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Who Flew SFO-DTW In 1971?  
User currently offlineCmk10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

I'm reading an Arthur Hailey book (believe it or not he wrote books other than Airport and he mentions someone flying SFO-DTW, who was doing that back in 1971? He gave a lot of detail to a different character flying DTW-LAX on a UA B-720 but not enough detail on this other flight haha. Thanks for any help.


"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6896 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

If you mean nonstop-- offhand I'll guess UA had one a day; possibly AA had one but I'll guess not. No other possibilities.

User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2596 times:

Delta and American were the big two, UA didn't start until the early 90's in an effort to feed the Pacific routes.

[Edited 2008-06-09 18:44:51]

User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
UA didn't start until the early 90's in an effort to feed the Pacific routes.

Not quite correct. I flew UA non-stop DTW-SFO on a DC-10 twice in the early '70's (sometime around '74 or '75)

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
Delta and American were the big two,

AA yes to LAX, but DL no.

I know that TW also had a daily R/T DTW-SFO

[Edited 2008-06-09 19:28:42]

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2512 times:

Back in the day both TW and UA used to have a flight or so a day with 707 and DC-8/B-720 equip. respectively, but AA had the most flights---three a day each way or so with 707's.


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2499 times:

1969
AA095 DTW 0940 SFO 1113
AA603 DTW 1200 SFO 1335
AA091 DTW 1914 SFO 2041

1971
TW 457 DTW 1025 SFO 1137
TW185 DTW 1420 SFO 1552
TW481 DTW1745 SFO 1867

1971
UA393 DTW 0740 SFO 0953
UA629 DTW 1439 SFO 1649


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2480 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
Not quite correct. I flew UA non-stop DTW-SFO on a DC-10 twice in the early '70's (sometime around '74 or '75)

My mistake, somehow I got confused with DTW and DFW..


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2255 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2336 times:



Quoting Cmk10 (Thread starter):
I'm reading an Arthur Hailey book (believe it or not he wrote books other than Airport

Ah yes, you're reading Wheels!

The TWA DTW-SFO nonstop flights were gone by the first energy crisis in 1974, but UA and AA stayed in the market, with each airline operating 2-3 roundtrips / day with 707/DC-8 and DC-10 equipment, until the 1980 recession.

These flights were sustained in part by belly cargo headed for Ford's Milpitas, CA Pinto / F 150 and GM's Fremont, CA Pontiac Grand Prix assembly plants, but AA dropped DTW-SFO around the time both assembly plants closed in the early 1980s, and UA cut back to just 1 or 2 727-200s a day.

I grew up in the neighborhood where Adam and Erica Trenton, the main characters in Wheels, lived, and I've found myself rereading the book often - as much as anything because it is a portrait of the Detroit area in much happier days. It's been a long time since anyone said Japanese cars were "held together with bailing wire", as one of the characters in Wheels does....



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineCMK10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2261 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I grew up in the neighborhood where Adam and Erica Trenton, the main characters in Wheels, lived, and I've found myself rereading the book often - as much as anything because it is a portrait of the Detroit area in much happier days. It's been a long time since anyone said Japanese cars were "held together with bailing wire", as one of the characters in Wheels does....

Yep you're right I sure am! It's an enjoyable book alright, thank you for your knowledge in answering my question. Were you able to ever pin down what company Adam works for? I couldn't figure it out. Shame they never mention Ann Arbor, my brother lives there and it's the only part of Michigan I know well.



"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2255 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2208 times:



Quoting CMK10 (Reply 8):
Were you able to ever pin down what company Adam works for? I couldn't figure it out.

My guess is that Adam worked for Ford, for the following reasons:

1. Race car driver Pierre Flodenhale (sp?)'s funeral is in Dearborn, where Ford is headquartered.
2. In the book, the staff services building, where designer Brett DeLosanto works, is about a mile from the headquarters, where Adam Trenton works. This roughly corresponds to the distance between Ford's headquarters and design studio in Dearborn. GM's headquarters was (and is) in inner city Detroit, but their design studio was / is in Warren, about 20 miles away. Chrysler's headquarters and design studio in the late 1960s were in the same complex in Highland Park; today, they are in the same complex in Auburn Hills.
3. The chairman of the auto company where the main characters work is described as "worldly and sophisticated", which is more descriptive of Henry Ford II than the (relatively) faceless top managers of GM or Chrysler.
4. The management structure of the company Adam Trenton works for is much closer to Ford's management structure than GM's. Ford had a centralized product planning function for all of its brands (this was Adam's job in the book), but for many years, GM's divisions did much of their own product planning and engineering, and most of these jobs were outside Detroit, in the far northern Detroit suburbs / outstate Michigan towns where GM's divisions were based.

