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Delta "Continuing" Flights  
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8265 times:

I flew DL IAH-ATL-CLT a few weeks back, and was somewhat surprised when my IAH-ATL flight was listed as a flight to LOS on the departure board and at the gate. I figured that due to the big oil demand between Houston and Nigeria that DL had decided to start the 763 in IAH and then stop in ATL en route to LOS. However, the plane I boarded was a regular MD-80.

For the in cabin announcements prior to takeoff, they announced that the flight number would be continuing to Lagos, but on a different plane and out of a different terminal. I have to wonder, is this just some marketing gimmick advertising "direct" service to Lagos? Everyone on the plane seem surprised when they announced Lagos, and I doubt there were more than 2 or 3 passengers connecting. Why not just offer connecting service through ATL, rather than "direct" service that still requires a change of planes (and terminals)? Marketing gimmick?

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

because

1. there is a genuine link between many domestic and int'l cities and the advantage that US carriers have is the ability to offer a single flight number from a domestic point through a gateway to an international point. direct flights generally show up on or near the first screen of computer reservations systems and generally before connecting flights.

and
2. because DL will be challenged to accommodate all DL and NW flight numbers along with all codeshare partners in the 9999 flight numbers that systems can use for one airline code.

Incidentally, DL does carry alot of passengers from Houston to its global points including to LOS and DXB, cities that are both connected with a single flight number to IAH via ATL.


User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2039 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8211 times:
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Quoting Cba (Thread starter):
Marketing gimmick?

I don't know if I would call it a marketing gimmick, there are plenty of airlines that practice this. A few years ago I was on a UA flight from SEA to ORD, aboard a 752, it continued on with a 772 to FRA.

Happens every day.

-Charlie


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2413 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

This is done frequently by all airlines. The theory is why fly a big widebody half empty to Houston? the flight number continues on., but the guage of the plane changes to reflect the traffic on the specific route.

User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8205 times:

Its a marketing gimmick. The ATL-DXB route also "originates" at IAH. Those flights come up first on the res systems for those searching for IAH-LOS/DXB. If I am not mistaken those are the only two mainline flights from IAH this summer as well. I wish they would originate the 763 at IAH or at least put a 757 on a IAH-ATL turn, but thats a pipedream.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8205 times:

Typically when polling schedules or itineraries they are displayed a nonstops first, then direct then connecting, so its sort of a sly way of getting your flights noticed.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineBinMonster From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8199 times:

Welcome to the 1980's

Schedule change of equipment for marketing purposes is an OLD Trick.
Many carriers use this to gain better placement in different bookings displays.
The service will show at the top or towards the top of the first screen.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8167 times:



Quoting BinMonster (Reply 6):

Direct flights always show up on the computer before connections. That's why it's done.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8168 times:

MSY-PHL-ATH on US is flight 758...return is 759. 737 connecting to 767.

MSY-IAH-LHR on CO is flight 4...return is flight 5. 737 connecting to 777.

There are many, many examples like this all over the U.S on several carriers.

[Edited 2008-06-06 15:59:06]

User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8167 times:



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
This is done frequently by all airlines.

Only in the U.S. It's very rare in other countries. For example I can't recall AC ever doing it in Canada, and I've never seen it done in Europe except possibly on a very limited basis quite a few years ago.


User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 3004 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8111 times:

I'd say it is some kind of a gimmick, there are better ways to connect. For example Aer Lingus flies between Shannon (SNN) - Dublin (DUB) - Chicago (ORD) each day. The SNN-DUB leg is operated by the same aircraft (A330) as on the DUB-ORD leg under the same flight number. While on the ground in DUB, the passengers who just arrived from SNN have to remain onboard (assuming they are travelling to ORD, the pax getting off in DUB get off obviously) and the DUB passengers board. The aircraft is on the ground in DUB for just 1 hour. I don't know what's the point of slapping on the same flight number for two flights just for the hell of it. I know United is a terror for it in the US but I think they should operate similar to the example I gave above if they're marketing it as a "direct" flight with a stopover. End of speech.


Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8110 times:

We had a flight in SLC that went on to JFK-AMS. Domestic 767-300 from SLC and then a/c change to an ER.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8026 times:

Also, ATL is a big city and has many international businesses. Houston's not the only place where energy folks reside. Also, the countries in the middle east have more products to offer than just oil.

