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Slow 747-8I Sales Not A Concern For Lufthansa  
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8765 times:

Hope this is not discussed before:

Quote:

German flag carrier Lufthansa is unconcerned about its continuing status as the only confirmed airline customer for the passenger version of the Boeing 747-8, insisting that freighter conversion potential means the aircraft will hold its value.
...
Slow sales of the 747-8I have not prompted a rethink at the German airline. Lufthansa chief executive Wolfgang Mayrhuber says the carrier is "not at all" bothered about its lonely position, pointing to the airline's experience with 747s and the type's enduring appeal as a freighter.
"We could operate the [747-8] for 20 or 30 years and then use them as freighters," he says. "They will retain their value."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-not-a-concern-for-lufthansa.html

Just to put an end on all the discussions if LH would cancel its 7478Is.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8656 times:

I'm glad we have some sort of confirmation that LH won't cancel their 748I order. That was getting really old hearing that. Wolfgang Mayrhuber also confirmed what many hear felt how LH saw their 748s.....great passenger VLAs for their niche, then a great converted freighter in the future. All in all, I'm satisfied that LH has no intention of canceling their order or converting it to the 748F.  thumbsup 


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30523 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8573 times:
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I know some want the 747-8I to die not because they hate Boeing or the 747, but because if it is canceled then it proves the superiority of the A380-800 in a way even a current ~10:1 sales advantage can't.

And because LH is a major and respected airline (and an A388 customer), they cannot be dismissed as a third-rate carrier (like is being tossed at Arik Air and TG before they decided against it - now they're suddenly a Tier One airline again) and therefore their 747-8I purchase cannot be dismissed, either.

Personally, I wonder if once the 747-8I enters service with LH and starts making them money, the focus of articles will be not why LH bought the 747-8I, but why other major airlines didn't.

[Edited 2008-05-29 09:05:43]

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8518 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Personally, I wonder if once the 747-8I enters service with LH and starts making them money, the focus of articles will be not why LH bought the 747-8I, but why other major airlines didn't.

Agreed ! I really believe LH will show that they made a smart move with the 7478I and the A380.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21471 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8489 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
20:1

You mean the 8:1 advantage? Last time I checked, there weren't 500 A380 sales, though hopefully it gets there.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30523 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8474 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
You mean the 8:1 advantage? Last time I checked, there weren't 500 A380 sales, though hopefully it gets there.

 sigh  I meant 10:1, of course (~200 to 20).  embarrassed 


User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8455 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
third-rate carrier (like is being tossed at Arik Air and TG before they decided against i

So you really think Thai is a third-rate airline?

Apart from that, in general I think now canceling the the 748 wouldn't make any economy sense for Boeing. Probably even the 20 aircrafts ordered by Lufthansa will be sufficent to cover the developing costs of the 748 as most of the R&D is needed for the freighter version anyway. Even if it doesn't cover the cost completly it would probably be cheaper to deliver those twenty (even if no more will be ordered) as compensation and the loss in terms of marketing and image would prove more expensive.

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8422 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Personally, I wonder if once the 747-8I enters service with LH and starts making them money, the focus of articles will be not why LH bought the 747-8I, but why other major airlines didn't.

That did not happen with in regards to the A346. But knowing how this forum works you might be quite right.


User currently offlineBanjo76 From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8424 times:



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Hope this is not discussed before:

Quote:

German flag carrier Lufthansa is unconcerned about its continuing status as the only confirmed airline customer for the passenger version of the Boeing 747-8, insisting that freighter conversion potential means the aircraft will hold its value.
...
Slow sales of the 747-8I have not prompted a rethink at the German airline. Lufthansa chief executive Wolfgang Mayrhuber says the carrier is "not at all" bothered about its lonely position, pointing to the airline's experience with 747s and the type's enduring appeal as a freighter.
"We could operate the [747-8] for 20 or 30 years and then use them as freighters," he says. "They will retain their value."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-not-a-concern-for-lufthansa.html

Just to put an end on all the discussions if LH would cancel its 7478Is.