I would not be surprised if Erica Trenton was loosely based on Henry Ford II's 2nd wife, an Italian sexpot much younger than Henry, who reportedly had her share of legal troubles that were "hushed up" while they were married.

However, I think some elements of other auto companies were included. I think the assembly plant Matt Zalecki was assistant manager of is either the (now closed) Chrysler Lynch Road assembly plant in northeast Detroit, or the (also closed) Dodge Main assembly plant in Hamtramck. The plant is described as "north of the Fischer Freeway", and the four factory workers who take on the Mafia there "head south for the inner city" after robbing the vending machine cash collectors. In the late 1960's GM had only one assembly plant in Detroit, the now closed Cadillac assembly line on Clark Street, in the heart of the inner city. Likewise, Ford's only factories were / are the massive Rouge complex south of the inner city, and in Wayne, MI - about 20 miles west of Detroit. Although Hailey could have taken one of these factories and "moved" it to the north side of Detroit, the layout of the factory in the book doesn't match up with the layout of either the Ford Rouge plant (which is far too big) or the Cadillac Clark Street plant, which was so space constrained that car bodies were built two miles away, then trucked to Clark Street to be mated with the engine / frame.

The proving grounds Adam Trenton and Brett DeLosanto visit is the GM proving grounds in Milford; when they are visiting, railroad locomotive brakes and a stove are also being tested. GM owned FrigidAire appliances, and the Electro Motive locomotive company, in the 1960s.

Managers of all three of Detroit's big auto companies lived (and live) in the Quarton Lake neighborhood of Birmingham, where Adam and Erica Trenton lived. In the 1960s, a top executive of GM, who lived in this neighborhood, had his company car modified so when he beeped the horn, the horn would play "See the USA in your Chevrolet", just to irritate his next door neighbor, who was a Ford executive.

TV star Tim Allen was growing up in this neighborhood when the book came out; it served as the setting for his TV series "Home Improvement" in the 1990s.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineCmk10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

Thank you very much WA707atMSP . I think I actually liked Wheels better than Airport or Hotel as the subplots tied together better and I didn't find Hailey pontificating about what he saw the future of the industry as being as much as he did in the other books. It also feels less dated and I really liked the ending in this one.


"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2255 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think "Adam Trenton" might have been at least loosely based on John DeLorean, who at the time the book was published was president of Chevrolet; he had won acclaim in the mid 1960s for completely changing Pontiac's stodgy image, by developing sporty cars like the GTO, before moving on to Chevy.

John DeLorean had a young 2nd wife, was the son of a steel worker, drove sports cars, was very outspoken, and dressed noticeably flashier than his co workers, like "Adam Trenton" in Wheels. None of these behaviors endeared him to his fellow GM executives; he was fired in the mid 1970s. After his firing, he went on to start his own car company, and acquired further notoriety. I believe he passed away a year or two ago.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2037 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 11):
This is pure speculation on my part, but I think "Adam Trenton" might have been at least loosely based on John DeLorean,

I had alway thought the same thing.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 11):
Seaholm Maples are #1!

Sorry, but Seaholm Sucks.....Groves Falcons are #1 Go Groves!
 Wink  Wink  Wink


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6896 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1978 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
1971
TW 457 DTW 1025 SFO 1137
TW185 DTW 1420 SFO 1552
TW481 DTW1745 SFO 1867

2/71 OAG shows just AA and UA nonstops-- no TWA.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1969 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 13):
2/71 OAG shows just AA and UA nonstops-- no TWA

That was from: April 30, 1972 System Timetable, my mistake.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2255 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1883 times:



Quoting Cmk10 (Reply 10):
I think I actually liked Wheels better than Airport or Hotel as the subplots tied together better and I didn't find Hailey pontificating about what he saw the future of the industry as being as much as he did in the other books. It also feels less dated and I really liked the ending in this one.

I agree 100%. The way the book ended, with one of the main characters remaining an auto industry employee because he feels the auto industry can change, and the other main character leaving the industry because he feels the industry has been unwilling to address its problems, is every bit as prescient now as it was in 1971 when the book was published.

Unfortunately, the other question the book posed - would Detroit be able to recover from the 1967 riots, and provide opportunities for advancement for its poorly educated underclass, has sadly been answered in the negative. As we've discussed in our other Detroit related threads, the "Big three" have shed hundreds of thousands of jobs in the Detroit area over the last 40 years, leaving sizable portions of the city, and even its suburbs, with abandoned factories and homes. The City of Detroit has the infrastructure to accomodate more than 2 million people, but just 750,000 residents, and has been so far been unwilling to make tough decisions about what to do with its blighted neighborhoods.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
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