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UA To Ground All 733s, Some 744s  
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2502 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23755 times:

Didn't know the groundings were to include 744s, then again, I may have simply stopped paying attention. The 744s are a surprise given UA's focus on international routes, the fact that most flights to/from the West Coast and SYD/MEL are full year round, and that UA is running thin on some of its long haul flights.

The linked article also suggests that UA will seek to drop some domestic nonstops and will instead feed more connections through hubs to make up for the lack of 737s.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...603ual-plane-story,0,4018539.story

Given UA's situation, can anyone provide some insight into the following:

- Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.
- How much fuel do UA's 744s guzzle and does this move smell of desperation?
- Will UA seek to convert some of its Ted 320s back into the mainline fleet?
- Any chance UA will pick up some of its 319/320 options?
- Does this foretell of a pending CO codeshare?


777fan


DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
197 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23741 times:

I can't say I am surprised, but the 747s, that will be tricky. That is a lot of parked aircraft. Wow

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23695 times:

I do not foresee UAL ordering or acquiring any additional aircraft in the near future, this is the beginning of a long and painful process that many airlines are going through. I do think that a CO/UAL codeshare is in the works, which will help both carriers. The codeshare also creates the ground would for a possibly future merger of CO/UAL, however UAL has a long way to go to fix their current situation.

A step in the right direction right now for UAL is to get smaller and leaner, fast!. Cut out the point to point stuff and fall back on fortress hubs.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23466 times:

It's post "Sept. 11 like" cutbacks again...sad but true this is perhaps the worst crisis facing US Majors after Sept. 11. What a pity...

User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6572 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23386 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
Cut out the point to point stuff and fall back on fortress hubs.

Does UA really offer a lot of P2P though? I think most of its domestic route structure is routed through the hubs as it is.


User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23323 times:



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.
- How much fuel do UA's 744s guzzle and does this move smell of desperation?
- Will UA seek to convert some of its Ted 320s back into the mainline fleet?
- Any chance UA will pick up some of its 319/320 options?
- Does this foretell of a pending CO codeshare?

I think the CO codeshare is close to being done. The TED Aircraft we will see, there are rumors afoot that TED is about to be dismantled.

The real question is what routes, destinations are about to loose UA Service. You can't take nearly 100 aircraft out of circulation and still be flying everywhere all the time. Either a major reduction on flights, or and destinations will be loss.


User currently offlineUniTED From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23257 times:

everyone is probably wondering how the 744s can be cut, with such an important focus being on int'l destinations... i think i can see how...

apparently (from what i have heard) the tag flights within Asia are relatively low-yielding. I have been on several between SGN-HKG-SIN-NRT-BKK, etc.. and they are mostly relatively empty up front. cutting these routes (or a few of them) will eliminate some 744 usage while keeping longhaul nonstops to the USA from foreign points. I think ANA, SQ, TG will be able to cover the potential loss of these tag flights without too much difficulty. I think would be very sad to see these routes go, but in my opinion, they will be the first to see the ax.  Sad



The opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily those of Delta Air Lines.
User currently offlineCaribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22982 times:



Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.

From the likes of it NO. My thoughts are that their would be no more adding of new a/cs nor used ones.

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- Will UA seek to convert some of its Ted 320s back into the mainline fleet?

Most likely given that they are motballing their 737 fleet and would need to move some A320 where due.

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
Any chance UA will pick up some of its 319/320 options?

Again not at this moment, UA would most likely be converting their TED Airbuses.

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
Does this foretell of a pending CO codeshare?

COuld very well be, UA needs what CO has to offer.



All ah we is one family
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2364 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22983 times:
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I wonder how many 744s will be parked, and if they will ever return to service with UA.


There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22910 times:

Here's a question..

could UA and CO be looking to start a whole new alliance? They both were founding members of their respective alliance.. perhaps they could be looking at starting something new?



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22848 times:

Sad news for UA. I really like the looks of the 733 in the new UA paint. I wonder how many routes will be cut. Are there any RJs on the way to take some slack? Has anyone heard how many 744s will go away.


Bring back Western Airlines!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22738 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Well I certainly won't miss the ex-SHT (SHuTtle) 737s...