As far as flight numbers, they are interchanged between equipment and routes quite frequently. But I just thought of something. While I worked ATOC duty in the AF I used to have to make up flight numbers to originate MAC flights on non-MAC aircraft and without a regular channel mission. Say, in the civilan world we'll see a UA express flight 8006 with a Trans States aircraft from ORD to RIC. Those digits are used for that specific airline flying for that specific carrier. In the Air Force the flight number you would see maybe 11E1, but the full flight number would be say ABB 11E1 XX. If I remember right the ABB would be the designation for type of aircraft and regularity, the middle 4 alpha numeric code is the channel flight and I think the last two digits the last two digits of julian calander date. It's been quite a while, I'm probably wrong on half of it. There is a rhime to reason for flight numbers believe it or not.



EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8002 times:

I can't remember the exact formula, but way back when, DL's flight numbers were in a certain pattern for north and south and in another pattern for east and west. With so many more flights now than then, that went out the window, quite a while ago.

Can you believe it, when I hired on in '71, we had 173 a/c in the fleet, including the L-100.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7911 times:

DL is on the verge of scheduling over 800 mainline a/c and another 500 regional jets - plus codeshare partners. They have no choice but to maximize flight number usage which means using flight numbers for as many segments as possible. As alliances grow, other carriers will do the same thing or run out of flight numbers.

User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7875 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Only in the U.S. It's very rare in other countries. For example I can't recall AC ever doing it in Canada, and I've never seen it done in Europe except possibly on a very limited basis quite a few years ago

AC doesn't offer Change-of-Guage direct flights becuase of limitations in its reservations and operations competer systems.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently onlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2603 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7846 times:
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Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
This is done frequently by all airlines.

Only by US airlines in the last 15 years AFIK... And yes, it is a complete con.
Passengers who book these services as a "direct" service have to change plane (and often terminals as in this case) so gain absolutely nothing in terms of time or convenience over a connecting flight with a different number. Furthermore as has been said previously, if the first leg of the "direct" flight runs late, there is no more guarantee the next leg will be held back for connecting passengers over those arriving on any other service.

There is no real connection between flight A and flight B, I'd fully support a ban on using same-flight number/different-equipment scheduling to bump flights to the top of CRS screens. The only people it fools are inexperienced passengers and ill-informed travel-agents.

In the days of internet bookings, most passengers have far more powerful methods of determining their preferred option, be that in terms of price, schedule, number of connections or overall travel time.

US carriers appear reluctant to credit their customers with any intelligence...
Does keeping the same flight number on an MD-88 from IAH to ATL as the 767 on ATL-LOS make;
(a) someone more likely to book this flight,
(b) someone less likely to book this flight, or,
(c) absoultely no difference given the price/schedule/journey-time information available to anyone

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7815 times:



Quoting Cba (Thread starter):
For the in cabin announcements prior to takeoff, they announced that the flight number would be continuing to Lagos, but on a different plane and out of a different terminal. I have to wonder, is this just some marketing gimmick advertising "direct" service to Lagos?



Quoting Mayor (Reply 7):
Direct flights always show up on the computer before connections. That's why it's done.

Like what Mayor is saying it is A) because of better visibility in reservation mechanisms. An extra connection is less appealing and most reservations systems apply a 'logical routing' to ticketing fares, and a connection would be a negative.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 14):
They have no choice but to maximize flight number usage which means using flight numbers for as many segments as possible.

Not the case, they can put numbers in, reuse or duplicate, have a flight # follow plane, they are not running out.




DL is among the worst about a flight number that has a change in equipment, they will generally not hold the flight. For example, if IAH-ATL is late the ATL-LOS may not necessarily be held. And for a while, there will be two of the same flight #'s in action.

Same for the CLE-PVG (or some other destination in China) that CO was launching. The CLE-EWR would not be on a 777, but if that segment was late or cancelled - damn straight EWR-PVG would continue.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7752 times:



Quoting B4REAL (Reply 17):
Not the case, they can put numbers in, reuse or duplicate, have a flight # follow plane, they are not running out.

you clearly don't know what you are talking about. If you do, then you would know that no US airline has any significant number of unused flight numbers because of codesharing. DL, NW, and CO are in the worst shape because they have such large domestic codesharing. And BTW, the CO agreement and codesharing will not go away for at least 9 months after the DL/NW merger because CO is contractually required to maintain its Skyteam relationship for that length of time. DL will have to put its code on EVERY NW flight and affiliate flight number - way more than what is currently codeshared right now.

and despite all the opposition to change of aircraft single flight numbers, the whole debate is because DL is making the announcements that they are required to make to show that there IS a change of aircraft on this flight in ATL. The OP would have never known and this post wouldn't have even been started if DL didn't make the announcement. Carriers also have to provide advisors when a flight is sold if there are changes in aircraft enroute and if part of the itinerary is operated by a codeshare partner. US carriers follow these rules and the DOT fines them if they don't comply. There are rules for handling these types of situations and the airlines follow them.