Sorry but to me this sounds like women replies:
Yes = No
No = Yes
I have to think about it = No

I see no reason why LH should confirm their interest for the 748I, they have oredered it (and paid for), that should be the confirmation itself.
The fact that they feel the urge to say so may be because actually they're thinking about canceling and they don't want to be bothered meanwhile, it's quite of a basic PR technique.

And you don't buy a VLA because if it is a non profitable A/C you can convert it in a good freighter.
You buy it because you think that profit is gonna be generated right away. The fact that you can convert it is only an incentive, not a reason for purchase (BTW conversion will cost a good bunch of $ lowering their ROI in case they have to go for freighter conversion for non profitable pax operations).

Just an opinion of course.

Banjo


User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8354 times:



Quoting Banjo76 (Reply 8):

I see no reason why LH should confirm their interest for the 748I, they have oredered it (and paid for), that should be the confirmation itself.

On the other side, they are a public company listed at the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. Sometimes if there is a bigger interest from stake and or shareholders concerning a bigger investment companies are sometimes almost urged to give a statement.

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8264 times:



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 9):
On the other side, they are a public company listed at the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. Sometimes if there is a bigger interest from stake and or shareholders concerning a bigger investment companies are sometimes almost urged to give a statement.

Agreed, LH has been asked several times how they feel about the 747 -8I and they just answered these questions.
It is not like LH tells everybody who wants to hear about their 747 order. They did the same when asked about the A380 delay and the A346.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8206 times:



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Lufthansa chief executive Wolfgang Mayrhuber says the carrier is "not at all" bothered about its lonely position, pointing to the airline's experience with 747s and the type's enduring appeal as a freighter.

Mayrhuber did not say that Lufthansa won't cancel, he just said that he is not bothered.
I believe Lufthansa is in a very comfortable position with the 748i. They can only win and Boeing can only loose.

That said I believe that we will see the 748i in Lufthansa's colours.

Rob


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3602 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8190 times:



Quoting Banjo76 (Reply 8):
Sorry but to me this sounds like women replies:
Yes = No
No = Yes
I have to think about it = No

I see no reason why LH should confirm their interest for the 748I, they have oredered it (and paid for), that should be the confirmation itself.
The fact that they feel the urge to say so may be because actually they're thinking about canceling and they don't want to be bothered meanwhile, it's quite of a basic PR technique.

So your position is that she should have answered "yes, we are concerned", which would have meant "no, we are not concerned"?

Does this make sense to anyone else?

The article wouldn't have been written if somebody hadn't asked the question. How would you propose Lufthansa answer the question if they actually are unconcerned?



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21471 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8000 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
It is not like LH tells everybody who wants to hear about their 747 order.

It's not like good old Chewy who badmouths the 748i to whoever asks him about it.  Smile

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 12):
How would you propose Lufthansa answer the question if they actually are unconcerned?

No comment? Because we all know that that REALLY clears the record of confusion…  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30523 posts, RR: 84
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7801 times:
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Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 6):
So you really think Thai is a third-rate airline?

Absolutely not. But when TG was reported to have committed to order the 747-8I in addition - or even in replacement of - their A380-800 order, I recall some folks saying "Well TG's fleet planning is a mess and they don't know what they're doing so no wonder they're buying a handful of each of two competing VLAs".

Now that TG has said they have no interest in buying the 747-8I, some of those same folks are now placing TG on the same pedestal of "Airline Insight Brilliance" of SQ and QF, whom also have dismissed (and disparaged) the 747-8I.



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 6):
Apart from that, in general I think now canceling the the 748 wouldn't make any economy sense for Boeing.

It won't. When LH committed, Boeing threw an additional $300 million towards the program to make it happen over what they have already spent.



Quoting JoFMO (Reply 7):
That did not happen with in regards to the A346. But knowing how this forum works you might be quite right.