User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2682 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22348 times:



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
I wonder how many 744s will be parked, and if they will ever return to service with UA.

Once they're parked, I highly doubt it.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5126 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21525 times:



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):


They both were founding members of their respective alliance.. perhaps they could be looking at starting something new?

CO was not a founding member of Skyteam, if they ally themselves with UA, it's off to Star for CO.



Ozark Flies Your Way
User currently offlineAAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21419 times:

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
- Is UA considering adding any long haul aircraft any time soon? Seems there might be some used 767s out there.

Why? When UA can buy/buys new planes again..... the 767 is prolly the first out of the fleet along w/ some very old A320s. If they get the 787/777LR. If they get the A380(Yuk) the 744 is out.


I knew the 747 parking was coming........ After LAX-HKG was canceled and IAD-PEK is going to a 777, I was holding out hope of new routes. But Alas......

This is going to be weird, I always took flying on the 733 for granted and now after September, I may not have the chance to anymore

[Edited 2008-06-03 19:49:50]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23074 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21343 times:



Quoting UniTED (Reply 6):
apparently (from what i have heard) the tag flights within Asia are relatively low-yielding. I have been on several between SGN-HKG-SIN-NRT-BKK, etc.. and they are mostly relatively empty up front. cutting these routes (or a few of them) will eliminate some 744 usage while keeping longhaul nonstops to the USA from foreign points.

A lot (all?) of those tags really only need to cover the fuel and crew costs to make money, though, since the aircraft would otherwise sit in HKG or NRT all day. Throw in some cargo and you don't need great loads or yields to make money.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSunstar From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21246 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So what happens to all the pilots of those aircraft..?

User currently offlineSYfan100 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21092 times:

It's always sad when something happens like this.
However I am going to need to agree with the move on benching the Boeing 737-300s and 500s because now your domestic fleet is more simple with two different types of aircraft compared to three or four.
With the Boeing 747-400 I can understand with fuel and if infact some of those Asia routes are suffering passenger wise. However you bettter have enough Boeing 777-200ERs in your fleet to cover those routes with all the planes you grounded and at least a couple for back up if one goes down.
Before doing something like grounding aircraft. You need to look at the whole picture first. Not the short picture that has the sheet of paper that tells you how much money you will save bye grounding so many aircraft.


User currently offlineUnitedSuperDC8 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21091 times:



Quoting Sunstar (Reply 16):
So what happens to all the pilots of those aircraft..?

Why don't we wait until the official news is out before we speculate what will happen? United will probably have a press release very soon. Obviously there will be a reduction in force in all work groups. Let's wait and see how UA will manage the overages. Hopefully some voluntary packages will be offered to mitigate involuntary furloughs. However, most have been through this at least once. Fasten your seatbelts!



No thanks - keep the 'Change'.....Al Gore invented two things: the internet & global warming
User currently offlineImapilotaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21062 times:



Quoting Sunstar (Reply 16):
So what happens to all the pilots of those aircraft..?

Furlough notices I would imagine. 96 aircraft at 5 sets of crew per aircraft (2 pilot, 3 FA per crew) is roughly 960 pilots and 1440 Flight Attendants. Figure a loss of at least 20% of your corporate group as well, as this will be hacking out 20% of their fleet.

These cuts are deeper and more painful than thought.


User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 900 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day ago) and read 21038 times:



Quoting UnitedSuperDC8 (Reply 18):
Why don't we wait until the official news is out before we speculate what will happen? United will probably have a press release very soon. Obviously there will be a reduction in force in all work groups. Let's wait and see how UA will manage the overages. Hopefully some voluntary packages will be offered to mitigate involuntary furloughs. However, most have been through this at least once. Fasten your seatbelts!

Anyone know if NW is finally going to ground all their DC-9s? It seems astounding to me that they still plan to fly some with oil prices at these levels. Has there been a change in strategy regarding the DC-9s I'm not aware of or are they going to keep some in the fleet still?


User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1495 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day ago) and read 21009 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
A lot (all?) of those tags really only need to cover the fuel and crew costs to make money, though, since the aircraft would otherwise sit in HKG or NRT all day. Throw in some cargo and you don't need great loads or yields to make money.

