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AF-KLM Interested In Austrian Airlines  
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1916 posts, RR: 8
Posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8843 times:

According to a small article on http://www.nu.nl/news/1583148/32/%27...seerd_in_Austrian_Airlines%27.html (Dutch only), AF-KLM is looking at Austrian Airlines.

According to nu.nl, this news was brought by French paper La Tribune today, citing sources within the company.

Looks like Austrian Airlines is in the picture as Lufthansa has also been looking at the airline.

What do you all think? Can Austrian Airlines be of benefit to the AF-KLM group?

Cheers!  wave 


Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8839 times:

I still think TP with it's Brazilian network is a better fit. IIRC the Portuguese government was also looking at privatization. Anyway, Austrian is also not without it's troubles, but may be of benefit to AFKL as LX with LH. Although IIRC Austrian has a much smaller network than LX, and Austria has less business traffic than LX.

This one is tough. IMHO, Austrian doesn't add much to the AFKL network, but I'd love to be proven wrong...



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8824 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
I still think TP with it's Brazilian network is a better fit. IIRC the Portuguese government was also looking at privatization. Anyway, Austrian is also not without it's troubles, but may be of benefit to AFKL as LX with LH. Although IIRC Austrian has a much smaller network than LX, and Austria has less business traffic than LX.

This one is tough. IMHO, Austrian doesn't add much to the AFKL network, but I'd love to be proven wrong

I agree TAP is a nice fit with AF/KL opening a secondary hub in the South of Europe. However, I think LH would also dispute TAP, right?


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8784 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):

This one is tough. IMHO, Austrian doesn't add much to the AFKL network, but I'd love to be proven wrong...

OS has a strong network to Eastern Europe that might be highly beneficial to AF/KL as their presence isn't that strong there while it is a growth market. As a lot of (ex-) eastern european countries join the EU this is only set to increase and might bring OS (with AF/KL) a lot of extra passengers.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8793 times:

To be honest. I don't really see how LH is interested in OS. If you are not really in the industry Austrian seems like a pretty logical takeover candidate for LH, A*, Central Europe,..... HOWEVER i would disagree. For me there are at least 3-4 airlines which would make much more sense, and less trouble for LH. Just look at the hubs of LH if they would take over Austrian. They would have Munich, Zurich and Vienna, pretty close to each other.
If at least Austrian would offer something network wise that LH doesn't have yet, at least, but they don't. Austrians l/h network is nothing to write home. In addition it is at best marginally profitable.
The only strenght Austrian has is its presence in Easter Europe, however LH is doing pretty well in that market already, specially from Munich. If they only would have a strong presence by flights from FRA but not MUC one could think about it, but not that way. I personally can't see Austrian been taken over by LH. Go for BMI, Tap, Iberia, Brussels.........

For AF it would make much more sense, as they could expand in Eastern Europe.

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8735 times:



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 4):

I absolutely agree with your post.

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 4):
They would have Munich, Zurich and Vienna, pretty close to each other.

To be correct and a little picky: ZRH is much closer to FRA than to VIE (ZRH-FRA: 285 km; ZRH-VIE: 605 km; according to the Great Circle Map).


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8732 times:



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 4):
To be honest. I don't really see how LH is interested in OS. If you are not really in the industry Austrian seems like a pretty logical takeover candidate for LH, A*, Central Europe,..... HOWEVER i would disagree. For me there are at least 3-4 airlines which would make much more sense, and less trouble for LH. Just look at the hubs of LH if they would take over Austrian. They would have Munich, Zurich and Vienna, pretty close to each other.
If at least Austrian would offer something network wise that LH doesn't have yet, at least, but they don't. Austrians l/h network is nothing to write home. In addition it is at best marginally profitable.
The only strenght Austrian has is its presence in Easter Europe, however LH is doing pretty well in that market already, specially from Munich. If they only would have a strong presence by flights from FRA but not MUC one could think about it, but not that way. I personally can't see Austrian been taken over by LH. Go for BMI, Tap, Iberia, Brussels.........

For AF it would make much more sense, as they could expand in Eastern Europe.

I agree- for LH a company like TAP would be absolutely great and enhance their network tremendously !
AF should go for AUA- on-top,the Austrians don't like the idea too much to be "nationalized" a second time  Wink ..
There is no essential need for LH to add another hub just 250 miles east of MUC..they cover most of the eastern-european destinations by themselves and the missing ones can be added easily.
Even SN with their African destinations and BRU airport would be more interesting than AUA...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8702 times:

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 5):
To be correct and a little picky: ZRH is much closer to FRA than to VIE (ZRH-FRA: 285 km; ZRH-VIE: 605 km; according to the Great Circle Map).

I know that, living in Munich, one could add that its about the same time to get from here to Vienna as it is to FRA. But i think the main reason why LH will not go for OS is that they don't offer anything LH does not offer already expect problems in terms of profibility (they are having quite some troubles being proiftable). The distance from their hubs is just another fact that makes it more unlikely.

