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Delta To Reduce ATL-PVG Service  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24788 posts, RR: 46
Posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15159 times:

Delta has filled with the DOT to reduce frequency on its awarded ATL-PVG service which commenced on March 30, 2008.

Delta has requested permission to reduce the current daily service to 5x beginning approximately November 7th.

Delta advises "fuel cost increases have had disastrous financial consequences" necessitating the changes.

OST-2007-28567


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
247 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15101 times:

Triming the fat wherever they can I guess...


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15028 times:

Not much of a surprise. ICN isn't daily either. Both flights should be tailored to meet demand. The question now is: where will the excess 777 lift be utilized?

User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 953 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15029 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta advises "fuel cost increases have had disastrous financial consequences" necessitating the changes.

Isn't that the basis US used over a week ago as well?


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7493 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14964 times:

Im not really surprised. For all that the flight has found some success, that doesnt mean that theres the demand for daily service.

5x weekly isnt that much of a decrease anyway. However, it should force to mind that nobody is safe from the current state of the industry, DL included. This is probably just the beginning and I would expect more cuts to come from their direction.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 883 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14901 times:

I thought Delta announced they were making incredible ammounts of money on cargo on this route. I think I even remember reading that it broke a record within the first month it operated.

User currently offlineOlegShv From Sweden, joined Mar 2006, 683 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14560 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta has requested permission to reduce the current daily service to 5x beginning approximately November 7th.

Makes sense to me. Olympics will be over and there will be less tourists.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3545 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14186 times:

I have no idea why my last post in this thread was deleted, but I'll ask the question again....

Is this route exclusive to the -LR or the -ER, or both?



PHX based
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8892 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14030 times:



Quoting 777STL (Reply 9):
Is this route exclusive to the -LR or the -ER, or both?

It's an -ER route for the time being - the -LRs are dedicated to BOM-JFK, but that's not to say equipment subs don't happen (a couple of weeks ago I saw one of the -LRs doing an ATL-DXB turn).


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14007 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):
Not much of a surprise. ICN isn't daily either. Both flights should be tailored to meet demand. The question now is: where will the excess 777 lift be utilized?

There isnt much you can do with 2/7 a 777 internationally.


User currently offlineBa744phx From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13679 times:

hmm well I think maybe they should be stripped from this route since they cant full fill their agreement that they had. It runs into the same issue people are giving US and UA about their routes rewarded. They were giving the route to operate daily if they cant it should be rewarded to an airline that can operate a daily schedule from US-CHINA.

User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13678 times:

Could this make US Airways rethink their route to PVG ex PHL? Might save them a lot of money all things considered.
Can anybody tell me if they can then keep the DOT route for a while?



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight: AMS-FRA-AMS
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13650 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
Im not really surprised. For all that the flight has found some success, that doesnt mean that theres the demand for daily service.

All said and done, I think SEA or LAX would have attracted more passengers than ATL in the first place if USDOT would have gone along with either of those over ATL.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13647 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 12):
All said and done, I think SEA or LAX would have attracted more passengers than ATL in the first place if USDOT would have gone along with either of those over ATL.

I think ATLPVG is a tough market in the first place, regardless of fuel. Fuel is a convenient excuse though, and will continue to be an excuse for many cuts in the future. "We weren't going to cut anything in the merger, but now that fuel is $130/barrel....goodbye MEM/CVG!"



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13564 times:



Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 5):
I thought Delta announced they were making incredible ammounts of money on cargo on this route. I think I even remember reading that it broke a record within the first month it operated.

Delta announced it was carrying a lot of air cargo east bound PVG-ATL, but never said they were making money on the trip let alone "incredible amounts of money". That was the pundits on A. net who said that.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13298 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
"We weren't going to cut anything in the merger, but now that fuel is $130/barrel....goodbye MEM/CVG!"

Well and honestly, record fuel prices or not, is there anyone here who actually believed that MEM/CVG were going to remain hubs in the long run? I agree that fuel will be used an excuse but, if not for high fuel prices, I'm certain that they would have found some other excuse to unload both.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 14):
Delta announced it was carrying a lot of air cargo east bound PVG-ATL, but never said they were making money on the trip let alone "incredible amounts of money". That was the pundits on A. net who said that.

That's correct! DL never has said whether or not PVG is profitable for them but they did announce that they are carrying record cargo loads on the route. Loads have been picking up and the flight is probably doing OK but given the high price of fuel, who knows. Personally, I think we're going to see more airlines announcing reduction of service in limited entry markets hence yesterday's request to the DOT.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7493 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13296 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
I think ATLPVG is a tough market in the first place, regardless of fuel. Fuel is a convenient excuse though, and will continue to be an excuse for many cuts in the future. "We weren't going to cut anything in the merger, but now that fuel is $130/barrel....goodbye MEM/CVG!"

