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Airlines May Treat Passengers `Like Freight'...  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7173 posts, RR: 86
Posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4531 times:
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...to beat the fuel surge.

 bigthumbsup 


Imagine stepping on a scale before boarding your next flight.  blush 

The article is a good read, full of cost cutting measures that most don't know about.

article


35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLVHGEL From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

Well, in the beginning of air travel, every passenger was weighted before boarding, but in this case was for seat assignment and load balance.

User currently offlineCAL764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4406 times:

Well, if that's the case, times have changed, quite dramatically. I doubt we'll see half of those, but we'll see...


1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5354 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4405 times:

Weighed? Is that all? I expected to be drugged and loaded like lumber.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4681 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Since when have we not been considered as freight? Heck, we're treated as freight. No service at all. All the flight + cabin crew wants to do is get to their destination as quickly as possible so they may have their layover orgys  Wink


"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineMyt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 71
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4345 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 4):
All the flight + cabin crew wants to do is get to their destination as quickly as possible so they may have their layover orgys

Don't be bitter!



One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Are we talking only U.S. legacy carriers here?????  duck  What's new with those guys....before we know it, riding a Greyhound bus from the east coast to the west coast will be quicker, more efficient, and more enjoyable than flying the legacies at the rate they're going! Big grin


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

Did the author credit the two a.net people who proposed the same thing, or did he just read the forums here then write his article?

It won't happen, it's a stupid idea. It's a false slippery slope. Seats are sold by unit, not by weight, and this won't change.

Think of a seat as a "flat rate envelope" at the post office.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAg92 From India, joined Jul 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4030 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 4):
Since when have we not been considered as freight? Heck, we're treated as freight. No service at all. All the flight + cabin crew wants to do is get to their destination as quickly as possible so they may have their layover orgys

In Asia, you are treated as customers, trust me just fly the likes of SQ, CX, TG, MH, JL, NH all the heavy weights of Asia and now even 9W and to a certain point AI

Just watch out for Kingfisher and what they do since they have been on a loss for a long time and I highly doubt for the next 15-20 years that they would weigh passengers, especially in America. I wouldn't be surprised if it came to Asia first as people in America sue each other for no reason at all


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3863 times:



Quoting Ag92 (Reply 8):
as people in America sue each other for no reason at all

charging me more because of my genetic makeup (tall people weigh more) is not no reason at all. it is the essence of discrimination.

SOME people in America sue for no real reason, but MOST lawsuits are for very valid reasons. Valid reasons don't make the news…



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 958 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3694 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
charging me more because of my genetic makeup (tall people weigh more) is not no reason at all. it is the essence of discrimination.

Not that I consider myself some sort of Constitutional legal scholar, but an act is not considered discrimination if it holds up to "strict scrutiny" and "serves a compelling interest." In other words, if a policy is applied universally and has a legitimate justification, it is permissible.

It is basic physics that it requires more work twice as much work to move a 300 lb person as a 150 lb person. If an airline can show that their fare structure is proportional to the cost of offering their service, it's legal buddy.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

honestly though, its a good idea. Basically pay for what you use. For me for example, i weigh 155 so i should pay what it costs to get my weight wherever i need to go. Someone that is heavier needs to pay more because it takes more to get them where they need to go, why should lighter people pay more to get the heavier people across?

Same should apply for your luggage, you pay to get that to your destination as well. i know i must sound crazy supporting this but when airlines obviously can't make money right now then you pay what it costs to get there....

Now does anyone know how much it would cost to get a 155lb person + 20lb checked bag + 5 lb carry on from SAN-ATL?


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3440 times:



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
Weighed? Is that all? I expected to be drugged and loaded like lumber.

And give up the main advantage of self-loading cargo? No, I rather expect to be drugged after loading myself and woken up for unloading again.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineTF39 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Three weeks ago I was in boarding a UA flight from Hong Kong to Singapore. There was a "voluntary" weigh-in of the passengers with their carry-ons as apparently the FAA is conducting a survey to weigh passengers carry-ons or at least that was what was said over the PA. Not much specifics were given at the time of boarding but perhaps this is the start of the data collection process to determine the boundaries. That is, determine average person weight, carry-on weight, and then start charging more based on where you fall in the curve. I.e, if you fall in the +3 sigma area, you get charged a higher rate. Doubt if you get any rebate if you go on a diet.

To be serious, I'm all for weight limits on carry-ons as I've always wondered how much weight is really up there in those bins. And I've seen enough bins pop open in flight to where someone could get seriously hurt if a heavy bag fell on their head.


User currently offlineManu From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 406 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3372 times:



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
Weighed? Is that all? I expected to be drugged and loaded like lumber.

In today's market, you would have to pay at least $6 for the in-flight drugging part.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
it is the essence of discrimination.

Why do women pay more for hair cuts? Why do unmarried men under 30 pay more for car insurance? Most people pay more for car insurance if we have a bad driving record.

Discrimination is everywhere and unfortunately life is not fair. Excluding someone from something based on a trait is wrong. Paying more because of some choices or situation is a marketing decision.

