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UA Brazil And USA  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2973 posts, RR: 13
Posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 3869 times:
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i have been told that the flights from GIG/GRU to IAD and ORD are not profitable. yet i fly both of those routes often and the flights are almost always 100 % full. Especially in business class. is this true? i have also heard that the mail/freight is the thing that saves those flights. Any truth to this?


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39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 3861 times:



Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
i have been told that the flights from GIG/GRU to IAD and ORD are not profitable. yet i fly both of those routes often and the flights are almost always 100 % full. Especially in business class. is this true? i have also heard that the mail/freight is the thing that saves those flights. Any truth to this?

I don't know but UA is upgaging IAD-GRU this winter with a 777 so I would assume that loads are high and/or they make a killing in cargo.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineUnitedSuperDC8 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

If they are not profitable, they will not be around come fall. If they survive the fall cutbacks, they add value to the network. Individually, I suspect they are marginal - however they do allow United and the Star Alliance some capacity between United's US network and South America. Also, a full economy class is not profitable unless the fares are high and there is some good full fare premium flyers up front. I suspect anyone could full a flight to GRU/GIG if you drop the fare low enough.


No thanks - keep the 'Change'.....Al Gore invented two things: the internet & global warming
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

On aggregate United for years has continued to loose money on its Latin America flying per its 10K and DOT reporting.

Loadwise Brazil flying was not very spectacular either with 2007 LF's being 77% on IAD-GRU, 74.8% ORD-GRU and a disappointing 69.9% on the then new IAD-GIG.

I suspect with its recently commenced TAM cooperation UA hopes its fortunes will improve and replace lost feed and provide added revenues.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

I cant speak for GRU, but IAD-GIG had very poor loads. Hence why its not there on the off peak. Im not sure if its coming back. Ive heard that IAD-GRU is a decent preformer, but ORD-GRU is a bit behind. Whether they are profitable, im not so sure, but I wouldnt be surprised to see ORD-GRU go if times get tough enough.


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User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8457 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3197 times:
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IAD to GRU and EZE provide an opposite high season from the summer in the USA. LF of 77% on IAD to GRU sounds good to me, the ability of a flight from Washington to Sao Paulo to sustain itself is even more unbelieveable. UA needs a presence in Latin America, IAD gives UA a link to cities it should fly to from its east coast hub. Given United's international reach, withdrawing from Brazil would be a huge step backwards while every other USA airline has expanded to GRU.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3065 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
I cant speak for GRU, but IAD-GIG had very poor loads.

Funny as DOT reports shows IAD-GIG stronger than IAD-GRU for Oct/07 (first month of dedicated service to GIG).

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
i have been told that the flights from GIG/GRU to IAD and ORD are not profitable. yet i fly both of those routes often and the flights are almost always 100 % full. Especially in business class. is this true? i have also heard that the mail/freight is the thing that saves those flights. Any truth to this?

I don't know about profitability, but GIG-IAD non-stop service now will begin earlier (Sep 02) instead of the end of October.
I doubt they are not profitable considering the fares they charge even on Economy and the fact they got nice loads year round.
They got good cargo loads (accordingly to DOT reports) and loads are good.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Loadwise Brazil flying was not very spectacular either with 2007 LF's being 77% on IAD-GRU, 74.8% ORD-GRU and a disappointing 69.9% on the then new IAD-GIG.

UA doesn't have the best destinations concerning to Brazil-US so they got the worst loads. And i wont call as disappointing 5 points less on a new seasonal service against an established service like ORD.
This is a clear picture how the market handle an airline that neglects a market during some years and treat it as an option and now come with a seasonal service. Also, UA face several problems in Brazil during last IATA winter... aircraft with maintenance issues caused a lot of delays and it does not help airline image.
On the other side, DL and AA continues to do extremely well and TAM is about to begin 2 new services from GIG because they are treating the market as a priority.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2877 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
I don't know but UA is upgaging IAD-GRU this winter with a 777 so I would assume that loads are high and/or they make a killing in cargo.

This is the information I also have.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Loadwise Brazil flying was not very spectacular either with 2007 LF's being 77% on IAD-GRU, 74.8% ORD-GRU and a disappointing 69.9% on the then new IAD-GIG.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
I cant speak for GRU, but IAD-GIG had very poor loads.

Thanks for these interesting reports, as they are news for me. I am sure IAD-GRU must be a very strong route otherwise UA would not deploy the B777. Also, loads dont depict the whole situation, and Brazil performs particularly well in regard to yields. If you have F and C full while Y half full the flight would show medium loads but strong yields. This is similar situation KLM is facing in GRU nowadays: business class is ALWAYS FULL (downgrades now are frequent) while loads on economy have slipped. Still, the flight is very profitable and doing quite well.

Rgs,


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

I think generally ORD/IAD-GRU make money but IAD-GIG probably doesnt..