It really is. ULH point to points with small local markets (reguardless of connections) are going to be tough to make work given the direction things are going. Im sure DL can do it, but its going to be tough.

Its beginning to make me thing NW's NRT hub is going to be of great value to the combined airline. Given that our industry taking a turn for the worse is a reality and that its going to be hard to make certain ULH routes work, routing everyone through NRT might be a good solution. NRT is a much easier market to make work from second tier markets (ATL, DFW, IAH, DTW, etc.- basically anything that isnt LAX, SFO, NYC, or ORD). PVG and PEK are a little bit harder.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13213 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 12):
All said and done, I think SEA or LAX would have attracted more passengers than ATL in the first place if USDOT would have gone along with either of those over ATL.

they already have China service. Also with LAX or SEA as a gateway and not a major hub, the benefots to the US as a whole would have ben much less than from a hub like ORD, DFW, ATL.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10342 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13208 times:



Quoting Ba744phx (Reply 10):
hmm well I think maybe they should be stripped from this route since they cant full fill their agreement that they had. It runs into the same issue people are giving US and UA about their routes rewarded. They were giving the route to operate daily if they cant it should be rewarded to an airline that can operate a daily schedule from US-CHINA.

Was this actually one of the requirements of the DOT, that it be operated 7X a week? If another carrier takes over and then decides they can't operate it daily, then what? Who do you award it to and on what basis, just because they say they can? In these times, I don't think the DOT is going to punish anyone for reducing the service.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24788 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13173 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 18):
Was this actually one of the requirements of the DOT, that it be operated 7X a week?

Yes -- There is a limit on available frequencies between the US and China, with the DOT having awarded DL the route designation based on daily service.

Basically for instance if DL would have applied for the the service with less then daily flights, compared to another airline willing to operate daily service, its submission would be seriously handicapped as the DOTs goal is to maximize use of these limited designations.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13013 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
basically anything that isnt LAX, SFO, NYC, or ORD

I think you could place SEA, BOS and IAD into the mix of 1st tier for China.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7493 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13007 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
I think you could place SEA, BOS and IAD into the mix of 1st tier for China.

Not quite, but almost. The undisputed king of traffic to Asia from the US is LAX. SFO and NYC produce around the same amount of traffic and ORD is behind that. Those are the cities I consider to be first tier, but I guess its all in how you measure it. Then you get cities like SEA, BOS, IAD, IAH, DFW, ATL, DTW, etc.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinePlanefxr From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12833 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta has requested permission to reduce the current daily service to 5x beginning approximately November 7th.

You did not mention that Delta states that it wants to reduce seasonally from Nov-May and resume to daily for the peak summer season.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12642 times:

whether you philosophically dislike DL's request or not, no one is going to be able to do anything with 2 frequencies per week and if DL faced the threat of losing the route, they would surely fly it anyway.

While I don't like the idea of granting blanket waivers to protect int'l routes, it is likely these reductions will happen. Hard to say what else will be dropped by other carriers but 2X/week for reductions on a new route seems relatively mild compared to some of the cuts other carriers are proposing.

And 2X/week reductions is enough to send the plane to GRU for those 2 days or fly double daily to TLV during the peak winter period... or LOS.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12562 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):


Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
basically anything that isnt LAX, SFO, NYC, or ORD

I think you could place SEA, BOS and IAD into the mix of 1st tier for China.

No, you probably couldn't. They might have more than other markets, but they don't match the first tier.