GlobeEx

[Edited 2008-05-26 03:14:08]


As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8649 times:

OS and AF could be a good fit, but there a re certain obstacles to overcome and questions to be answered.

- AF has to take a majority share in OS to turn them around. A codeshare or cooperation would not be enough as OS can't survive on its own.

- AF has to bail out OS out of Star and Miles&More. They have to evaluate the costs involved in both, especially loosing all its best clients to M&M.

- LH would pull off all strings in making MUC their prime Eastern European hub. So far LH and MUC are a friendly competitor to OS, what would be the impact of them becoming a fierce enemy?

So if AF is willing to take full control over OS I would say it is a good solution and brings more competition to Eastern Europe.
But if you compare AF and the other most likely partner LH, AF would have to invest much more than LH. Also the outcome for AF would be much more doubtful than for LH. So is AF really willing to invest much more than LH. I have my doubts, especially since OS is a very safe bet for LH.
It would certainly help AF's case if Austria sticks to its policy anybody but the 'piefkes'. But if Austria wants to get as much money from an OS sale, LH would be the safer bet.


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1287 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8649 times:

Sounds indeed like a good niche candidate for AFKL. I don't think it offers much to LH as pointed by many posters.

It could however also make a lot of sense for BA, that is if they are interested at anything else than LHR.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8624 times:



Quoting JoFMO (Reply 8):
But if you compare AF and the other most likely partner LH, AF would have to invest much more than LH. Also the outcome for AF would be much more doubtful than for LH.

Yet the potential gain for AF is much higher than for LH (for the reasons outlined above).



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8563 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
on-top,the Austrians don't like the idea too much to be "nationalized" a second time

especially when when an Austrian is at the helm again......  Wink

Quoting JRadier (Reply 10):

Yet the potential gain for AF is much higher than for LH (for the reasons outlined above).

Not naturally. AF would take over an OS in a heavily contested market with an bullish LH in MUC.

In contrast LH would get over OS and have a near monopoly with some minor competitors in the like of OK and Malev.

Would could be a cash cow for LH might only be marginally profitable for AF. But in terms of competition the solution AF+OS would be a good one.


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8532 times:

Latest news in the German economic newspaper Handelsblatt is that the Austrian state holding OeIAG that is the majority owner of OS has given the airline an order to evaluate a privatization.

So the game begins......


User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8491 times:

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 11):
Would could be a cash cow for LH might only be marginally profitable for AF. But in terms of competition the solution AF+OS would be a good one.

Well arguable which airline weather AF or LH would get more money out of LH (eventhough I do have an opinion on that) the real question here is who's network would OS compliment the best and that is without a question AF. In general , (even though LH will not take over OS, but IF) AF should be willing to pay a much higher price. They extend their own network in Eastern Europe by a not to underestimating bit and in addition the sky team presence in EE. ( and of course "steal" a A* member) Obviously they have Aero Flot in Sky, but lets be honest. A* passengers coming from Europe, and the Americas connect to LH or OS but in Sky Team they would (in my guess) have most of the passengers for them self. Lets be honest, an American going to Belgrade, will he chose OS or Aero Flot.... I would guess 95% of the passengers would feel more comfortable in an OS plane than in a Aero Flot plane, even if it would be an A320 in both cases similar service etc.
In my opinion Sky Team would suit OS far better. At the moment OS has to share their A* EE passengers with LH and Lot. In Sky Team they would get a far bigger slice.

GlobeEx

[Edited 2008-05-26 04:00:02]

[Edited 2008-05-26 04:00:46]


As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineMacc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 1026 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

I can only hope the bird will go to LH. Its actually a quite comforatble situation for passengers at the moment, having a strong network to eastern europe from homebase and MUC as a hub for the world close to it.

Changing this to CDG or AMS does not provide any advantage in my opinion. Competition is no big argument as it would not change much.



I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
User currently offlineFiatstilojtd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8407 times:

The funny thing is that when you go back in history AF already was very interested in OS, but then OS joined LH leading Miles & More instead of Skyteam.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 12):
So the game begins......

Exactly.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8382 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
I think LH would also dispute TAP, right?

No doubt, especially being a *A member. IMHO TP would be of interest to several airlines in Europe, mainly AFKL, LH and BA (as these are the airlines doing the takeovers and BA as I understand is also looking around)

Quoting JRadier (Reply 3):
OS has a strong network to Eastern Europe that might be highly beneficial to AF/KL as their presence isn't that strong there while it is a growth market. As a lot of (ex-) eastern european countries join the EU this is only set to increase and might bring OS (with AF/KL) a lot of extra passengers.

OK thanks, I did not know about the Eastern European network. In that case, wouldn't an airline like CSA also be a nice candidate in that respect? OK is of course also a ST member, which could also help.