Yep. And some of those tags operate with high load factors, like NRT-BKK (usually overbooked, but not the highest yielding). UA's strategy just less than 2 years ago was to expand the U.S. to Asia non-stops using 744/772 and fill some of the intra-Asia flights with 763's. I guess we'll never see that now. In fact, I'd expect to see some marginal cities cut both domestically and internationally. It's a no-brainer domestically with a quarter or so of their fleet being parked.

Sad stuff. We're witnessing history everyday as the World's largest airlines announce cut after cut.

Someone needs to invent a solar powered pax airplane  Smile



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day ago) and read 20854 times:

Apparently, the official word is coming tomorrow and its going to be ugly, real ugly.

70+ planes to be grounded
significant furlough

United is burning through cash at a horrendous pace and needs to take drastic action ASAP.


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day ago) and read 20824 times:

So how hard is it going to be for commuting pilots getting to base?

American's taking out 12%, United's getting rid of nearly 100 737s ... what kind of capacity situation is that going to leave all the commuters who depend on empty seats to get from home to domicile?



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineWhappeh From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day ago) and read 20733 times:

What are the odds of Furloughs coming in the future?


-Travel now, journey infinitely.
25 ANstar : Perhaps they may drop these services in favour of codesharing with V Australia?
26 AirCop : Somehow, I doubt this is a concern of any airline management. I just feel sorry for the junior crew members that will be out on the street.
27 DC8FanJet : UA doesn't have any "very old A320's", they're all fairly new.
28 Planespotting : Obviously this is not the concern - I wasn't saying it was. But really, it's a pretty crummy unintended consequence ... Unless, that is, the airlines
29 TrijetsRMissed : I have four NW flights scheduled in August. As of today, three of them will be on DC-9-30s, the oldest variant. I expect them to remain in service un
30 Glbltrvlr : I know someone else here stated that that the UA 744s are fine, but in light of the dispatch reliability (or lack thereof) I've personally experience
31 Zone1 : Domestically the cuts are already being placed in the books. I can see more cities only connected to only one UA hub instead of 2 or 3+. I don't know
32 Philly65 : The 744s are fuel hogs. 7 B744s is equal to 2 Asian trips and 1 European r/trip. The B744 flying LAX-HKG (2 airplanes) will be shifted to LAX-NRT. So
33 AirCop : I agree, but it's today's world. The old rule of thumb back in the days (1970's) the airlines really didn't want a load factor above 67%, as they fel
34 MasseyBrown : Life in Y is a whole lot more pleasant with those middle seats empty.
35 Egcarter : According to Reuters, UA will park 6 744's.
36 NWAESC : All of them? No-at least not yet. They have been planning to park some this fall (35 IIRC), and may add to that number. Well, they're paid for, so ev
37 ANstar : They have 30 in service currently? What routes currently have 744 flying? I presume routes like MEL- SYD-LAX would require 2 aircraft and SYD-SFO wou
38 NA : If UA could operate the 744 full they´be as economical as 772s. So why don´t they park 777 "A"s as in 2002? Frequency cuts would help. Now the US fr
39 Mir : It's definitely not now, but it might start to be when pilots just can't get to base for their trips. I would hope that they might help with relocati
40 Dispatchguy : For a long haul, a B744 burns about 50,000# in the first hour (climbing to cruise), and can average around 20,000# per hour at M0.84.
41 BrianDromey : CO founded a total of damn all. If UA and CO started a new alliance, who would their international partners be? Yea, they will definitely replace A32
42 Zkpilot : whoa! I almost choked when I first saw that then figured you of course meant lbs rather than kgs! That still seems a relatively high figure... I figu
43 UAL777UK : Harsh enviroment calls for harsh decisions, this is not just a UA thing. Will be interesting which International routes will be cut as a result of the
44 Christao17 : I'd imagine they've looked at the whole picture very carefully. This isn't a rash decision. Really? That seems like quite a retreat. NH and TG, maybe
45 UAL777UK : I dont see LAX-SYD being ditched. That would seem like one of the last to go IMHO.
46 Jfk777 : I find it difficult to believe what I am hearing, parking 6 744. If United stops flying to China, Hong Kong and Australia then park them all but to re