a.
25 RwSEA : This route was a crappy choice from the beginning. ATL just simply is not a logical gateway to Asia. No way, no how. Where's our hysterical, L-1011-lo
26 Cell7481 : I took this flight in April on a long weekend. The pilots posted an informaiton sheet about our flight on both legs. The ATL-PVG segment had us weighe
27 Flynavy : Oh yeah? Then who should get United's delayed route to CAN? US's route to PEK? Perhaps they should rebid as well?
28 LAXintl : The CAN award was uncontested to begin with. and not a single carrier has opposed UAL delaying the service. So there is not much the DOT could do any
29 RwSEA : duplicate post. .[Edited 2008-06-04 22:32:32]
30 RwSEA : You obviously didn't read my post carefully as you'll see that I did in fact mention US and indicated that they should be rebid as well. UA to CAN is
31 LAXdude1023 : I think youre too smart to know that what youve just said is an illogical arguement. No one else besides UA wanted to fly to CAN. The won the authori
32 Flynavy : You're right, I'll own up to it. My statement wasn't logical. As for whats in the American public's "immediate interest" - I would argue that a tailo
33 LAXdude1023 : I think youre absolutely right. I see no harm in going from daily to 5x weekly, especially in such hard times. Daily might be more than the route nee
34 Jetlanta : A year ago, ATL-PVG would have forecasted out as losing money in Year 1 regardless of where fuel was. However, it is enormously strategically importan
35 SW733 : The business philosophy today with regards to China seems to be "start it and they will come". It's the hot spot for business right now, and with the
36 MAH4546 : For the second time in the past few years.
37 Jetlanta : Sort of makes a seasonal pull down of 2 weekly frequencies during a time of record fuel prices look like a non-event.
38 LAXintl : Except that China is very much a limited entry market, while anyone can reduce/add HKG flying at will without such barriers.
39 TWFirst : IND too, no?
40 BCA2005 : and 9W: SFO
41 Jetlanta : Which is not the least bit relevant if the DOT grants the Delta request. Correct? Otherwise, Delta will continue to operate daily at a heavier loss.
42 Misbeehavin : I live in Atlanta and so of course I fly DL all the time. And I'm not the biggest Delta fan, but even after all these years, the sheer scale of Delta
43 LAXintl : Sure its very relevant. Being a limited entry market there could hypothetically be an entrant or established party that would like, and could make fu
44 Evan767 : Isn't this being reduced simply because Delta needs the aircraft for ATL-KWI? We all should have inferred some kind of cut had to come when Delta anno
45 LAXdude1023 : You could look at it that way and there might be some truth to it. However what DL probably did was take the weakest link (i.e. the one that was): Gi
46 MaverickM11 : I think that would be a violation of the DOT order
47 Ocracoke : All DL is doing is asking permission. If the DOT says "yes", then DL will go to 5x weekly. If the DOT says "no", then DL will continue with 7x weekly.
48 Jetlanta : But, my point is the same as this... So it really makes no difference. Delta is not going to abandon PVG and the DOT is very likely going to give Del
49 MAH4546 : DOT will likely grant the dormancy, but under the condition that if another carrier wants the frequencies, they can ask for them, with Delta having r
50 RwSEA : While I agree with your point, these two are served from JFK only. But you are right that DL has done a good job of building up ATL. Without the DL h
51 Jetlanta : Precisely. They don't want the frequencies for the same reason Delta is asking for dormancy. China is a bit over-saturated at the moment and record f
52 WorldTraveler : yes, and despite what ever other airilne fanboy wants to believe, DL's hub at ATL is the most GLOBAL hub in the US. It has more international destina
53 FlyDeltaJets87 : Are you saying Atlanta and probably much of the South in general is some piss-stain on the map? CVG has been going downhill slowly over the past coup
54 LAXintl : Thank you, exactly what I am in the process of doing with a DC attorney filling a comment opposing the industry request to vacate normal dormany term
55 LAXdude1023 : With all due respect, what a stupid interpritation of what I said. Where the hell did you get that from? I said nothing of the sort. I question how y
56 Mayor : Obviously, you have an agenda and it looks slanted against DL. So, who do you propose could operate this route (that isn't already doing so) 7x a wee
57 MAH4546 : Re-read his post. He is talking about the combined application from AA, DL and others that he is opposing - an application which should be rejected i
58 Mayor : My mistake. However, what I said can still apply to the industry as a whole. How is it being held captive if all the airlines in the application are
59 FlyDeltaJets87 : Then why is Delta "defying logic" at ATL? My interpretation of what you're saying is a polite way of saying just that- Atlanta and presumably much of
60 MAH4546 : Southwest, Spirit, JetBlue, and Virgin America, who have not (yet) asked to join, could use frequencies to open up flights to Mexico and northern Sou
61 LAXdude1023 : Delta defies logic at ATL, because quite frankly, it wouldnt be able to support the number of destinations without the huge hub that DL has built up.
62 WorldTraveler : no need to keep arguing the point about the size of the ATL market. The fact is that DL operates the world's largest hub IN ATL. It connects more citi