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2817 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
I doubt they are not profitable considering the fares they charge even on Economy and the fact they got nice loads year round.

All three of UA's Brazil routes lose money. None are currently profitable, with IAD-GIG having the worst loads.



a.
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2814 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
All three of UA's Brazil routes lose money. None are currently profitable, with IAD-GIG having the worst loads.

Can you cite a source for that statement?



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2784 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
Funny as DOT reports shows IAD-GIG stronger than IAD-GRU for Oct/07 (first month of dedicated service to GIG).

For the first month yes, but it fell off drastically before it was canned.

The loads were as follows:

Oct07 - 41.5%
Nov07 - 65.3%
Dec07 - 74.4%
Jan08 - 82.4%
Feb08 - 67.0%

The route was a dissappointment to UA, hence why it isnt here anymore.


Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
All three of UA's Brazil routes lose money.

The only one ive heard that struggles is ORD-GRU. I havent heard much about IAD-GRU/EZE. I do know that IAD-GIG was a dissappointment.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineBSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2683 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):
The route was a dissappointment to UA, hence why it isnt here anymore.

The route isnt here anymore because it is seasonal and as LipeGIG stated the route will come back earlier in September instead of end of October.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2676 times:



Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 12):
The route isnt here anymore because it is seasonal and as LipeGIG stated the route will come back earlier in September instead of end of October.

It was initally supposed to be year round.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineUnitedSuperDC8 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2617 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):
It was initally supposed to be year round.

According to United's press releases announcing its seasonal nonstop between IAD & GIG, they referred to it as seasonal


CHICAGO, May 3, 2007
..United's new seasonal, non-stop service between Washington, D.C., and Rio de Janeiro...

CHICAGO, October 25, 2007
..The seasonal direct service from Washington, D.C., to Rio de Janeiro will begin Sunday..

http://www.united.com/press/detail/0,6862,58105-1,00.html
http://www.united.com/press/detail/0,6862,58591-1,00.html


Also, United is calling the service 'seasonal' again for 2008

CHICAGO, May 6, 2008
With United’s first-ever flights to Dubai and Moscow, United’s Washington Dulles hub now will serve 24 international destinations, including five that began operating in the past two years: Beijing, Kuwait, Rio de Janeiro (seasonal service restarts in September), Rome and Tokyo.

http://www.united.com/press/detail/0,6862,59224,00.html



No thanks - keep the 'Change'.....Al Gore invented two things: the internet & global warming
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):

It was initally supposed to be year round.

That was not how the route was advertised when first launched. It was said to be seasonal from the start.

Edit: UnitedSuperDC8 was faster than me.

[Edited 2008-06-02 12:05:30]

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2577 times:



Quoting UnitedSuperDC8 (Reply 14):
According to United's press releases announcing its seasonal nonstop between IAD & GIG, they referred to it as seasonal


My mistake. I could have sworn I read it was going to be year round.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

I have flown all three flights fairly frequently over the last three years. Business is always full and coach loads seem very good, but first is almost always occupied by non-rev employees and an odd paying customer once in a while. It seems to me that United would be better served by a two-class 767 on those routes, which would free up more space for paying Biz or coach passengers.

I flew ORD-GRU last week and I have to say that customer service was a nightmare, to say the least, which unfortunately is not all that uncommon. If anyone is interested you can read my trip report: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ums/trip_reports/read.main/126945/


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2434 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):
The route was a dissappointment to UA, hence why it isnt here anymore.

Again, IAD isn't a good option from Brazil, seasonal isn't a regular flight.
And IF the route is such a disaster, i believe UA wouldn't run it again....

Funny how an airline seems to insist in "waste" money, and now, even during more time!
UA probably is crazy...

And this year will be even worst with the competition of GIG-JFK new JJ service.

Quoting UnitedSuperDC8 (Reply 14):
Also, United is calling the service 'seasonal' again for 2008

CHICAGO, May 6, 2008
With United's first-ever flights to Dubai and Moscow, United's Washington Dulles hub now will serve 24 international destinations, including five that began operating in the past two years: Beijing, Kuwait, Rio de Janeiro (seasonal service restarts in September), Rome and Tokyo.

So i didn't expect to be more valuable than in 2007/2008.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):
Nov07 - 65.3%

IAD-GIG - 4040 pax
ORD-GRU - 3976 pax
IAD-GRU - 3908 pax
ATL-GIG - 5616 pax
ATL-GRU - 5685 pax

Source: DOT
If IAD-GIG was disappointing....