User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7752 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Only in the U.S. It's very rare in other countries.

That's why we say "Spain is different"

Arrivals at MAD
IBE6845 10:35 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to BUENOS AIRES/MINISTRO PISTARINI)
IBE6275 10:35 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to CHICAGO-OHARE INTL.)
IBE6741 10:35 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to BOGOTA /EL DORADO)
IBE6313 10:35 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to SAN JOSEC.RICA)

IBE6463 10:50 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to GUAYAQUIL/SIMON BOLIVAR via QUITO)
IBE6347 10:50 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to PANAMA /TOCUMEN)
IBE6025 10:50 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to RIO DE JANEIRO)
IBE6701 10:50 BARCELONA IBERIA - (continues to CARACAS)

These 8 flights are in fact operated by only two planes. That's because all IB longhaul planes are based in MAD while the flight "originates" in BCN.

People have said above it's a mere trick to be displayed on top after a GDS search... that's true, but these direct flights also allow airlines a much more simple pricing structure as BCN-MAD-EZE has the very same price than MAD-EZE. Also, all the baggage with a IB6xxx tag will be delivered at MAD or transferring onto the same IB6xxx flight. The plane is different, yes, but there are only 4 possible destinations for these bags.

Direct flights are kind of mandatory regarding 5th freedom flights. A flight from country A can land in country B and continue on to country C. If the air treaty is not too restrictive there's free choice of equipment and thus, the carrier can freely choose the aircraft operating both segments. Examples: IB former A319 hub in MIA to Central America, AR former M80 hub in MAD to Europe and I believe some NW flights at NRT en-route to mainland Asia.

If direct flights with change of aircraft can happen overseas, why not domestic?


User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7723 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 13):
Can you believe it, when I hired on in '71, we had 173 a/c in the fleet, including the L-100.

Wow, I was born in '71, joined the USAF in '90 and was MAC. DL had L-100's? Let's see, our L-100's I'm thinking of were stretch 130's used by Southern Air. We used them to take up a lot of slack on out regular 130 runs from MHZ to ADA during Operations Desert Sheild and Storm. I think I gave them a designation of SAM then regular channel mission. Not to be confused with a SAAM mission. I wish I still had the cheat sheet I kept under my desk back then. I could at least give you the reasoning of MAC flights from back in the day.



EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7633 times:

pure marketing gimmick... quite close to the border of fraud, IMHO....

they sell a flight as a "one-stop", when it is actually a connection... the difference being, that with a one-stop one expects not to have change the plane at the stop - one expects to be able to stay in the plane, or at least at the gate of arrival at the stop. Instead you may have to change gate or even terminals, worry about making (or not making) connections, etc.

Some people may choose a one-stop flight specifically over a connection, only to realize when they board that they are in fact on just a bog standard connecting flight... the fact, that DL put "EQV" (equipment varies) instead of "EQC" (equipment change) in the "equipment" field of the booking systems just adds to it....



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7625 times:

Here's a bunch of many that Delta uses for international flights:

DL9 CAI-JFK-LAX
DL17 BOM-JFK-ATL
DL18 PVG-ATL-LGA
DL23 AMM-JFK-TPA
DL25 DUS-ATL-PIT
DL33 FCO-CVG-SFO
DL37 LGW-CVG-LAS
DL45 AMS-CVG-DEN
DL47 SVO-ATL-SFO
DL56 NRT-ATL-CVG
DL65 MAN-ATL-LAS
DL69 CPH-ATL-SFO
DL73 IST-JFK-SFO
DL87 TLV-JFK-FLL
DL92 ICN-ATL-MCO
DL110 EZE-ATL-LAX
DL117 STR-ATL-LAX
DL120 GRU-JFK-BOS
DL131 MUC-ATL-SLC
DL135 OTP-JFK-ATL
DL137 PSA-JFK-LAX
DL139 ATH-ATL-TPA
DL151 VCE-JFK-SFO
DL163 AGP-JFK-SEA
DL165 DUB-JFK-LAX
DL167 ACC-JFK-DEN
DL173 ARN-ATL-SEA

There are also a great deal of domestic continuing flights.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7586 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
and despite all the opposition to change of aircraft single flight numbers, the whole debate is because DL is making the announcements that they are required to make to show that there IS a change of aircraft on this flight in ATL. The OP would have never known and this post wouldn't have even been started if DL didn't make the announcement.

well, if they made that announcement at the time of booking instead of at the time of boarding, it would be a hell of more helpful...

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
If you do, then you would know that no US airline has any significant number of unused flight numbers because of codesharing.