47 Post contains links United1 : Its official all 94 737s and 6 744s will be parked....80 by year end 08 rest by 09 1400-1600 jobs including the (500 already announced) (salaried and
48 JohnClipper : Also announced that Ted is DEAD.
49 Apodino : But yet Express capacity increases again? RJ's don't make sense at 120 dollar oil, so how is dumping capacity onto money losing RJs going to help anyt
50 CFMitch56 : Are the 737 pilots the lowest on the seniority ladder? I recall they were actually training new Airbus pilots within the past year or so. Does UA stil
51 Hiflyer : 100 frames going down by 2009 shud mean 1,000 pilots and 2,000 inflt....very roughly.....and not taking in account retirements and leaves....suspect t
52 VX4Ever : R.I.P TED I will miss those awsome colors flying over my house hear at ONT.
53 Aaron747 : The white elephant. All this means is that United management still is absolutely clueless about running an efficient operation.
54 Asiaflyer : Maybe this can give an idea about fuelconsumption for the 744s. According to LH's sustainability report 2007, LH's planes has following fuel consupti
55 NA : I´m sure freight operators will queue for those 744s if parking is not just a temporary measure of a few months.
56 Joeljack : So are these cuts temporary? If fuel comes back down to reasonable levels of $80-$90 a barrel, united proved that they made money the summer of 2007 a
57 AndyinPIT : Also announced that they are cutting management jobs somewhere in the tune of 1200, versus the 500 previously announced
58 NA : Others are cutting frequency too. Only less frequency, and therefore less competition, will bring prices up, the only way to survive for most airline
59 Drerx7 : So the end result of this is that the Ted 320s and more RJs will replace the 73s? Hmm...those RJs are going to be costly.
60 ARGinLON : Because they were probably empty. That's why. With oil in the 80's it may be OK to sell at such prices but with oil at over $120 is a different story
61 Ultrapig : I understand that in general four engined planes burn less fuel than two engine planes of the same size. But considering all costs (capital, cockpit c
62 STT757 : Here's a quote from GM's CEO yesterday regarding the impact of rising fuel prices on the US Auto industry which is being hurt as much if not more tha
63 AirCop : Again I am clueless just like UA's management, but I would guess the 744's involved fly SFO-LHR/FRA and the FRA/IAD routes.
64 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I doubt all of them will be back given the number of planes being retired... Where did you get that from? I agree....
65 Joeljack : The more I think about this, the more I think the high fuel prices are just an excuse for United to get leaner making them more appealing to sell the
66 Ramprat74 : United Streamlines Operations to Compete in Unprecedented Fuel Environment ---------------------------------------------------- Today we announced sig
67 SkyTeamTriStar : During the time that UA was in BK, could they've overhauled the company just a wee-bit more than just slap a new paint job on their planes? DL is just
68 Airbazar : Only? You're talking about the two costlier items in their operating budget. High fuel costs and high labor costs are the reason why UA and other Us
69 PHXmd80 : When did Joe leave Delta? PHXmd80
70 MasseyBrown : I don't think the route reductions will necessarily be the routes that the 747's are flying. For example, how about cutting ORD-South America for sta
71 Ikramerica : Well post 9/11, 744s were temporarily parked. So not sure what UA will do here, it's 7 years later but they don't have any new widebodies since then,
72 Mcdu : You mean the DL example of say.......SONG? Dl is going to have just as deep cuts if not deeper due to the overlap of the NW/DL operation. The ONLY re
73 UAL777UK : I was kind of thinking this as well, although on the SFO-LHR route, the 747 only runs for summer. I am not sure about the other routes. So basically
74 Imapilotaz : Um, you also have your Maintenance expenses that are Flight Hour and Cycle driven such as Landing Gear, APU, Engines, reserves for heavy checks, etc.
75 Caspritz78 : To be honest people what Actually more. I read you need about 5 crews to operate a plane continuously. This is because of the maximum hours the crew i
76 Planefxr : Basically I think he is saying TED should have went bye-bye during BK. After Anderson came on board.
77 Post contains images AAH732UAL : The A320(A319/320) and 737(733/735) are the same on the list for new hires. Pilots had a choice of either the 737 or A320(Most picked the A320 b/c a