63 FlyDeltaJets87 : I'm not saying it was you, but I remember posts on here, from well before when I was a member of this site, when airlines were bidding for China slot
64 LAXdude1023 : What makes Atlanta special in the world of aviation is the hub DL has that. As a city, its comparable with Dallas. Its about as international and pro
65 Luv2cattlecall : Whew...I always hated having to watch out for DL wake turbulence going out of Hampton Roads Exec. Airport in Virginia!
66 OA412 : Way off topic, but you just reminded me of a hilarious old 'Futurama' episode where they visit the ancient city of Atlanta and pretty much the only t
67 777STL : Yeah, but don't kid yourself, ATL wouldn't be a 1/4 of what it is now if it weren't for DL.
68 Jetlanta : The funny thing is that it absolutely does NOT defy logic. Logic says that a geographically well-situated, decent-sized market can become a major hub
69 WorldTraveler : regardless of whether it is logical or not: DL's presence in ATL is not shrinking and its list of global destinations served just keeps growing. Other
70 LAXdude1023 : Hey, youll get no arguement from me there. If they were, only NYC, LAX, and ORD would have hubs.
71 MaverickM11 : Even all the flow in the world is not making PVG work
72 Flynavy : Oh my, how intelligent. The flight (like countless others in the system) is getting a SEASONAL adjustment down to 5x per week from 7. What part of th
73 Jacobin777 : They can connect every city in the world but it doesn't make a difference if they lose money. Profitability is the single most important aspect. I fi
74 Cubsrule : But any way you dice it, ATL is NOT geographically well-situated as an Asia hub. And yet, DL has made it work. That defies logic (in a very good way)
75 FlyDeltaJets87 : Well, with the fourth most populous state to the south (Florida), Georgia itself, North Carolina (about the same population as Georgia) and the rest
76 777STL : I was thinking the same thing. When AA was the biggest airline, "it didn't mean jack, because DL was the most profitable airline in the US". Now that
77 Jetlanta : Completely and utterly wrong. ATL is a well-positioned hub to connect the Southeastern U.S. to Asia. But far more importantly, in terms of revenue, A
78 B752OS : His assertion is not completely and utterly wrong, it actually makes sense to an extent. For the SE USA yes, ATL is great. But for the Northeast, Mid
79 LAXdude1023 : That in itself wouldnt be near enough to warrant flights to Asia. But when you combine it with this, I can agree with you. So? Other than the names o
80 Flynavy : [quote=LAXdude1023,reply=79][quote]That's all fine and dandy, but, what is the point of your post? Delta is now a player on the global stage. We're fl
81 Jetlanta : And what you fail to realize is that just as ATL doesn't serve the Northeast-Asia market well, ORD, DTW, etc...don't serve the GIG-Asia market well.
82 LAXdude1023 : I really dont care. DL can fly to every point in the world, I still wont fly them because they dont fly the routes that I fly the most. Nothing again
83 DeltaL1011man : its good to be back I have to argee with you on this. Atlanta is not really positioned for a Asia hub. Atlanta is positioned to pick up traffic from F
84 Jacobin777 : [quote=Flynavy,reply=80][quote=LAXdude1023,reply=79] Flynavy, this is not a "pissing" contest. .DL is flying to Asia....great...DL flies here, there a
85 LAXdude1023 : I agree full heartedly with you! There is absolutely nothing wrong with a seasonal reduction, especially given the way things are with the industry.
86 DeltaL1011man : Thats a.net for you.....I still think you need to make your way out here someday and give DL a chance.
87 LAXdude1023 : Oh, believe me I have. My ex-girl is from Woodstock, GA. I used to fly LAX-ATL on DL every three weeks, rent a car, and make the drive up to Cherokee
88 DeltaL1011man : thats a fun drive......really fun in the Atlanta traffic......but im sure you would know all about traffic Well if/when the NW merger is done maybe w
89 LAXdude1023 : LAX is a tough market to crack, but I believe that with UA backing out of HKG, there is room for one more, but the competition here is cutthroat. DL
90 777STL : In some capacities, ATL is *NOT* the end all be all hub of the entire world. It's great for South America, Europe, and Africa. But not so great for A
91 OA412 : Agreed! However, I honestly don't think that anyone truly believes tht ATL is the be all end all. Given the varying geographic regions in which they
92 MCOAviationFan : I would have thought that JFK-NRT would be one of the first priorities for DL either before or after the merger. Then a 2nd ATL-NRT. Is that how you
93 Mayor : The truth hurts, doesn't it? It's funny how the CO fans can come on here and brag and praise on their airline but as soon as a DL fan does it, they g
94 MaverickM11 : The DOT award requires them to operate it daily, and they forecasted it as a daily route, nevermind the whole campaign to win PVG. The fact that they
95 Flynavy : If DL goes twice daily to Incheon, on some days of the week there will be three daily flights - remember that Korean Air serves ATL nonstop from ICN
96 Evan767 : Yes, that's typically how these threads about DL turn out. A message board fight between fans of one airline and another. Pretty sad.
97 B752OS : Pure saturation and DL will struggle to get the connecting pax to fill the flights because the local demand sure won't even come close to filling 3 f