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User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7612 times:

Rather than discussing AF-KL's interest, which is entirely legitimate, as they want to expand and for such, need to look at all options, I am wondering why LH is having the strategy to focus -and obtain monopoly, pretty much- on all german-speaking countries flag carriers... Wouldn't more geographical and cultural diversity make more sense. It seems that the options in the German-Swiss-Austrian market are becoming rather low, all carriers are already Star Alliance. 4 hubs all within Central-Western Europe are a bit repetitive as opposed to the initial CDG-AMS-FCO plan of AF-KL, or CDG-AMS-LIS or CDG-AMS-VIE to some extent.


When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7413 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 17):
Wouldn't more geographical and cultural diversity make more sense.

Geographical, YES, cultural probably not, as the cultures are more similar, and therefore it might be easier to integrate those companies. If LH would takeover Iberia for example. Network wise that would definately make a lot of sense. On the other side it might be much more challenging as there are just pretty different philosophies colliding. However, in the Iberia case the geographical / network argument would be much heavier, whereas in OS's case the cultural point would apply, but the network point is close to not existing.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 17):
I am wondering why LH is having the strategy to focus -and obtain monopoly, pretty much- on all german-speaking countries flag carriers

They don't have that strategy. They took over LX, because they got a good deal. As I see it, LH obviously looked at OS, but I don't think they do have any real interest in buying them.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 17):
It seems that the options in the German-Swiss-Austrian market are becoming rather low, all carriers are already Star Alliance

Well, lets see where the AB story will lead. I think we will see them in an alliance within the next 5, max 10 years. My bet would be Oneworld IF they manage to establish a good business product. Could they become a bigger player, YES, as successful as LH within the next 15 years, (definately) NO.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 17):
4 hubs all within Central-Western Europe are a bit repetitive

That WOULD be. Is this going to happen? Most definately NOT.

[Edited 2008-05-26 09:31:20]


As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7401 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5247 times:



Quoting LifelinerOne (Thread starter):
Can Austrian Airlines be of benefit to the AF-KLM group?

Definately : YES.

But it would be also a benefit for LH.

The future of all those small/medium sized airlines like OS, SK, SN, etc ... is to grow "under the wing" of one of the "Big 3" (AFKL, LHLX, BA). Only the Italians can believe that Alitalia will grow an conquer the World by its own...
VIE is an important gateway to Eastern Europe, a market where AF is still "weaker" than LH. That's also why AF sponsored Tarom for SkyTeam to offer, beside CSA and PRG another potential market.

I could see in a medium term OK and OS merged into AFKL ... That would be something !

 bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineIcna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5077 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
OK and OS merged into AFKL

Now that would be a bit of overlap, wouldn't it? What are the Czechs going to respond to that, as it seems they are the ones to take all the drawbacks of OS in Skyteam...


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8525 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5033 times:
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I am curious how much it would cost OS to disentangle itself from Miles and More - I would think that M&M would have a great deal of info built up about OS top tier frequent flyers in which case LH/LX could make a concerted effort to woo them if OS decided to leave . I was also under the impression that OS res is hosted in LHs system - again , not an easy ( or cheap ) thing to disentangle . Apart from the JFK service all OS North American services are to hubs/connection points of Star partners ( ORD , IAD , YYZ , YUL ) not an insurmountable obstacle of course , but again something that would make any switch of alliance disruptive and expensive - in the current crisis are any airlines in a position to gamble on expensive changes if they are not sure that they will reap any benefit from them ?


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSkippy777 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2001, 815 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

If So AF KLM got a conncetion to Australia

Nobody form the Skyteam is flying to Australia

Ok Korean Air but what a connection from europe


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4547 times:



Quoting Skippy777 (Reply 22):
If So AF KLM got a conncetion to Australia

Nobody form the Skyteam is flying to Australia

KLM however connects to MH in KUL for flights to Australia.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1916 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4537 times:



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 18):
Geographical, YES, cultural probably not, as the cultures are more similar, and therefore it might be easier to integrate those companies.

Well, French and Dutch cultures aren't alike either and I think the new AF-KLM proves that it can be done. I think AF-KLM is looking to OS (and rumours say also OK) to strengthen their Eastern-European base. I do think however that it will be either OS or OK, not both.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
25 RedChili : Except KE and CO. Korean is actually a good alternative from Europe. The great circle distances from AMS to SYD are: via ICN: 9117 nm via BKK: 9028 n
26 Burkhard : I think that AFKL will go for OK, their bounds are long term. AF and LH are in a peaceful competition up to now - they know that a real battle both si
27 SwissA330 : Well, they cannot just agree - they will most probably try to increase the bid in order to at least make it more expensive for the other one... (like
28 Lexer : I think that, more and more, cultural differences become less of a factor, particularly when companies come from the same region, i.c. europe. The co
29 GlobeEx : That all sounds like I said that it is impossible to integrate a foreign company. I did not say that at all. The question was only if it would be Bet
30 Viscount724 : And AF has good codeshare connections with QF via both SIN and HKG.
31 Connector4you : Malev Hungarian is representing the interest of Oneworld in Central and Eastern Europe at Budapest Ferihegy AF-KLM activity in Eastern Europe is limi
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