And yet, for many carriers, the A340-600 made perfect sense as a 747-400 replacement. The A340-600 entered service before the 777-300ER did and the 777-300ER was not as good during development as it ended up being during testing, so I can understand some airlines hedging their bets and taking the A340-600, especially if they already flew the A330 and/or A340. Also, some airlines were effected by ETOPS (either because it crimped their routings or their home authorities would not grant it as easily as the FAA did).



Quoting Banjo76 (Reply 8):
The fact that they feel the urge to say so may be because actually they're thinking about canceling and they don't want to be bothered meanwhile, it's quite of a basic PR technique.

When the A388 was late to revenue service, everyone was asking SQ and QF why they didn't play it safe with the 747-8I like LH did. Now that the plane is in revenue service and making them money (for SQ and soon to be for QF) , nobody asks them anymore.

With the 747-8I only having one airline customer and still not in revenue service, everyone is asking LH why they ordered it and the A388 and not just stick with the A388. When the plane is in revenue service and making LH money, nobody will ask them anymore.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7801 times:



Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 11):
They can only win and Boeing can only loose.

Really??? So if LH indeed takes their 20 748I aircraft and possible some of their 20 options, Boeing loses???  ConfusedCare to explain your reasoning?



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7739 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
Really??? So if LH indeed takes their 20 748I aircraft and possible some of their 20 options, Boeing loses???

Sorry for not being clearer. I tried to say that Lufthansa is in a much better situtation with regards to any potential or anticipated or planed changes then Boeing is.

As said before, I believe we will see the 748i flying for Lufthansa, even though I'm not so sure whether they will excercise their options.

Rob


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7544 times:



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
We could operate the [747-8] for 20 or 30 years and then use them as freighters,"

So exactly who is stupid enough to develop the conversion knowing there are only 20 candidate aircraft and they are going to lose money doing it?



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21471 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7518 times:



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 17):
So exactly who is stupid enough to develop the conversion knowing there are only 20 candidate aircraft and they are going to lose money doing it?

How many Belugas are there? 747LCFs? 747 Space Shuttle transports? If the economics work out for both parties, you can develop conversions for very small fleets.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8394 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7496 times:



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 17):
So exactly who is stupid enough to develop the conversion

I can imagine Boeing, off hand.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7461 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Absolutely not. But when TG was reported to have committed to order the 747-8I in addition - or even in replacement of - their A380-800 order, I recall some folks saying "Well TG's fleet planning is a mess and they don't know what they're doing so no wonder they're buying a handful of each of two competing VLAs".

Now that TG has said they have no interest in buying the 747-8I, some of those same folks are now placing TG on the same pedestal of "Airline Insight Brilliance" of SQ and QF, whom also have dismissed (and disparaged) the 747-8I.

Yes indeed, but to be completely fair Stitch you need to recall that it was certain Boeing cheerleaders who actually started the nonsense about 'Tier 1 and 2 airlines' etc., etc. and then tried to distance themselves from it.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7357 times:



Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 16):
Sorry for not being clearer. I tried to say that Lufthansa is in a much better situtation with regards to any potential or anticipated or planed changes then Boeing is.

As said before, I believe we will see the 748i flying for Lufthansa, even though I'm not so sure whether they will excercise their options.

No worries. Since you've cleared that up, I agree with what you're saying....but i'd like to see LH exercise all of their options. I know LH hinted around before that they could take as many as 50 of the 748Is.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7274 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
I know LH hinted around before that they could take as many as 50 of the 748Is.

I'm somehow surprised by that big number.
Currently they have 30 744.

They have on order (according to Wikipedia):
748i: 20
A388: 15
A346: 5

That's an increase of 30 percent, the jump must be even biggen looking at the number of seats.

And their 744 are not that old.

Rob


User currently offlineWarren747sp From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7220 times:

Once again Pat Leahy is wrong proclaiming in public that the 748 will never enter passenger service. Go LH and the 748 passenger model. May many more orders materialize before end of year.


747SP
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6884 times:



Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 22):
I'm somehow surprised by that big number.
Currently they have 30 744.