98 MCOAviationFan : DL wants to adjust this route because it is their newest 777 route and has not fully developed yet. This is not telling at all. Jetlanta has explaine
99 OA412 : I think there's been some confusion. I took the 2 daily to ICN to mean 1 daily DL flight and 1 daily KE flight not a daily DL flight on top of the 4
100 MaverickM11 : Aka it's not doing well. They have no plane, plus oil, plus the market size is small
101 Ocracoke : People. Some common sense here! Obviously, ATL is not the be-all, end-all hub for all traffic to Asia. That would be like saying that the best way to
102 FFlyer : I have understood that getting a visa to China has become more and more difficult just lately for the Americans and Europeans. You need an invitation
103 Corinthians : Lost in the midst of this heated argument is the fact that ATL (and just about every other US hub) are not so good to transfer from Latin America to A
104 Jacobin777 : What "hurts"? What does this have to do with "CO fans"? I was talking about particular people who "double talk"..... Personally I dont' care who's th
105 Jetlanta : Why not both JFK-NRT #1 and ATL-NRT #2? As I've said several times on this forum, ATL-ICN is a strong performer. It's not daily yet because for mostl
106 Mayor : Why is it "double talk"? When they were only #3, DL was one of the most profitable, if not the most profitable, U.S. legacy carrier in history. Now,
107 MaverickM11 : So what you're saying is that it's not doing well DXB didn't require a route allocation proceeding. DL knew from the beginning that it would have to
108 Mayor : I can't give you the exact booking figures, but they look pretty good to me.
109 MCOAviationFan : I wouldn't necessarily extrapolate that conclusion. It is a new route. Most new routes take time to develop. When all the China routes were awarded,
110 MCOAviationFan : Sounds good to me! I agree that ATL - ICN is a strong performer. I was just surprised that a second daily flight would be considered when the first f
111 Post contains links Lambert747 : Why is Delta Air Lines asking for a reduction in frequency when AA, CO, NW, and UA are keeping all of their flights in tact to either Shanghai or Peki
112 FFlyerWorld : Well if Delta's website and seat map are any indication - the loads look darn good ATL - PVG. I have checked this flight since its inception end of M
113 MCOAviationFan : AA, CO, NW, and UA have not yet begun their China routes from the last DOT awards. UA was awarded SFO - CAN beginning March 2008 and has deferred the
114 Lambert747 : Delta Air Lines can pull many miracles off from Atlanta; however I don't see Canton being one of them. It would be interesting to know the O/D number
115 777STL : You're missing the point, there were China routes that existed before the last round of awards, more specifically to PVG. Neither AA nor UA have redu
116 B752OS : I agree that ATL-CAN would be a very large stretch. People need to remember that USA-CAN is not that large of a market, especially when you compare i
117 MCOAviationFan : I understand what you are saying. My point is that the previous China routes have had a few years to develop and are further along than DL's. The awa
118 B752OS : Well said. This begs the question, DL built their campaign on being great for the Southeast of the U.S. I have to ask, is the southeast not respondin
119 Lambert747 : True it is the newest. However, Delta Air Lines was awarded the route while other airlines applied for the China frequencies. If Delta Air Lines cann
120 Ocracoke : DL knows that it is bound to the 7 frequencies. That is not even part of the discussion. DL simply is asking the DOT if it may fly only 5 times a wee
121 Mayor : Read it more carefully. The glance was at Delta.com and the seat chart on there gives no indication of non-revs or FF upgrades.....Just seats sold.
122 MaverickM11 : I have no problem with the deferral. I'm just pointing out that ATL is a great hub, but all hubs have limits, and ATL-China will struggle until the l
123 MCOAviationFan : All the airlines applying for China service made a huge public display, though I am not aware if anyone else had a website selling the route. And tha
124 Lambert747 : I think the people up at JFK would have a hard time understanding the above statement.. When did Delta Air Lines start nonstop service from Atlanta t
125 MaverickM11 : They tried ATLNCE MAY-SEP06 but it didn't work out; it wasn't very full either.
126 FFlyerWorld : Thank you Mayor! Furthermore for clarificatiion purposes, Delta does not upgrade their FFlyers on International segments (unfortunately) like they do
127 MCOAviationFan : It seemed to me that you were taking DL to task for reducing frequency on ATL - PVG, but not concerned with US deferring PHL - PEK even though both r
128 FFlyerWorld : Delta's problems are not nearly what UAL faces today and even with their huge reduction in flying, plane grounding, and employee furloughs and the li
129 MCOAviationFan : Perhaps the Olympics coming to PEK this summer has had a positive effect on this and other routes to PEK. Also, I do not believe that UA has announce
130 Planefxr : DL just started flying this route the end of March it still is in its infancy and has not had time to mature, but it will. The other carriers have be
131 Lambert747 : Shanghai is not a seasonal market As I have mentioned earlier seats filled does not equate to a profit margin, in turn every seat can go out filled f
132 Lambert747 : Sorry, I may be incorrect, but aren’t the applications based on domestic connections and not connections to foreign destinations? There is no doubt