I'd fly on the airline that charges by weight since I know I'd save money (I'm an athlete and have a BMI under 20). But I also pay more for my car insurance because I am unwed and don't have kids.

Charging more for a flight because I have a blue shirt on would be discrimination. Charging more because there is an added cost to carrying more weight (Person+Luggage) I think makes sense because it passes the true cost of travel to the consumer. It is not meant to discriminate.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19290 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

It doesn't make much sense to me.

If the smallest mainline a/c is about 150 seats, then the law of averages kicks in. There is an average weight per pax for each given route. That average weight should be factored in. So this flight weighs 1000 lb more than average; the last one will weigh less. That's the mathematical definition of an average. And then you charge based on the average weight of a passenger on that given flight multiplied by the average load factor.

It's far easier than facing discrimination suits (and believe me, there is precedent for such suits).


User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3344 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):

charging me more because of my genetic makeup (tall people weigh more) is not no reason at all. it is the essence of discrimination.

The basis would have to be BMI, not mere weight. Also, it wouldn't be a single 'good BMI.' It would have to have a buffer, so people that are well built aren't penalized for such.

Quoting Manu (Reply 14):
Charging more for a flight because I have a blue shirt on would be discrimination. Charging more because there is an added cost to carrying more weight (Person+Luggage) I think makes sense because it passes the true cost of travel to the consumer. It is not meant to discriminate.

Exactly.


User currently offlineManu From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 406 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3308 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 11):
Now does anyone know how much it would cost to get a 155lb person + 20lb checked bag + 5 lb carry on from SAN-ATL?

Package details: 1 skid(s) , 180.0 lbs , Your Packaging , 24 in x 36 in x 36 in , 0.00 USD.

FedEx: From: San diego, 92101, U.S.A. | To: Atlanta, 30322, U.S.A. on June 3, 2008.

FedEx 1Day Freight® 1140.48
FedEx 2Day Freight® 951.55
FedEx 3Day Freight® 776.45

Makes flying Delta look cheap!


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3289 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 11):
honestly though, its a good idea. Basically pay for what you use. For me for example, i weigh 155 so i should pay what it costs to get my weight wherever i need to go. Someone that is heavier needs to pay more because it takes more to get them where they need to go, why should lighter people pay more to get the heavier people across?

Yeah, back to the times when outward appearance or other signs of what was considered "not being normal" decided, what you got and what you pay.

I definitely wouldn't be with the people who have to pay more, but honestly, the US citizens would experience a large increase in fares if they would be measured in kg body mass Big grin


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3205 times:



Quoting Ag92 (Reply 8):
people in America sue each other for no reason at all

Please provide a single case where this is true. Just one.

I would be fine if airlines charged people more due to bulk (weight, height), as long as they compensated with commensurate accommodations (bigger seat, more leg-room, etc.) - in the same fare class.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3150 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 18):
definitely wouldn't be with the people who have to pay more, but honestly, the US citizens would experience a large increase in fares if they would be measured in kg body mass

haha ya i'm sure other airlines would love having americans on their flights being able to charge more for us!

Quoting Manu (Reply 17):
Package details: 1 skid(s) , 180.0 lbs , Your Packaging , 24 in x 36 in x 36 in , 0.00 USD.

FedEx: From: San diego, 92101, U.S.A. | To: Atlanta, 30322, U.S.A. on June 3, 2008.

FedEx 1Day Freight® 1140.48
FedEx 2Day Freight® 951.55
FedEx 3Day Freight® 776.45

Makes flying Delta look cheap!

I meant on an airline, as in that weight flown on a 767 from SAN-ATL on Delta for example but wow thats expensive for FedEx!!


User currently offlineSmithAir747 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1621 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

A few years ago, I saw a FedEx parody website that mentioned "PeoplePak" body bags for shipping live humans by air.

FedEx "PeoplePak" body bags would be padded body bags in which a person (presumably anesthetized?) would lie, and these body bags would be stacked up in containers and loaded onto FedEx jets like cargo.

FedEx PeoplePak: The ultimate no-frills, low-cost airline service of the future?

Here's how I would envision traveling via FedEx PeoplePak: (This is based on my many surgeries, hence the specific anesthetic drug names.)

I would arrive at the airport (more accurately, the FedEx passenger terminal at the airport). I would queue up at a check-in counter for my destination, then get escorted to an anesthesia induction room (like those in the OR suite at some hospitals). An anesthesia mask would suddenly be placed over my face and I would get a mixture of O2 and 2% Sevoflurane, or an IV injection of Propofol or Versed (midazolam) would be administered, by an anesthetist.

Suitably anesthetized, I would be placed in my PeoplePak (my size) and stacked with other PeoplePaks into a container bound for my destination (the bags would be tagged with the destination, like any cargo would).

I would not know I had flown anywhere until I woke up on the other end, where I would be awakened.

It would be just like being put to sleep for surgery and "immediately" waking up--somewhere else!

SmithAir747



I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
User currently offlineEnginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3082 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 16):
The basis would have to be BMI, not mere weight.