Is that so? are there really 10 000 flights a day with a DL code in the world? And if so, they could still re-use the flight numbers in a way that it stays connected to the plane - maybe for a ATL-SLC-JFK 757 run or something like that (I'm making plane rotations up now)...



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7571 times:



Quoting Cba (Thread starter):



Quoting Cba (Thread starter):
I have to wonder, is this just some marketing gimmick advertising "direct" service to Lagos?

It's called "change of gauge" and it is very common in the industry. Has been for decades.

And yes, generally, it is a marketing tool.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
25 NorthwestEWR : Nice try. They've been doing this for years just as other carriers have, NW does it too. It's a marketing gimmick, if they started doing it just afte
26 WorldTraveler : good list... and note how many are in markets where a.netters seem to think there should be nonstop service such as GRU-BOS or AMS-DEN to compete aga
27 Xtoler : Just pay attention to what's printed on your itinerary, and as much as we guys don't like to ask for direction, especially when we were with a chick,
28 N702ML : Yes, as others have pointed out, this is an age-old practice used by US airlines for a long time. In fact, one of the major tragedies in American avia
29 Post contains links Goldorak : There is also another thread on the same question (but UA instead of DL) http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4016582/ Thi
30 JGPH1A : Will ITA be building this capability into Polaris ? (*snigger*) Yes it is. That's why the EU rules for GDS's require that change of guage flights be
31 COSPN : Yes same with CO1 IAH-HNL-GUM same If part one is late part 2 will go on schedule unless its not too long a delay
32 Flymad : Please correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC Pam Am 103 was a B727 from FRA to LHR continuing with B747.
33 N702ML : See reply 28
34 HAMAD : UA 902 has the same criterea, however, a lot of us are over looking a flight switching from Domestic to International. for example, again with UA 902,
35 Kalvado : Then why not to operate all the flight as DL:001? makes it very easy and saves a shitload of flight numbers..
36 MasseyBrown : This is not an inescapable or even serious problem unless the airline's programming is a couple of generations old.
37 JGPH1A : Unfortunately, it mostly is old, and more than a couple of generations. Think "machine code". 5-digit flight numbers will be a HEEEUUUGGEEE deal and
38 Zone1 : We all know the real reason they do this. It's to cheap people out of frequent flier miles.
39 MasseyBrown : I was thinking of an initial alpha character in a four-character flight "number". That would increase available numbers by at least 200% depending on
40 Mayor : This was being done LONG before any FF programs were started.
41 JGPH1A : An alpha-suffix is already supported by the industry for flight numbers - it can only be A, B or C I think. e.g. DL1234A However not many systems sup
42 Mayor : In some cases, with "round robin" flights, e.g. SLC-BOI-SLC, you have to differentiate between legs of the flight in the computer.....SLC-BOI DL1500A.
43 Unmlobo : Yes it is largely a marketing gimmick. However, it has not lost its usefulness in the internet age. The flights show up as lower-priced than connectio
44 MasseyBrown : "Better is the enemy of good enough" strikes again.
45 Usair320 : What about US? US 755 MCO-PHL-CDG 73X/A333 US 716 LAX-PHL-MXP A321/762 US 719 CLT-PHL-FCO 734/A333 plus every other transatlantic flight number.
46 Kiwiandrew : that is because it is illegal to do this in the European Union , unless it really is the same aircraft operating both sectors
47 JGPH1A : No it's not. Complexing is illegal. Change of guage is not. You just have to show it in the GDS as change of guage.
48 QB737 : Not always. Apollo will show the options with the shortest journey time at the top. Ben
49 FlyDeltaJets87 : DL's flight from JFK to IST at one point originiated in Orlando (with a change of planes from a 757 to a 767) and looking now, the flight originates
50 JGPH1A : Yersss, well - Apollo. Say no more
51 Viscount724 : Airlines originally intended to switch to 3-letter carrier codes for schedules/reservations/ticketing at least 20 years ago when they began to run sh
52 QB737 : Yeah I know, didn't have much of a say when the decision was taken It wal all about cost, not performance.
53 Flymad : Sorry folks, that's what happens when you don't read the entire thread before posting!
54 JGPH1A : 3-character carrier codes have been partially incorporated into industry standards for reservations processing, but not completely. For example, it i
55 AlexEU : That would add another problem. You would either run a virtually empty int'l flight IAH-ATL, or have to go out of the aircraft and clear customs/immi
56 MasseyBrown : What about one of the newer airlines? JetBlue, say. Wouldn't their systems be written in a more flexible, easily modified language? Or did they just
57 JGPH1A : JetBlue currently use Navitaire's OpenSkies product, which is a specific product for low-cost carriers. It is much newer than many legacy platforms,
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