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China Airlines To Upgrade TPE-FRA  
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3766 posts, RR: 19
Posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7107 times:

China Airlines from July 1st will upgrade their five times weekly non-stop services from the Taiwanese capital of Taipei to Frankfurt, Germany.

Services will change to a three class operation with the First Class being introduced on the route.

Flights are currently operated by the two class A340-300, but will move to the three class 747-400.

China Airlines currently flies to Vienna (via Bangkok), Frankfurt, Rome (via Bangkok) and Amsterdam (via Bangkok) in Europe.


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61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePaomien From Taiwan, joined Mar 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7078 times:

any idea if they're going to be using their 74B aircraft with signature interior (12F/64C/314Y) or their standard 74A product (14C/64C/319Y) ?

User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6836 times:

This is interesting. I'm sure a while ago FRA was mentioned as one of the routes which was "disappointing".

User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6817 times:



Quoting B742 (Thread starter):

China Airlines currently flies to Vienna (via Bangkok), Frankfurt, Rome (via Bangkok) and Amsterdam (via Bangkok) in Europe.

Any reason Frankfurt is non-stop whilst the others are via BKK?



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6782 times:



Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 3):
Quoting B742 (Thread starter):

China Airlines currently flies to Vienna (via Bangkok), Frankfurt, Rome (via Bangkok) and Amsterdam (via Bangkok) in Europe.

Any reason Frankfurt is non-stop whilst the others are via BKK?

I would imagine it's because there is more business traffic between Taiwan and Germany than any of the other destinations.

I believe that AMS, VIE and FCO which fly via BKK are quite heavily dependent on traffic between BKK and those destinations, which suggests that there isn't sufficient demand to have regular non-stop flights from TPE. I think KLM also have a daily AMS-BKK-TPE flight.

Before EVA had a non-stop TPE-CDG flight, but it was suspended a while ago due to expensive overflight rights in Russia and high fuel prices.


User currently offlinePaomien From Taiwan, joined Mar 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6496 times:

VIE actually stops in AUH, not BKK  Smile ...

From the few times I've taken CI061/062, the passenger loads seem quite heavy, maybe that's why they've decided to switch the equipment to B744


User currently offlineThaiflyer From Thailand, joined Oct 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6316 times:

EVA also flys 4 times a week between AMS and BKK and on to Taipei i believe.

User currently offlineCoolfish1103 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6273 times:

According to China Airlines' German website, 74B will be used.

I believe TPE-FRA does not need an intermediate stop to gather more passengers. There are already enough passengers to fly directly. After EVA axed their TPE-CDG route and CAL introduced code share with Czech, I think the number of passengers increased.

This also means the aircraft is swapped from the TPE-LAX route, while the aircraft from TPE-YVR will be rotated into servicing TPE-LAX... what a nightmare for us LAX fliers!


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10582 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6193 times:

Nice to hear that CIs 744s are coming here.
Now I hope JAL and MAS change the FRA route back to 744s!


User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5989 times:

Now EVA do not fly to CDG anymore , why CI don't open CDG ? Maybe they will be able to exploit this route more profitable than EVA did ?.

User currently offlineCoolfish1103 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

CAL cannot start a CDG route because that route only allows one carrier from Taiwan to serve. Although EVA does not serve the CDG passenger routes, it still serves the CDG cargo route and I guess they are not going to drop it to let CAL take over.

Also, serving CDG would be quite expensive as France do not allow fifth freedom, so you cannot make an intermediate stop to carry/drop passengers like other Europe destinations. I know FRA is non-stop, but FRA has enough passenger traffic to maintain.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4589 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5583 times:
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if CI are sending 744s to FRA and they reportedly have 2 planes whitetailed http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...neral_aviation/read.main/3988279/, is that because those planes just got a cabin upgrade?

where will they redeploy the A343s? I see TPE-NRT-HNL has gone from 744 to A343, any others likely or any new routes?

and when is the new 744 cabins they were talking about last year coming?


User currently offlinePaomien From Taiwan, joined Mar 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

those planes supposedly got sold off, since they were the oldest 2 of the 747-400 fleet ...

Maybe they will deploy the A343 on the TPE-BKK-AMS route, since they were thinking about going C/Y only on that route after the 744 cabin upgrade ?

Wow, if they're planning on using their 74B aircraft, that means about 50% of the time the TPE-LAX route will use 74A equipment, without AVOD ... terrible for the CI008/007/006/005 fliers ... although the C class seat on the 74A is actually more comfortable ...


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4589 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5441 times:
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Quoting Paomien (Reply 12):
those planes supposedly got sold off, since they were the oldest 2 of the 747-400 fleet ...

if they are sold off that leaves them with 13 744s, will they have enough planes for their routes? taking the 744s off TPE-NRT_HNL (5x/week) and putting them to FRA would seem to need more aircraft.