133 MCOAviationFan : I didn't say Peking had anything to do with Shanghai. I simply said that the Olympics may be having a positive effect on routes to PEK.
134 FFlyerWorld : All this fuss about Delta requesting 5x weekly ATL-PVG from 7x weekly and we have yet to begin to discuss what lies ahead for AA,UA,NW, and others. Le
135 Lambert747 : You are correct and it is a given that the demand for Peking would peak due to the Olympics. However that only has to do for the most part with late
136 DeltaL1011man : Isn't KE daily 744? No its not doing great but it is doing good. It has good loads and is a cargo gold mine. Yea thats why DL hasn't asked for UA's C
137 Lambert747 : The timing is interesting as many on here have said. It make me wonder and I am sure others wonder if this request for drop in frequency had been plan
138 MaverickM11 : They don't have a hub that would make those flights work either
139 DeltaL1011man : Nothing will get cut. Right now DL has it planed to fly (with 10 777s) JFK-BOM daily ATL-DXB daily ATL-NRT daily ATL-TLV daily ATL-PVG daily ATL-GRU
140 777STL : Yes, but that's irrelevant. Creating slack in the fleet utilization isn't DL's motivation for reducing to 5x weekly, they stated themselves that 7x w
141 MaverickM11 : They still cut the most difficult route to cut, which means it's not doing well.
142 Jetlanta : No. Again, the route will be FINE. They are asking for a temporary reduction in frequency at a time when oil prices have reached yet another record.
143 DeltaL1011man : There is this city, has the highest number of daily seats in the US, called Atlanta that would make it work just like PVG will work.......it just tak
144 Bobnwa : I will bet you have no knowledge of how much cargo DL is carrying West bound to China to be able to make the statement "it is a cargo gold mine". I m
145 MaverickM11 : It also takes a lucrative local market, which ATL does not have to China. They're going to wait until fuel prices are lower to add those flights back
146 Jacobin777 : Simple, I hear/read "double talk" of people trying to explain why its "no big deal" as to DL not being the biggest..now it is a "big deal" that they
147 Lambert747 : We are all looking forward to the new BizE system wide on the T7's Time will tell.. I have researched a number of threads. I am new to all of this an
148 777STL : Or he will criticize another airline for something and in the same breath make excuses when that same something applies to DL. For instance, a certai
149 Lambert747 : We are of course talking about connecting traffic, not O/D traffic. Yes, it does take time. Delta Air Lines does not see fit to ride the storm and ra
150 Jacobin777 : If the route is doing so well why ask? None of the other carriers have asked for a reduction in frequency. Again, if DL is doing so well on the route
151 Mayor : I've been promoted.
152 Mayor : No, but they have asked for a dormancy waiver, which could lay the ground work for the same thing.
153 Cubsrule : Truth be told, I'm not sure it matters what the DoT does. NW might be able to do something with a couple of China frequencies, but that's not really
154 Jacobin777 : Until a carrier such as UA asks for IAD-PEK or AA asks for ORD-PVG frequencies to be cut, its all speculation.
155 Mayor : As is this entire thread.
156 Cubsrule : It gets significantly more interesting then... 4 or 5 frequencies (cobbled together from a couple of different reductions) might be enough to interes
157 Mayor : I think if DOT rejects it, DL will just keep operating the daily service.
158 Jetlanta : Because the opportunities to get China rights are very rare. If you are looking to expand into the market, you take the opportunities you are given.
159 Lambert747 : Southwest Airlines bought all of their fuel in advance
160 Planefxr : That is true it is DL's doing. When you say It is their fault as you so put it, you make it sound like DL has done something terribly bad. Quite the
161 Lambert747 : Sorry, call it first day... excitement! I understand what you are getting at and I agree with you. I could go into detail about the whole issue of un
162 DeltaL1011man : My bad Bob but yes it is mostly PVG to ATL that is the cargo gold mine. ATL-PVG not as great (still ok though) but the loads on ATL-PVG are better th
163 Aither : Even though China is a booming market the traffic numbers are not yet that impressive, especially from US east coast and outside "natural" hubs such a
164 Planefxr : L1011 you are correct on this. 1 million in revenue the first two weeks alone. One week after the inaugral flight on April 5th DL set a cargo revenue
165 Evan767 : It seems as though every route that is opened up nowadays, no matter what airlines, is a "cargo gold mine". Maybe it's just those defending an airlin
166 777STL : DL themselves said they couldn't profitably operate the route at current fuel prices, it's right there in the press release. Think what you want, I d
167 Jacobin777 : No it isn't..as the thread is about DL itself asking. If the DOT approves it, DL just might do it, so how does it make it "speculative'? Of course, t
168 WorldTraveler : no they didn't. They are substantially hedged but nowhere near 100%. And a point that is being missed in all of this is that DL's merger with NW will
169 DeltaL1011man : Ok I read the DOT docket and I DID NOT anywhere see this. DL wants to SEASONALLY reduce the route. The lack of demand from Nov. to May makes them red
170 DeltaL1011man : Dont forget DTW-PVG starting early 09.