78 AADC10 : UA parked some 744s before and later returned them to service. I wonder if the six are leased and are being returned? Really? Where did you get that
79 PlaneHunter : It depends on the yields - a 744 filled up with cheap Y tickets doesn't help. The fuel price makes a difference today. 777As are perfect workhorses f
80 EXAAUADL : that doesnt save anything, plus it only dilutes SFO.
81 ERAUgrad02 : What are the odds that UA would allow their regional partners to fly 76-78 seat aircraft to help with the small capacity loss after they bring TED A32
82 Imapilotaz : Why would they want to? The whole point is to remove capacity on routes. If they are cutting domestic capacity by 18%, the best thing they can hope f
83 PanAm330 : I know that - but this environment is much worse when compared to the post-9/11 one when they last parked some 744s. Let's not forget that they sold
84 DC8FanJet : I would guess that the -400's being parked in 2009 are the aircraft that are due for heavy maintenance next year. Major expense avoided as well as sav
85 PSA53 : My two cents....IMO It's devastating news and will get worse and should send a wake up call message to everyone in the industry that......next entry..
86 Ikramerica : Silliness. The future is for aircraft to continue to use oil, and OTHER industries to use alternatives. It is far easier for power plants, autos (and
87 Bmacleod : It all depend on where crude is headed next - $200 and you can pretty much bring in the apocalypse and shut down the airline industry and move to high
88 PSA53 : Agreed.Right now,as discussed in another thread,the price frenzy of oil could go bust and be back below $100.Because this is a investor business reac
89 Olympic472 : It seems that United management is finally tackling the business challenges head-on. My wish is for United and other airlines to come out of these try
90 Mcdu : That is absolutely incorrect information. The junior Captain in the last year has at a minimum 10 years of Seniority at UAL. Please stop posting the
91 UA772IAD : I agree with you here. I believe that if/when fuel prices stabilise, those 744s will return back to service... they are very much needed in the fleet
92 StarGoldLHR : Having done loads of UA 744 routes over the years... the ones in my opinion to go will be Services to TPE SFO-LHR 744 downsize to a 777 1 Route to NRT
93 StarGoldLHR : 2001 saw the end of those 6x daily 727 routes, MD11's & MD80's... since these have crept back to 3x daily ERJ / CRJ outsourced routes... and the migra
94 Ctermua : Somewhere in the employee newswire they mentioned a new VP of Ops...Joe Kolshak, apparently coming from Delta. Anyone know anything about him? They se
95 UA772IAD : I just heard 7 744s will be grounded. If it's not the lease jets, I bet it will be the "oldest" 744s: 171 ('89) 173 ('89) 174 ('90) 175 ('90) 177 ('9
96 UA772IAD : 250,000 question though, where do these 777s come from? The fleet is already stretched thin. 767s are tied up on ORD/IAD Europe routes that can't sup
97 TWA1985 : The grounding of the 737-300 feels really strange since that aircraft was brand new when I was born in January of 1985, only entering service about a
98 UA772IAD : It will be much bigger and deeper than that. In 2001, the fleet was much larger. This will have a watershed effect. At this stage, you can’t drasti
99 B777ER : I posted this on 05.27.08: It might be back. FWIW, perusing a msg board the other day, a pilot whose sister works in UA senior mgt blabbered on a publ
100 StarGoldLHR : I reckon you'll see some upscaling of smaller aircraft.. who knows Maybe A320's will replace 757's on some routes, and allow 757's to do more deomest
101 WorldTraveler : There are still only 3 major European airlines that would form the primary partners for any alliance. The EU wants a lot fewer of the dozens of small
102 Post contains images AAH732UAL : Sorry for living, As you read next, I said or something like that She could not recall exact numbers. Someones having a bad day [Edited 2008-06-04 13
103 UnitedSuperDC8 : I am certainly taking that for what it's worth -
104 UnitedSuperDC8 : I have to disagree with you. United has lead the way this year in reducing capacity and increasing fares. This is positioning United to survive the d
105 PSU.DTW.SCE : Interesting you mention the May traffic numbers that came out last night, they were indeed awful. NW's were released today, and overall looked pretty
106 Cubsrule : It's a virtual certainty that there is flying which is profitable with oil at $65 which is not profitable with oil at $115. Seemingly, the only relev