Well, BMI does not cause higher costs, it is the mere absolute weight of the passengers.

We will, however, neither see weight-related fares nor BMI-related fares, of that I am pretty certain.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

But to put it in perspective, the marginal difference between flying a tall, 200 pound man and a 30 pound suitcase around vs. a 130 pound woman and a 30 pound suitcase (or a short/slight 150 pound man, for that matter) should not lead to such actions by the airline.

A 738 has an OEW of 91k pounds. Divided by 150 pax, that's 605 pounds per pax of aircraft weight to carry, an amount you have to lift no matter if the plane is full of children or sumo wrestlers. 835/765 - 1 = 9%. Hardly a huge difference between the tall man and the woman there.

If the average pax is defined at 200 pounds for a person including belongings, then we are talking 835/805 - 1 = 3.75%. The 200 pound man uses 3.75% more fuel than the average person, roughly (assuming fuel use scales linearly with TOW, which I don't think it does, but we have to make assumptions).

With fuel about 30-40% of cost right now, that means it costs an airline 1% more to fly a heavier person around (heavier by no fault of their own other than being over 6') than an "average" person.

On a trip that costs the airline $300 per pax, that's $3. But there's no suggestion to charge people who are below average less than before, so it's not even $3. Assume 1/3 of pax are normal, 1/3 below, 1/3 above, on a 150 seat aircraft, that means that an airline breaks even by not charging $3 more to the heavier person and $3 less to the lighter one.

You think that's worth lawsuits and badwill for no benefit? Seriously?

Quoting Manu (Reply 14):
Why do women pay more for hair cuts? Why do unmarried men under 30 pay more for car insurance? Most people pay more for car insurance if we have a bad driving record.

Women pay more for haircuts because they don't object to it, for one thing. It's a market, and they find someone they "like" and then stop shopping around. They tend to go to different places than men do (though not as much as they used to), so it's a different business with different costs. They ask for more to be done at one sitting, and take 2-5 times as long.

But if they ask for the same service as men (just a trim) at the same place (like a supercuts) they will pay the same. Happens all the time. And if men ask for color and all that jazz at a fancy salon, they pay more.

Women choose to pay more by choosing to keep hair long and have expensive looks. Men and woman have the same capacity to grow hair. Men can grow it to their butts and women can get a bowl cut. It's not gender specific. Tall people don't have more hair, either.

As for car insurance, are you saying that you shouldn't pay more because you have a bad driving record?

I have a clean record and have forever and always have paid low rates in comparison to others, men and women, even when I was under 30 and single.

Again, it's a market, so shop around.

I'm not sure what this has to do with charging tall people more money for exactly the same service on an airline.

Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 16):
The basis would have to be BMI, not mere weight. Also, it wouldn't be a single 'good BMI.' It would have to have a buffer, so people that are well built aren't penalized for such.

You mean the unscientific sham called BMI? The measure no professional in their right mind would use to measure health? That BMI? The one that uses only height and weight to determine health? That was modified and normalized to not differentiate between men and women, and revised downward to make more people "fat" without anyone gaining an ounce? That BMI?

You'd be better off using a silhouette chart and shining a light on everyone, then comparing the shadow to what is "healthy."

And when did the airlines get into the social engineering business? I thought they were for profit entities who made money flying people around. What do they care if someone is healthy?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19290 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3027 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
You mean the unscientific sham called BMI? The measure no professional in their right mind would use to measure health?

BMI is not a measure of health. It is one of many factors that is associated with cardiovascular risk.

Ikramerica, please tell me where you got your degree and in what healthcare field?

Because I am a healthcare professional with an M.D. from the University of Michigan. And I do use BMI. Every day. And it correlates very well with many risks.


25 EA772LR : I know it sounds much simpler in theory than in practice, but why don't the airlines just raise ticket fares accordingly to cover increases in operati
26 ChrisNH : Who came up with this idea, Jenny Craig?
27 Contrails : Agreed. The lawyers would have a field day with ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) suits. It would wind up costing the airlines more than it's wor
28 AznMadSci : I've always wanted to ride around on those conveyor belts and then up flying down or going up onto the baggage claim belts! WEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
29 AA61Hvy : That's a non-discounted rate, so naturally you will be paying a lot more. Call for the discounts! Ship yourself LTL for much cheaper
30 JettaKnight : Are the folks at the Big and Tall shop discriminating against you as well? There's a major problem with this scenario. The typical cost of general an
31 Mauiman31 : WN has been identifying COS's "Customers of Size" for a while now. They just eye ball them and question the pax as to whether they can fit in one seat
32 FXramper : Thanks for contributing to my 401(k)! (Ryan's too!) Shameless plug dude.
33 Mir : I have to pay an extra fee when renting a car simply because I am under 25. I have a perfectly good driving record, but I still have to pay just beca
34 NicoEDDF : Don't forget, that a skydiving school is something only a small group of people is interested in. It represents such a small niche, that not enough p
35 Willbdsp : Do you remember the scene in Airplane! where the announcment goes "Low cost carrier passengers arriving on belt 4" and there are people coming down t
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