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2432 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
IAD-GIG - 4040 pax
ORD-GRU - 3976 pax
IAD-GRU - 3908 pax
ATL-GIG - 5616 pax
ATL-GRU - 5685 pax

Wow, UA is struggleing at GRU. Makes me think they will cut one GRU route.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2363 times:

I've always wondered why UA doesn't do SFO-GRU. They would have direct feeds from Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Bejing (I think) and a couple other Asian routes and would get much higher yields from business travelers. They would also benefit from their codeshare with TAM for onward connections in Brazil.

User currently offlinePdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1119 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

So, what's the conclusion here? Are UA's flights to GRU and GIG from IAD 'successful' or not? Note the quoutes around 'successful'; whether UA even breaks even on the routes would constitute 'success' as these routes will only increase with traffic as economic, political [especially important for IAD] and cultural ties with Brasil boom in the future.

I understand the IAD-GIG flight is seasonal, while the 14x IAD-GRU flight is also seasonal.

Also, I am VERY interested in learning how the 7x IAD-EZE route is performing as I fly there often.

Comments welcome.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2234 times:



Quoting Klkla (Reply 20):
I've always wondered why UA doesn't do SFO-GRU

For starters its not that huge a market. If UA was to pursue a deep South America flight from CA, it would be from LA, as when they applied to serve EZE in the late 90s.

More importantly however until UA's recent premium cabin refit (providing lie flat seats), the only aircraft UA could use for the flight was a 777 or 744 due to their crew rest facilities. The 763 could not be scheduled on any flights blocked at >12hrs due lack of lie flat resting facilities, while the 777 or 744 were simply too large for the market.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 21):
while the 14x IAD-GRU flight is also seasonal.

2nd IAD-GRU has not operated since Northern winter 06/07 season, and instead was replaced by the GIG nonstop last winter.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 21):
IAD-EZE route is performing

EZE monthly LFs tends to average be a couple points above IAD-GRU.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2222 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
For starters its not that huge a market.

The Japan to Sao Paulo market is almost big enough on its own. Brazil has a huge economy, Sao Paulo is a huge business center. As such, it would be impossible not to do business with China and United would benefit with a lot of travelers from/to Bejing and Shanghai with a one stop connection. Not to mention United has lots of feeder traffic at SFO (more than LAX) and I personally think it would work.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
while the 777 or 744 were simply too large for the market

777 would work just fine and would not be too big.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2215 times:



Quoting Klkla (Reply 23):
The Japan to Sao Paulo market is almost big enough on its own.

Which UA can already serves via ORD and IAD now. No need for a 3rd connection point at SFO.

Anyhow if you have not noticed, Asia-Latin America transfer traffic in the US continues to decline and is something carriers as Air Canada, AeroMexico and even European ones have taken good advantage off.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 Commavia : United's present capacity levels to Brazil are motivated by one thing and one thing only: the value of the precious slots that United has. There are o
26 VC10er : how many people from the NYC area actually skip CO, DL, AA and JJ to go to GRU or GIG via IAD on UA? that would mean departing LGA, EWR or JFK for IAD
27 C010T3 : People flying to GIG in the winter, I guess. In spite of everything, IAD is still better than GRU.
28 SJOtoLIR : UA may rely in the code-share services supplied by JJ on behalf of UA. UA is disappearing from the Latin American scenario as they dropped UA LAX-SAL
29 BSBIsland : Successful or not IAD-GRU is being upgraded to the 777 while IAD-GIG is coming back earlier than previously scheduled. If it was so unprofitable wasn
30 LAXintl : Dont forget the daily LAX-GUA 757.... (off course I could see something happening to it sooner or later also)
31 LipeGIG : I know a lot of people flying NYC-Brazil and believe me, i heard about AA (JFK/MIA), DL (JFK/ATL) and CO (EWR), but UA is not mentioned (and in fact
32 MAH4546 : If only it was so easy to figure things out. It is quite possible that a problem with IAD-GRU is because the economics of the route mean it could tur
33 LAXdude1023 : I always have trouble finding Biz Class seats on AA from DFW/JFK-GRU, MIA-GRU has more seats, so they are easier to find. I send a lot of people to B
34 United1 : Very true, the last SFO-ORD flight that I was on had a large group of people connecting in ORD to the GRU flight weird that middle CA works for conne
35 LAXdude1023 : I guess if you think about it, Norcal might work a bit easier through ORD because its not quite as out of the way. Another thing is, what kind of tra
36 Hardiwv : This is what kills F in almost every airline... UA had a series of incident in Brazil early in the year both in GRU and GIG because of problems in th
37 Cubsrule : Chicago-South America is a tough market. I wonder how much-- if at all-- being the only game in town (once AA cuts ORD-EZE) will help. It certainly w
38 LAXdude1023 : If anyone can make a market from Chicago to South America work its UA. And the easiest market to make work in deep South America is GRU. If UA cant m
39 Hardiwv : You have a strong point here. In fact UA will inherently be at disadvantage regarding its hub position to South America with DL ATL, CO IAH and AA MI
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