107 UA772IAD : I'll bite for the sake of argument, and boredom at work... Domestic capacity reductions or cuts (at least in the past) have led to new or other airli
108 Trex8 : what happens to the 737 fleet pilots, they get laid off?
109 Ikramerica : Yes, but it is still a matter of physics. Air travel doesn't use a lot of fuel to begin with when you take overall fuel use into account. And it's on
110 Cubsrule : I agree with you about the past, but I wonder how the price of oil will affect that phenomenon, and I can't claim to have an answer to that besides t
111 DesertAir : I wonder if Tucson will loose its daily UA mainline flight to Denver? US is cutting its two Las Vegas flights on Mesa.
112 MaverickM11 : I bet in one week you'll be singing a different tune
113 United1 : Agreed SuperDC8 UA is doing exactly what it needs to do in order to make it through the downturn. Airlines that have not yet begun to react and are p
114 WorldTraveler : then why is their LF continuing to fall despite reducing capacity? There is no defensible reason UA should not be turning the operation around. They
115 Cubsrule : Seems like a Hobson's choice... damned if you do, damned if you don't.
116 777fan : Hmmm, and just exactly who is going to fund the multi-billion dollar infrastructure development to support that? You need only look at Amtrak to see
117 WorldTraveler : The Wall Street Journal has an article today stating that an increasing number of commodities traders believe oil and other commodities (grains, meta
118 Post contains links MaverickM11 : That's only the beginning apparently. http://www.startribune.com/business/...12034.html?location_refer=Business
119 Av8rDAL : UA's grounding of the older 733s is agreeable, but the benching of 744s and losses of transoceanic routes and revenue will hurt. Makes me think about
120 FlyPNS1 : The primary difference between DL and UA is that DL (and NW) did a better job of cost cutting while in bankruptcy. That's the primary reason for them
121 CIDflyer : I can't help to think the oil industry would be shooting itself in the foot by letting it get that high. If airlines shut down and people stop drivin
122 B777ER : Well whether you UA fanboys like it or not, a legacy going Chapter 7 is just what the US aviation market needs to let the rest of them have a fighting
123 Ikramerica : Not just the WSJ, but all over the world. Once it spiked so quickly the last couple of months it was quite obvious that it was a bubble, but the ques
124 Tozairport : You know the old saying... "Opinions are like A--------s, everybody has one." You opinion fits that saying to a "T". Do you know that fall is only 3
125 DC8FanJet : Hardly, but keep dreaming........
126 WorldTraveler : yes, and DL announced theirs months ago. They aren't in panic mode and they aren't laying off thousands of employees. They had the opportunity to off
127 United1 : That may be the problem, shouldn't they be in panic mode? When DL announced their cutbacks oil was no where near what the current price is, if DL is
128 LACA773 : What will UA do with routes that use 733/735s heavily: i.e., LAX-SFO/DEN/SEA, multiple routes out of SFO, many from DEN and ORD. Will the hourly shutt
129 RwSEA : UA has a lot of problems from where I'm sitting. I don't know the answers but I can at least provide info on what I'm seeing at SEA. UA has historical
130 B777ER : This is why I hope oil stays above 120 dollars a barrel. Yes I said "hope" and "above" and "120 dollars a barrel". Reason? We NEED to find alternativ
131 Planefxr : NW did a good job of restructuring those leases, originally 1.5 million/month renogiated down to less than 500 thousand/month. 16 747-400's at 1,000,
132 United Airline : Is this temporary or is this for good? Guess it's temporary right?
133 FreequentFlier : This has been said countless times but ill-informed commentators continue to believe otherwise: load factors DO NOT MATTER! They are irrelevant. You
134 ARGinLON : Yes. RASM is very important but they are also other departments within an airline which would put pressure to have higher LFs that may drive to lower
135 Post contains links and images RwSEA : Here's a poor article from the Seattle Times ... I didn't know UA flew SEA-SAT and SEA-FRA, and SEA-JAX  . http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...olo
136 Christao17 : That makes you feel old. What made me feel old was when you wrote this: Wishful thinking. Even if they are heading in that direction, recent reports
137 Alangirvan : Sorry if someone has commented on this, and I have not read it yet.... does parked mean parked in the desert, never to fly again, or perhaps sold to a