171 WorldTraveler : agreed but that is most of the way through the reduction period. but the point is the same... DL will have its code on 2 flights to/from PVG after th
172 Planefxr : I will think what I want. If you want to believe the cargo revenue DL is carrying is simply an A.net rumor then you are welcome to think what you wan
173 Planefxr : found on page 4 Docket OST-2007-28567 In contrast to these requests by other carriers for lengthy extensions of the start-up conditions applicable to
174 Planefxr : 777STL or anyone for that matter could you please post link of press release where Delta said that it could not profitably operate ATL-PVG at current
175 Planefxr : Anyone? Beuller? Man I feel like a Topic Crasher.
176 Jacobin777 : I never stated it was doing "so poorly", I'm curious however as to why they want to possibly reduce frequency if the flight is a success..
177 DeltaL1011man : They think the demand is going to drop
178 Planefxr : Yeah, I am just as curious. I am not an equipment scheduler, but I just can't see how they can do all of the scheduled 777 flying starting in Nov. wi
179 Jacobin777 : That's not any of the reasons which they cited. Plus, DL should be getting some new birds coming in soon. Neither UA nor AA have stated this problem.
180 DeltaL1011man : Neither AA or UA has just started new flights to PVG with oil 125$ ether
181 Planefxr : 7103 will not be delivered until mid December IIRC. Five more LR's Jan-Mar 09. Like I mentioned in previous post US Airways cited the high cost of fu
182 Flynavy : Little old ATL isn't so little anymore. She's truly global city thanks in part to Delta, Coca Cola, the 1996 Olympics... You've asked this question M
183 Planefxr : Having lived in little old ATL for a quite number of years, I realize that. If you read the post closely you just might be able to see a little facet
184 Flynavy : Ah yes, I see it now. The internet can be so dry at times (especially in threads like this one) 77Ws is almost a given, I agree. It is my personal be
185 Planefxr : Seasonal or just temporary? I say temporary, unless DL is going to request this every year. The current request specifically gives reduction and resu
186 DeltaL1011man : Don't forget Home Depot and UPS I hoping for the 764s atleast but m a few more 763s wouldn't be bad. No we most likely wont see anymore 777-232ERs tr
187 LAXdude1023 : I will say this, I dont for a second consider DL reducing ATL-PVG to mean the flight is a failure. I dont think its the stellar money maker that some
188 Evan767 : Weather Channel CNN
189 Planefxr : Anderson, eluded to the fact that 747-200's being retired in the future will not be replaced. He also eluded to the fact that the slots that the carg
190 777STL : Think about what you're saying. If DL were making money hand over fist with this route right now, would they be reducing it? Heck no they wouldn't be
191 Planefxr : Actions do speak louder than words, but I did not reference a so called PRESS RELEASE, that apparently does not exist. What I referenced was DL's fir
192 DeltaL1011man : Shouldn't that say "But ATL isn't the market ORD-PCG is"? if thats the case i agree. is based in Atlanta? I didn't know that one.
193 Bobnwa : I didn't know they were in ATL, but I would guess their contribution to the aviation world in travel expenditures would rival Guido's Pizza in ATL.
194 United1 : I don't see what the big ruckus is on here over 2 weekly frequencies, if DL needs to cut them then they should cut them I don't think anyone really ex
195 Planefxr : Well said.
196 Jacobin777 : That's what I've been bloody been saying as well...
197 Lono : I think this reduction may be part of a realignment of metal once the merger goes down... it would be interesting to see the "outstanding order sched
198 FlyDeltaJets87 : Well, if you want to know why I got defensive on your post and what I was refercing here is a perfect example from the Delta Starts ATL-ARN thread: M
199 Planefxr : NW has firm orders on five more 319's and two more 320's. They also have eighteen firm 788's with fifty more options.
200 LAXdude1023 : Oh, so you saying all Californians are stupid and that California sucks? Hey, youre not the only one who can jump to conclusions. Yes, indeed. Thanks
201 Lono : delivery dates on these anyone know???
202 Panamair : It's not that big a deal for DL's primary traffic from Brazil/Peru to Japan simply because all 'overseas' Japanese (i.e., Brazilians or Peruvians of
203 Evan767 : Yes, the Weather Channel is based in ATL.
204 Cubsrule : You're definitely right, but there are 2 things to keep in mind: 1) Even Visa Waiver doesn't negate the fact that the transfer at ATL (or elsewhere i
205 PVG : I wouldn't assume that to be true. Getting a US visa for any reason is just not that easy (unnecessarily in my opinion). You are essentially at the m
206 Jetlanta : Exactly what other countries, except perhaps Canada, are people traveling from Brazil to Japan likely to transit?
207 Corinthians : Actually, it's not that easy to get a Japanese passport, even for Japanese-Brazilians. To get a Japanese passport, you have to have at least one of y
208 MAH4546 : Europe and Dubai. A significant amount of South America-Asia traffic goes via Europe. Air China's Sao Paulo flights are via Madrid; Emirates flies no
209 MaverickM11 : DL will not take anymore 767s.
210 MaverickM11 : Right now the majority of the number of routes operated by any network carrier is losing money, so even if ATLPVG (or any route) was breaking even, i