Quoting Paomien (Reply 12):
Maybe they will deploy the A343 on the TPE-BKK-AMS route, since they were thinking about going C/Y only on that route after the 744 cabin upgrade ?

isn't TPE-BKK-AMS as busy if not more so than TPE-FRA, unless they add a direct TPE-AMS flight with the A343

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 11):
where will they redeploy the A343s? I see TPE-NRT-HNL has gone from 744 to A343, any others likely or any new routes?

they actually have gone to A333 for the TPE-NRT-HNL

that means there will definitely be surplus A343 capacity unless other routes see equipment changes or new routes, whatever happened to the BRU, PRG rumors?

in fact if they are sending A333s to HNL (ok so TYO-HNL isn't exactly real long long haul but it is Etops and thats a big deal for CI) it seems they should send them to ANC and then to the US. the fuel savings compared to say the previous TPE-SEA-IAH with an A343 should be significant . Given how many 744Fs they have transiting through ANC (30 + flights in each direction weekly) it seems that sending a A333 westbound from ANC with a full payload may be doable though borderline for their non X version A333s. The A333s will not be weight limited from anywhere in the continental US to ANC but may be from ANC-TPE. But they could limit cargo on that sector and their 744Fs could haul it from ANC. Besides westbound cargo market is much smaller.
Similarly going eastbound winds are more favorable so TPE-ANC with a full load on an A333 may be quite doable and if not the 744Fs haul it to ANC and it gets transferred to the A333s for the lower 48 states.
This could allow new US destinations, even if the pax loads weren't great, the A333s could be used as cargo haulers to cities in the US with smaller cargo markets with ANC being used as a transhipment point like NW does and if the pax loads on a particular flight are great from TPE or to TPE, the cargo just waits in ANC for any of those 744fs which aren't totally full coming through.
Or am I nuts?


User currently offlineCoolfish1103 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5288 times:

TPE-NRT-HNL is operated by an A333 not A343 since March 31st. TPE-HNL is operated by A343. The oldest 744 were operating these route until it got retired. Also, I believe the retired 744 got sold this month.

TPE-YVR will be operated by A343 in response to the TPE-FRA equipment swap. However, the swap is made with TPE-LAX instead because 74B is used mostly on TPE-LAX. Since TPE-FRA's schedule is D24567, we will likely to see CI 007/008 to be stuck with 74A as they depart around the same time (given the information on the CAL German website is true) on those dates. They will need 2 74B aircrafts dedicated to ensure the services, and with equipment swap, it's likely to see CI008 flights to be operated by 74B only on D13.

According to someone from FT, TPE-SEA will have frequency reduced from D12357 to D357 starting from July 1st, basically back to the original state when IAH was still in operation. Now I wonder if they will deploy these aircrafts to mainland weekend charter flights.

I am waiting to see further cuts from CAL (either route axed or frequency reduced) as so many other carriers have reduced frequencies or axed routes, CAL should as well.


User currently offlinePaomien From Taiwan, joined Mar 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5218 times:



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 13):
if they are sold off that leaves them with 13 744s, will they have enough planes for their routes? taking the 744s off TPE-NRT_HNL (5x/week) and putting them to FRA would seem to need more aircraft.

That's what I was wondering, too. 13 B744's would not be enough to serve LAX, SFO, YVR, JFK, AMS, and FRA all at once ...

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 13):
isn't TPE-BKK-AMS as busy if not more so than TPE-FRA, unless they add a direct TPE-AMS flight with the A343

It might be, but I just remember hearing that when they do a cabin retrofit on their existing 744 fleet, the european flights will have a 2 cabin configuration ...


User currently offlineCoolfish1103 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5167 times:



Quoting Paomien (Reply 15):
It might be, but I just remember hearing that when they do a cabin retrofit on their existing 744 fleet, the european flights will have a 2 cabin configuration ...

If FRA proves to have a First Class passenger population and YVR does not, I guess FRA might be the only destination with First Class in Europe. Amsterdam does not have enough First Class passenger populations. 13 B744 should be enough for 6 long-hauls (cause HNL use to be a 744 destination, and it worked fine), but with minor tweaks needed.

Quoting Paomien (Reply 15):

That's what I was wondering, too. 13 B744's would not be enough to serve LAX, SFO, YVR, JFK, AMS, and FRA all at once ...