138 Burkhard : I expect many of the 733 to go the Asia - there is enough demand, and there are still many 732 to replace. I also expect that head hunters from betwee
139 Ikramerica : 735s are also fantastic replacements for 732s as they are roughly the same size. 733 is larger, but also has better CASM. But 735 is a good plane, an
140 Dispatchguy : Google the words "bakken formation" The oil bubble will burst - and I will be gleeful.
141 Christao17 : The Indy MOC shut down after 9/11. My father was one of the people who was offered a "better retire now, since you're already close to retirement" de
142 LGAUAOK : Just a side note, but Chicago made it to the final 4 today for cities to host the 2016 Olympic's. Could be a boom for UA in 2016, I wonder what they w
143 727LOVER : I read the first 40 or so replies, I am confused. The OP says the -300 are being retired, but in subsequent posts the -500 are mentioned. So, are the
144 United1 : Yes all 64 737-300s and all 30 737-500s are being retired....the entire 737 fleet.
145 NA : Maybe, but still the 737-500 is one of the worst fuel guzzlers around. I have the LH Balance 2007 report in front of me, the 737-500 and less so, the
146 Mcdu : Again, poor information. Most of those "young" guys have over 10 years with the company, see the writing on the wall and want to get a type rating an
147 Ikramerica : It is more efficient than the 732s it would replace in those markets. It's all relative. And the 736 is even worse!
148 Ocracoke : Three weeks ago, oil was high. As stated in another thread, DL closed the volunteer layoff package three weeks ago. Was it two (?) weeks ago DL annou
149 F9Animal : This is awful to hear about the job losses. Thanks again to those that are profiting nicely on oil, our industry is falling apart. Folks, this supply
150 Post contains images Jacobin777 : 1-forward contracts (say 2011-2012) certainly supports higher prices. 80%-90% is due to fundamentals..even if we take 20 of oil as "speculation", tha
151 United1 : Totally agreed, all the airlines are going to be trimming quite a bit going forward, I was more trying to make the point that if WorldTraveler thinks
152 PITIngres : Note of caution here: surely that's per seat, not per passenger. It only becomes per passenger when you plant a warm butt in the seat. If you can't c
153 B777ER : Sorry to burst your bubble but I have read up on the bakken oil. After the USGS report came out last month, recoverable oil is less than 4 billion ba
154 Post contains links United1 : Yes and no, the bakkens have just under 4 billion barrels of oil that are recoverable using current technology at profitable levels. However there ar
155 WorldTraveler : no they do not need to panic. eliminating 10% of capacity 6 months in advance and eliminating 10% of capacity on 2 months notice yields the same reve
156 Hiflyer : huh?
157 RampRat74 : I have a feeling that SEA-NRT and HNL-NRT are going bye-bye. These are two PTP routes that they can cut, to free up a couple of 777's to replace the 7
158 United1 : I'm going to assume that you ment load factor not capacity for what you should be able to boost. UA has been extremely aggressive in raising fares th
159 Planefxr : I would expect to see 773's on DL property as well. I believe that approximately a half dozen or so of NW's 744's are less than 10 years old some as
160 777fan : Dunno about that - IIRC, HNL-NRT does really well...in LF and yield! Feel free to correct me (anyone) if I'm wrong. 777fan
161 Flybynight : I heard SEA is getting more UA flights (on the news yesterday in fact). Seattle's economy is doing well and a lot of that is due to business in Asia.
162 WorldTraveler : yes... thank you. I can't type and have someone talking to me at the same time. Yes, if you reduce capacity, LF should be able to be pushed up. Every
163 Planefxr : Not to this extreme, not even close. Couple the fact that the economy is struggling and you have the perfect storm. Given the lack of liquidity in th
164 United1 : Only if everything else stays the same, the moment you start throwing fare increases into the mix LF starts dropping. Yes and 1st quarter is traditio
165 DeltaL1011man : True shame...........good new though 737s just got alot cheaper. What are the chances of NW pick up these 744s? maybe turning them into 744BCFs?
166 LAXintl : United has not clarified if the 6 will be leased or owned birds. Of the current fleet of 30, 21 are owned. However if UA follows what it did post 9/1
167 Jacobin777 : ..my point was not because the value of the dollar decreased (my comment below suggested the relation between oil and the dollar), my point was who w
