes achieved in the merger, AC still needed the widebody capacity.

Therefore, they continued to fly until early 2001. Technically, this was within Air Canada. However, they never wore the Air Canada name nor paint scheme. Also, they were operated under a "waiver operating certificate" from Canadi>n.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineJohnclipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4003 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 1):
They have operated a small fleet of MD-11Fs, but the TriStar was AC's trijet of choice.

The MD-11Fs were never operated by AC, they were ACMI leases from WO.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10511 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

Interestingly enough, some of those DC-10's that CP Air and Canadien were operating were the original 10's that DL bought and operated in the early 70's.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5054 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Quoting Mayor (Reply 7):
Interestingly enough, some of those DC-10's that CP Air and Canadien were operating were the original 10's that DL bought and operated in the early 70's.


After a bit of digging, because I didn't think this was correct, you are right!

MSN 47966, 47968 and 47969 were N602DA, N604DA and N605DA, which became N1834U, N1836U and N1837U, of United Airlines.

These were exchanged with some CP DC-10-30s from 1983 to 1987. Alas, they never flew in the Canadi>n paint scheme.

[Edited 2008-05-26 11:18:53]


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineDC10sRULE From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3541 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 5):
It really depends on when you consider the AC/CP merger occurred.

At the time of the merger ... 1999, CP was operating 10 DC-10-30s on a busy Pacific and Atlantic schedule. During the merger, and with respect to route or capacity overlap, the DC-10s were the first to be retired. However, with the newly acquired Pacific routes achieved in the merger, AC still needed the widebody capacity.

Therefore, they continued to fly until early 2001. Technically, this was within Air Canada. However, they never wore the Air Canada name nor paint scheme. Also, they were operated under a "waiver operating certificate" from Canadi>n.

Longhauler - you hit my query on the head. This was the time period I was confused about.

I know they definitely never wore the AC paint scheme but I was concerned about the DC10 status "on paper".

Thanks for that!!
JA



Giggity-Giggity..!
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10511 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3393 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 8):
MSN 47966, 47968 and 47969 were N602DA, N604DA and N605DA, which became N1834U, N1836U and N1837U, of United Airlines.

Actually, DL bought, sold to UA and leased them back from UA as an interim solution until the Tristars arrived. I flew down to ATL one weekend from ORD on a DC-10 and came back on a L-1011. I believe this was in '75.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSWABrian From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 299 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3157 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
AC pretty much ended up being just like DL. The Tri-Star was also the DL wide-body of choice, and DL surprisingly dumped a good fleet of Western DC-10s shortly after the merger in 1987 (I think they got rid of the last one in 1990 or thereabouts). During the 1990s AC migrated increasingly towards Airbus and DL towards Boeing

I'm not sure why you say surprisingly. Take a look at the DL fleet after the WA merger. The airline was flying 727s, 737-200s, 737-300s, 757, 767, DC-8-71, DC-9, DC-10, MD-88, L1011-1, L1011-250, and L1011-500.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2957 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 5):
Therefore, they continued to fly until early 2001. Technically, this was within Air Canada. However, they never wore the Air Canada name nor paint scheme. Also, they were operated under a "waiver operating certificate" from Canadi>n.

If not mistaken CP operated their last DC-10 flights in March 2000. They were also a separate legal entity until January 1, 2001 and I believe the operating certificates weren't merged until slightly later. I'm almost certain no DC-10s were operated in 2001.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2377 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2822 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 10):
Actually, DL bought, sold to UA and leased them back from UA as an interim solution until the Tristars arrived.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  This is true, although often left out and/or not well known. Good job.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
DL surprisingly dumped a good fleet of Western DC-10s shortly after the merger in 1987

Well DL had plenty of domestic Tristars and began acquiring more, along with second hand -500s around the same time of the merger. This made the DC-10 an unnecessary oddball.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2248 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

If I remember correctly the DC10's never got the last paint scheme of Canadian before the merger. I don't ever recall seeing the goose livery on them. I actually liked the goose livery but it may have been odd on the DC10's if they had still been in the fleet.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2748 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
If I remember correctly the DC10's never got the last paint scheme of Canadian before the merger. I don't ever recall seeing the goose livery on them

As far as I know only 18 Canadian and Canadian Regional aircraft appeared in that livery (2 744, 5 763, 3 A320, 4 732, 2 F-28, 2 Dash 8-300) before merger developments stopped further repainting.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5054 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2696 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
If not mistaken CP operated their last DC-10 flights in March 2000. They were also a separate legal entity until January 1, 2001 and I believe the operating certificates weren't merged until slightly later. I'm almost certain no DC-10s were operated in 2001.

The last DC-10 pilot block was issued in June 2001. All blocks in 2001 were reserve blocks, as no DC-10 flights were scheduled past Christmas 2000. However there were many equipment substitutions until the middle of June. I will check, and find out the actual last DC-10 flight at CP/AC.

The main reason the OCs were not merged at that time was Transport Canada Air Carriers was on strike and the "paperwork" was backing up. It is also why the B737s were operated with Canadi>n SOPs and not AC SOPs, as the manuals could not be approved.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineThunder747 From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

What happened to Canadi>ns "SIGNATURE" DC10 that was so eloquently portrayed in their telelvision ads with employees signing the craft. Where has this ship ended up and has any other airline done anything similar. Personally I was always quite moved when I would see that ship. Canadi>n you are missed!


I love to FLY and it shows!
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 776 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

Isn't the AC 65th anniversary livery composed of the names of all their employees at the time? Not their signatures, but pretty similar idea.


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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2246 times:



Quoting Thunder747 (Reply 17):
What happened to Canadi>ns "SIGNATURE" DC10 that was so eloquently portrayed in their telelvision ads with employees signing the craft. Where has this ship ended up

Unfortunately it was scrapped in 2004 after spending a few years in the desert.


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User currently offlineXaphan From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 129 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Not to take the theme of the thread away for AC, but Delta at one time operated all US widebodies. Never publicly stating which was the best, they nevertheless returned the DC 10-10s to UA as soon as enought TriStars were on hand. Originally ordering 3 747-132s, they went back and ordered two more. Two of them flew the "redeye" from LAX and SFO to ATL, and were almost always full or ear to it. These were the days of military stand-bytickets and youth fares. Non-revs could be counted on to fill up the rest of the seats. In winter months, ORD-MIA and DTW-MIA would go almost full as well. At one point ORD had three DL widebody flights, and they were one of each (747, DC 10, and L-1011). I believe Delta honestly thought the TriStar was the superior plane for their operations.

User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10511 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2010 times:



Quoting Xaphan (Reply 20):
Not to take the theme of the thread away for AC, but Delta at one time operated all US widebodies. Never publicly stating which was the best, they nevertheless returned the DC 10-10s to UA as soon as enought TriStars were on hand. Originally ordering 3 747-132s, they went back and ordered two more. Two of them flew the "redeye" from LAX and SFO to ATL, and were almost always full or ear to it. These were the days of military stand-bytickets and youth fares. Non-revs could be counted on to fill up the rest of the seats. In winter months, ORD-MIA and DTW-MIA would go almost full as well. At one point ORD had three DL widebody flights, and they were one of each (747, DC 10, and L-1011). I believe Delta honestly thought the TriStar was the superior plane for their operations.

At one time DL at ORD had three 747 flights......ORD-ATL, ORD-MIA and ORD-ATL-JAX.

I once read that the pilots really loved the Tristar. Said it was a real pilot's airplane.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
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