211 Lambert747 : How did we go from talking about frequencies to China, to insulting the intelligence of people and industries in Georgia and California? As per Expedi
212 Jetlanta : OK, good points. My comment was a VERY late night post and I clearly wasn't thinking of a via Europe routing.
213 Lambert747 : Lol.. We all have those.. The timings are near similar.. Such as GRU-DFW-NRT & GRU-FCO-NRT
214 Cubsrule : Frequent business travelers are undoubtedly more likely to have US visas... I'm just not sure how much more likely.
215 Lambert747 : There are as many Brazilian business ties to the US as there are to Europe. It makes no difference. I would however think that with the ever growing
216 Cubsrule : I don't think we're on the same page... What I was saying is that those Brazilians who need to go to Asia for business are, as a group, more likely t
217 Lambert747 : I have to agree and disagree. While those holding Visas might travel often to the USA, that does not mean that they dont travel to Europe as often. I
218 Cubsrule : I'm talking about holding visas only, not transiting.
219 Post contains links ChicagoFlyer : Permission was granted to scale down from 7 to 5 weekly flights in winter until May. http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlan.../2008/06/16/daily95.html?a
220 Lambert747 : " target=_blank>http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlan...yfcpc Good for Delta. Perhaps they will be able to force a higher premium not that they will h
221 MaverickM11 : Yep.[Edited 2008-06-20 12:03:39]
222 Jacobin777 : If the route is doing "so well" then why cut down? Simple, the route isn't doing as well as planned..at least not as good enough to keep it at a daily
223 MastaHanky : Delta was making so much money with this route that they felt guilty about it, and decided to reduce frequency in order to share the wealth with othe
224 Jetlanta : Of course not. Because no one planned for oil prices to double. Keep in mind also that carriers bid the full 7 frequencies in order to maintain daily
225 Jacobin777 : They can shove some of that money over my way, I'll switch my loyalties... Oil has been the "great" equalizer for many carriers/routes, yet we don't
226 Jetlanta : But they are cutting lots of other stuff. It doesn't matter where. I wasn't.
227 Jacobin777 : Sure, but we are talking specifically about China. During the waiting period by the DOT, there were countless threads about the merits of DL getting
228 WorldTraveler : there are multiple articles out showing the slowdown in the Chinese economy and the reduction in Chinese travel. The only difference between DL on PVG
229 LAXdude1023 : Get over youself. The people who "love to trash DL" simply for the sake of trashing DL are few and far between. Dont think because someone presents a
230 DeltaL1011man : GIVE IT A REST. Like I have said to ANYONE who says this route is doing bad get me numbers or stop bringing it up. This is becoming the next "When wi
231 Jacobin777 : -What does that have to do with the topic at hand? -Maybe removing an entire "fleet or two" is the best thing for AA to do. Had DL done it, you would
232 Jacobin777 : You fail to mention its a route no one wanted in the first place... Facts speak for themselves. Show the route is doing well... Why?
233 DeltaL1011man : Ha. No its a route that no one a.net wanted. I wanted it are you calling me a no one Jacobin? 90-95% loads and 1M in cargo in 2 weeks. It couldn't be
234 MasseyBrown : One reason to pause this particular discussion is to see how DOT responds to the blanket request for international dormancy waivers. There is also a
235 Jacobin777 : ...you really don't want me to answer that one now do you? ..first two weeks was great...how about since? Apropos, speaking of cargo, while ATL is to
236 Lambert747 : LAXdude1023, MAH4546, Jacobin777 Welcome to my RM List
237 DeltaL1011man : Thats just mean. Why would things change? Never said it was. And yet you keep this one going.
238 United1 : Sometimes routes have strong initial bookings due to the initial buzz and high levels of advertising as time go by the loads on those routes can drop
239 RwSEA : I think the folks in DFW would disagree. And what about PDX? Also, I think it's safe to say that DL's LAX "hub" to Latin America has effectively been
240 DeltaL1011man : Was talking about cargo not PAX. Like every PR has said they expect the demand to drop a little. If they demand stays the same or rises then they can
241 WorldTraveler : neither of which DL called a hub. DFW yes. The reality is that DL has built itself even before the NW merger into THE airline in the world that has t
242 Lambert747 : You may want to check the Delta Air Lines/Western Airlines merger and see what Delta Air Lines referred to LAX as when the two were combined in the l
243 OA412 : What part of NO OTHER CARRIER applied for a US-CAN frequency is so difficult for some people to understand? That's the thing that people seem to be u
244 SESGDL : DL has not called LAX a hub since the late 1980s. DL has closed one hub in the last twenty years, two if you include the merger with WA, who consider
245 LAXdude1023 : Thats not true. They did a video about a year and a half to two years ago about a series of expansion they were doing where they called LAX a hub. It
246 777STL : Alright, to all the DL fanboys who don't understand what brings out those critical of DL....HERE IT IS quoted. WT, why is that you can't say somethin
247 Srbmod : Since this thread has gotten off-track, it is now locked.
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