168 DeltaL1011man : Thanks LAXintl. I guess it was more wishful thinking. Not so much on the PAX side but 6 new 744BCFs would be nice for NW Cargo and they could replace
169 United Airline : So these planes will return to service with UA one day once the oil prices go down a bit right?
170 United1 : Anything is possible but more then likely once they are retired they are going to be gone for good from UAs fleet.
171 Hiflyer : My understanding of the ac retirements is that UA is attempting to put in a clause that they cannot be used against UA...for the 737 fleet probably no
172 United Airline : The B 737-300s might not be back again. But what about the B 747-400s? They need them and they aren't that old.......... Seems that UA is in a mess.
173 Dispatchguy : I cant see them dropping HNLNRT; that is a very popular route with Japanese tourists from the Home Islands, and like was said earlier, doing very well
174 UAL777UK : Gone where....the bank, Starbucks, shopping? He is not going anywhere in the immediate future unless IMHO something happens dramatically, possibly as
175 Post contains links United1 : On a bit more of a positive note UA is adding 10 additional daily flights to Hawaii for the Summer travel season beginning June 15th and does not plan
176 WorldTraveler : yes, but every other carrier has taken fare increases and still managed to increase LFs. Why do you continue to think that UA is supposed to be given
177 United1 : Excuse me? How am I or anyone else on this board responsible for UA anymore then you are responsible for DL? Cause just as a reminder in case you hav
178 LAXintl : Not according to Glen Hauenstein Per his last chat transcript available on dlnet;
179 WorldTraveler : Revenue per ASM on a mileage adjusted basis. It's the industry standard for comparing financial performance between airlines. yes, after they merge w
180 UA772IAD : I would like to see proof that eliminating the 747 base at IAD will save any money (aside from fuel efficency in switching to the 777, which has a low
181 Planefxr : That info is Q4. Old chat. Worldtraveler is correct 101 percent as of April 08.
182 United1 : I don't know who told you that you have to "adjust" CASM numbers but that may be the root of your problem of posting information on here that is just
183 UnitedSuperDC8 : I think there are several reasons. United has decided to remove 747s from the fleet and needs to cut somewhere. By keeping them in LAX/SFO/ORD they c
184 Planefxr : It is basically average, you are right. Keep in mind that DL 18 months ago was at 85 percent of average, pretty pathetic. International expansion and
185 United1 : Yeah totally agreed about going one step forward and two steps back in this environment fuel is whats killing all the air carriers right now, and a 1
186 MasseyBrown : Delta doesn't make that claim in their 10-Q filed two days later: "Revenue per available seat mile (“RASM”) improvement. We have made significant
187 Jacobin777 : No its not.. Not by much and not for too long. It what sense does DL have "far more staying power"? If UA cut costs and eventually become profitable,
188 Planefxr : Do you have a list? Or where can someone find that information. DL claims to have 101 percent of industry average RASM as of 4/08.
189 DeltaL1011man : I pretty sure that this was on DLnet.......but I have seen this too
190 Planefxr : Yeah, I seen DL's numbers. I was wondering if there was an industry wide reference that compared all carriers, you know sort of a one stop overview?
191 WorldTraveler : that is their full year goal. They have met it for the 1st quarter. We'll see how they do for the next 3 but they are well on track. no, we're talkin
192 Planefxr : I really don't think DL industry average RASM whether current or forward looking is SEC sensitive material, and yes by the way they have mentioned on
193 United1 : Were talking about a carrier that filed for BK before DL and NW did of course UAs costs are going to be higher, DL and NW saw what UAs (and the rest
194 WorldTraveler : but UA didn't get its costs under control during its BK. They didn't turn their business around when they got out of BK despite having been in BK for
195 United1 : But neither has DL, or have you forgotten that DL is not profitable. UA and DL both had operating profits in 06 and 07 however neither of them are go
196 Airborne1 : Hi, it's Glenn and it's Wednesday, June 4, and I'm calling from Chicago to continue our communication of the actions necessary for us to successfully
197 Planefxr : Ted should have gone during BK. Airlines within an Airline have never worked. It adds cost lowers yield all while diminishing brand recognition. Song
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