SFO 003/004 will need 2 747 to rotate (A: 1/3/5/7/2/4/6, B: 2/4/6/1/3/5/7).
LAX 005/006/007/008 will need 4 747 to rotate (2A: 1/3/5/7/2/4/6, 2B: 2/4/6/1/3/5/7).
JFK 011/012 will need about 2 747 to rotate D2457 (A: 2/4/7/5, B: 5/2/4/7).
YVR 031/032 will need 2 747 to rotate (A: 1/3/5/7/2/4/6, B: 2/4/6/1/3/5/7).
FRA 061/062 will need about 2 747 to rotate D24567 (A: 5/7/2/4/6, B: 2/4/6/5/7).
AMS 065/066 will need 2 747 to rotate (A: 1/3/5/7/2/4/6, B: 2/4/6/1/3/5/7).

Right now they will be 1 aircraft short for the rotations... they will need to modify the dates on one of them if they want to serve all 6 locations. If they modify JFK flying dates then it will work out well (they can actually increase frequencies on JFK as well if they plan it right)... such as: JFK 011/012 D12357 (D13 use the extra slot from the FRA 747, D257 use the last 747).

I think they probably did the aircraft swap because:
1. Demand increased in FRA, decreased in YVR.
2. About time to put 1 bird into maintenance for new interior designs.


User currently offlinePaomien From Taiwan, joined Mar 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5031 times:



Quoting Coolfish1103 (Reply 16):
Right now they will be 1 aircraft short for the rotations... they will need to modify the dates on one of them if they want to serve all 6 locations. If they modify JFK flying dates then it will work out well (they can actually increase frequencies on JFK as well if they plan it right)... such as: JFK 011/012 D12357 (D13 use the extra slot from the FRA 747, D257 use the last 747).

I think they probably did the aircraft swap because:
1. Demand increased in FRA, decreased in YVR.
2. About time to put 1 bird into maintenance for new interior designs.

Ah so actually they won't be an aircraft short, since YVR will be switched to A343 ....

I fly their 011/012 the most out of any of their flights, and generally it's quite full. C is always full, F is full maybe 50% of the time, but their Y suffers on this leg because of competition...


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4589 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4923 times:
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so one of the early 744s is sold and one is out of service for refurbishment??

User currently offlinePaomien From Taiwan, joined Mar 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

I think both of them (B-18273 and B-18275) were both sold ... however I only know of B-18273 having a registration change ... and supposedly B-18275 has been white-tailed ... if it was only out for refurbishment then the plum blossom logo would still be there ?

User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4589 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4863 times:
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I suppose the registration change could be a sale/leaseback deal. there was that other 747 they reregistered in the US to get some sort of FAA certification for their mx dept. anyone know if these planes are due for a D check?

User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4798 times:



Quoting Paomien (Reply 19):
if it was only out for refurbishment then the plum blossom logo would still be there ?

New livery? I hope not, I like the current one...



This is my signature.
User currently offlineCoolfish1103 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4709 times:



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 18):
so one of the early 744s is sold and one is out of service for refurbishment??

Both birds retired and sold.
They may be doing refurbishment on another bird's interior given their current layout of flights, which allows one bird to rest.

After July 1st, 2008 - YVR gets 744 axed to A343.
SFO 003/004 will need 2 744 to rotate (A: 1/3/5/7/2/4/6, B: 2/4/6/1/3/5/7).
LAX 005/006/007/008 will need 4 744 to rotate (2A: 1/3/5/7/2/4/6, 2B: 2/4/6/1/3/5/7).
JFK 011/012 will need about 2 744 to rotate D2457 (A: 2/4/7/5, B: 5/2/4/7).
FRA 061/062 will need about 2 744 to rotate D24567 (A: 5/7/2/4/6, B: 2/4/6/5/7).
AMS 065/066 will need 2 744 to rotate (A: 1/3/5/7/2/4/6, B: 2/4/6/1/3/5/7).

They will only need 12 aircrafts to do the rotations without interfering each route with equipment swap... therefore, they will have 1 aircraft sitting in TPE most of the time serving regional routes (which all 13 birds can do while they are home in the morning, so it may indicate cabin refurbishing). Someone already checked expert flier and said FRA will be getting 74B on 2008/07/02, so have fun to the FRA fliers! However, CI 005/006 will probably have the equipment swapped to 74A as the layout isn't out while CI 007/008 is.

What's noted is, if they do introduce the retrofitted cabin, it will most likely be used on TPE-LAX as they took away two birds to serve TPE-FRA, and the LAX passengers will definitely be angry for a while as they are very use to it.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4681 times:
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i always wonder, do the stops in BKK have anything to do with a restriction on Taiwan based aircraft flying through chinese airspace?


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4650 times:



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 23):
i always wonder, do the stops in BKK have anything to do with a restriction on Taiwan based aircraft flying through chinese airspace?