I don't disagree. And we also have to include their 380s they have on order, which would be an enormous increase in capacity. But right now they're sitting with 20 firm 748I and not the 50 that has been hinted around about. I feel pretty confident in LH's fleet planning. They seem to have done very well so far, and without a lot of wide-body twins!!  checkmark 



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
25 Stitch : Very true. And their shenanigans annoy me to no end, as well.
26 Pnwtraveler : For all the benefits of the internet, it also gives a voice to everyone who can hunt and peck type and find an internet cafe. Most of the time that is
27 WingedMigrator : The Senator from Vermont works for Airbus now?
28 SeaBosDca : Keep posting anyway. We need some strong signal to balance out the noise.
29 Columba : The same that convert 747-200s and -400s right now the difference won´t be that big. But they are on their way when the first A380s and 747-8Is arri
30 PC12Fan : Finally. Well, if they are so worried that it is inferior, why would a carrier that has the A380 already on order also order the 748i? Stupid? Hardly
31 Banjo76 : 1st of all my position is that LH will not cancel the order, but from a communication standpoint a better reply to the question would have been: "Yes
32 Post contains links Keesje : In theory the additional development costs for the 747-8i (cabin, wiring, plugs, certification, airco, setting up dedicated production/supply lines/a
33 Pnwtraveler : LH isn't going to tailor their statements just for forums like these. Maybe they have read some of he statements on here and don't think they are wort
34 Danny : So LH is now talking about "freighter conversion" which can be read as a conversion at the end of life as a passenger aircraft or conversion of order
35 EA772LR : No LH clearly said "We could operate the [747-8] for 20 or 30 years and then use them as freighters," he says. "They will retain their value." I take
36 Keesje : People tend to believe the 8i will be an easy add-on the the very successful 747-8F. I tend to believe Boeing sold 80 freighters since they started pu
37 EA772LR : I have read as of late that many operators are not that happy with the 744BCF as it has a lower payload capability, and no nose door. If LH was inter
38 Jacobin777 : If they were so "desperate" as you inappropriately put it, they would have lowered the price for BA. Speaking of "lowering prices", funny LH purchase
39 Ikramerica : That is what happens to 747s. Other planes may fly, then leave the fleet and sit in the desert. But 747s fly as pax planes, and then 15-30 years late
40 Virgin747LGW : maybe BA didnt want the 747-8i no matter the cost? How else do you explain the more expensive 777 blowing the A340 out of the water?
41 SeaBosDca : The 744BCF is not really a competitor to the 747-8F... more of a competitor to MD-11Fs, and to 777-200ERFs once they start appearing in a few years.
42 Keesje : Maybe, but DC8, DC9, DC10, MD11, 707, 727, 737, 757, 767, A300, 310 and soon A320 and / B777 / A330 / A340 were / are converted to freighters too. No
43 Jacobin777 : Not in this case mate....Two weeks before the BA announcement, it was a clean Boeing sweep. While true for the most part, price was the factor which
44 SeaBosDca : First of all, you seem to be mixing up the 744F and the 744BCF (or other conversions). Second, the converted freighters don't have the same capabilit
45 Stitch : Maybe. Maybe not. But they certainly would like to sell more, regardless. Like Airbus with the A380-800F, Boeing has sunk most of the costs of the 74
46 Post contains links Keesje : No, the A380 was seen by many (incl. me) as the favourite. The costs / gains / consequences are so much bigger then just initial purchasing price. BA
47 Jacobin777 : I never said it wasn't the case , in fact, I had always stated 60/40 or 70/30 (you can check my posts if you don't believe me)..but there are a facto
48 Post contains images Keesje : No doubt they did. BA may have been the make or brake deal..
49 Flyglobal : Besides the fact that LH with their A380 + B748i and their A346 fleet will have always the right plane size for a route to optimize load factors they
50 Columba : LH will fly their 747-8Is for 15-20 years and then convert them into freighters for LH Cargo. They don´t need to sell them they can use them within
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