No, Taiwanese carriers are now allowed to cross over Chinese airspace, and vice versa. It was a problem in the past. BKK has more to do with loads, I think



This is my signature.
25 Paomien : yeah I bet they will be angry.... they're angry enough when equipment rotation puts 74A into service for 008/007/006/005 at the last minute .... but
26 Anonms : Don't they use 744s on some HKG legs, too?
27 Trex8 : not since ? 06 has that been a problem, CI and BR flights regularly cross PRC airspace on euro/India flights now, may even do so for BKK etc at least
28 Trex8 : sorry, need more caffeine, up all night!
29 Paomien : CI100/101 only uses 747-400 equipment, with the occasional A330 thrown in....
30 Coolfish1103 : Yes, most of them depart in the mornings. It should be transferred to cross-strait flights whenever it begins. 744 is used at most 4 to 5 times a day
31 Paomien : So if my calculations are correct, they will need 6 744 ready on days 012 and 061 are in operation ... one for each of these flights leaving from TPE
32 Paomien : now that I think about it ... they've already done it, since YVR is every day...FRA is only 2/4/5/6/7 ....
33 Coolfish1103 : They have a total of 13 aircrafts, and at max 12 will be used for this rotation.
34 Flyguy1 : Why does CI not operate TPE-JFK nonstop?
35 Anonms : Loads, I guess. I think they did at one point in time, though.
36 Paomien : they operated TPE-JFK nonstop (012 only..011 still needed the technical stop at ANC) back a few years ago when they were using their A340-300 aircraft
37 Coolfish1103 : I don't think 747-400 can do non-stop flights from TPE to JFK full load. A340-300 does not have First Class offered, and is not efficient for this ro
38 Bps3458 : I will be flying BNE-TPE-FRA return in Dynasty Class end of July coming back second week of August and I am actually a bit disappointed about the swit
39 Paomien : I fly 012/011 every two months or so, and the only cabin that seems to be oversold is the C cabin ... F always has a few seats empty and so does Y ..
40 Paomien : Unfortunately I'll have to say the business class in the A343 is a lot better than the business on any of their 747-400 aircraft (74A or 74B). The bu
41 Anonms : Well, the 74B C seat is pretty much the A333 J seat without the shell.
42 Paomien : true... I actually like it without the shell better ... the shell makes the seat pitch feel even smaller ...
43 BPS3458 : 10ABJK are occupied but I assume they are simply blocked off as the entire remaining upper deck is vacant. What is CI's emergency exit policy ? Will
44 Anonms : You usually can reserve emergency exit seats, IIRC. I reserved a Y emergency exit seat once.
45 Paomien : I think Anonms is right. You can reserve the emergency exit seats.
46 BPS3458 : Anoms & Paomien, thanks for your great assistance. Shall give CI BNE a call right away. Cheers, BPS3458
47 Coolfish1103 : Totally different in the story then. Friends said both Y (lots of Fuzhou baby sitters there) and C are oversold while F is not. They bumped some C pa
48 Anonms : Well, I have the lowest DF tier, and even I was able to reserve an exit row seat in Y; I think CI's either generally lenient or doesn't care much the
49 Paomien : This used to be the case, where Y and C were oversold, but from what I see now only C is oversold, and I've never seen anybody bumped from C to F ...
50 Coolfish1103 : Lowest tier indicating Regular Silver Card or Gold Card? Generally they give you the exit row if you are 1) their member, 2) at least 16 years old, 3
51 Anonms : Silver card. I reserved the seat online wayyyyy before my flight (I got bumped up at the gate, though, so I never got to enjoy my exit row seat). Off
52 Coolfish1103 : Well, maybe CI can convert an A340 into all Dynasty Supreme Class for TPE-JFK? I wonder what will happen when the Fuzhou baby sitters are allowed to
53 CX 4ever : AFAIK, CI has changed its exit row policy in late 2007. All exit row seats now have to be assigned at the airport counter, regardless of the passenge
54 Coolfish1103 : I just had my sister called CAL in regards to my reservation. I don't know where is this rule and I guess it's not strictly enforced because the agen
55 BPS3458 : I just called CI reservation and was told that the exit row 10 is blocked off and can only be assigned at check-in at the airport. Cheers, BPS3458
56 Coolfish1103 : Row 17 on the main deck also has better pitch... you should try to get it reserved first and see if you can get it changed to Row 10 when you are at
57 Post contains links Coolfish1103 : They finally put some words on their North America site... but not a specific announcement... good at hiding xD. http://www.china-airlines.com/en/prom
58 Paomien : you're right ... that way at least they can say "yes we did" when somebody complains "nobody ever said anything about this"
59 BPS3458 : Managed to get 17 B on both flights. Thanks for the advice. Cheers, BPS3458
60 Coolfish1103 : They also did that for the fuel surcharges for TPE-HKG v.v. They raised it after CX raised as well, but they did not do a formal announcement, they j
61 Paomien : yup ... they seem to be professionals at this.....
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