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IAD Hub For A Second Airline?  
User currently offlineEastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Right now IAD is UA country. What are the chances of AA or any other airline moving in to ramp up international destination. Wouldn't IAD be a better gateway after all renovations than a crowded JFK?
I know DL and CO fly to Europe from JFK-EWR, but what about AA?


AA will Rise Again!
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4700 times:



Quoting Eastern023 (Thread starter):
I know DL and CO fly to Europe from JFK-EWR, but what about AA?

Um, in case you weren't aware, AA has numerous European services ex-JFK (a little research goes a long way without a doubt).

And no, IAD could never weigh up to NYC's international traffic. The numbers simply aren't there.


User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

This is a good question.

I think there is room for another carrier to start an international hub at IAD. This is a major metropolitan area, with plenty of people to book travel overseas, and it would indeed take some of the pressure off JFK and EWR, and maybe even ORD.

Unfortunately, I think the odds of this happening are remote - at least for now. Maybe down the road, when the economic picture brightens some, but not anytime soon.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4469 times:
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I don't see another US major starting up in IAD. All of them are lrrady in the area.

US in PHL and CLT
CO in EWR
UA in IAD
DL in JFK
AA in JFK, also in RDU with a smaller hub in the catchment area
NW in MEM/DTW and also partly in JFK

I do not see it happening any time soon. Independence tried and bankrupt.

IAD will stay UA dominated for a long time.



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight: AMS-FRA-KUL-FRA-AMS
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4667 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4347 times:

in terms of an airline hub strength, UA @ IAD is pretty weak compared to hubs of other airlines and even within UA compared to ORD and DEN.

Much opportunity remains to grow IAD into a stronger hub, whats not helping it though is the poor access to the city compared to DCA and BWI.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineUALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 723 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

Also, keep in mind that, in addition to being a hub for UA, there are a significant number of foreign carriers that offer multiple services to their respective home countries.

In fact, I have to believe that IAD has service from more carriers than all but a handful of other major U.S. airports, including many other international airports.

That, coupled with the other relatively nearby hubs as previously mentioned, is probably enough to discourage another domestic carrier from setting up a major hub operation (although jetBlue did/does consider it a focus city/large operation/insert-term-of-choice here).



"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4100 times:



Quoting Eastern023 (Thread starter):
I know DL and CO fly to Europe from JFK-EWR, but what about AA?

They do fly international Services from JFK to Europe.

LHR 5x
CDG 2x
FCO 1x
BRU 1x
ZRH 1x
MXP 1x
STN 1x
BCN 1x



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4031 times:



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
Much opportunity remains to grow IAD into a stronger hub, whats not helping it though is the poor access to the city compared to DCA and BWI.

[checkmark]

If the DC govt. ever gets its act together with the planned Metro expansion to IAD, then this will facilitate expansion. Having lived in DC, there's little incentive to go to IAD unless you fly only on UA or are flying internationally. DCA is right in the middle of the city, and low fare options are plentiful at BWI, which is about the same distance from downtown DC as IAD.


User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4008 times:



Quoting Cba (Reply 7):
If the DC govt. ever gets its act together with the planned Metro expansion to IAD, then this will facilitate expansion. Having lived in DC, there's little incentive to go to IAD unless you fly only on UA or are flying internationally.

For clairfication, it's VA and local VA governments -- they have to get their act together. DC government have nothing to do with IAD or Metro in VA.

Also, the Federal Transit Agency have to get their act together.

It's all political out in VA and US Department of Transportation.

Even if we get Metro (Silver Line), I don't see how it will intergrate into Orange Line -- they're busy and packed.


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

IAD was a hub for a second airline. Remember DH (Independence?) I also doubt Washington could support a second international hub with UA and the *A carriers serving the whole market. If a carrier wanted to start a new international hub in the Northeast, other markets like BOS would get first pick over IAD.


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User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

With UA cutting domestic capacity, I wouldn't be surprised to see WN add a few new city pairs from IAD. That's probably not what you had in mind when you said "hub," because a few more city pairs wouldn't even bring IAD into the top WN focus cities. But I think it's worth mentioning since not too many other parties are likely to start new domestic routes, especially from IAD.

User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3723 times:

I agree, Greater Washington has a rock solid O & D market with plenty of foreign flag carriers (* A and non *) and United's strong presence . Other than the God-awful condition and layout of the C/D gates...I think UA has leveraged IAD wisely from a market development standpoint. DCA and BWI have the domestic share locked up. B9 and WN have siphoned off the small IAD domestic share that has not been claimed by DL,NW,US & AA.

There is a STORY at UAL (no basis in fact mind you...this is talk) that AA was considering growing IAD in the early 2000s. United told AA that they would abort their money loosing MIA hub and raise the white flag down there if AA backs off at IAD. Obviously such a hand shake agreement is illegal on so many levels....but its am amusing tale nonetheless. The northeast corridor has been staked out by legacies and LCC's alike.. and barring a liquidation or Congress lifting foreign cabotage restrictions, I do not see that dymanic changing.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2440 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3702 times:

I don't see another US airline moving on IAD anytime soon given market conditions, personally. Best bet for new int'l service is from a new and/or European carrier taking advantage of open skies.

Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 8):
Even if we get Metro (Silver Line), I don't see how it will intergrate into Orange Line -- they're busy and packed.

More trains at rush hour and the upcoming 8-car trains? Or maybe the Silver Line will go all the way to Rosslyn.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3673 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
More trains at rush hour and the upcoming 8-car trains? Or maybe the Silver Line will go all the way to Rosslyn.

We're running some 8-car trains. It'll be a year or so before all will be 8-cars trains. Metro is considering reroute every other Blue Line trains into Yellow Line at Pentagon City to free up the lines going to Rosslyn.

The plan for Silver Line is go go to Rossalyn, follow the Blue LIne to end in Maryland.

Dave


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2440 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3638 times:



Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 13):

We're running some 8-car trains. It'll be a year or so before all will be 8-cars trains. Metro is considering reroute every other Blue Line trains into Yellow Line at Pentagon City to free up the lines going to Rosslyn.

The plan for Silver Line is go go to Rossalyn, follow the Blue LIne to end in Maryland.

Interesting. I suppose it would make the most sense to take the Silver line from Dulles to Metro Center at least. But none of this will happen until at least 2015 so they have time to work it out.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineB777A340Fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting Cba (Reply 7):
Having lived in DC, there's little incentive to go to IAD unless you fly only on UA or are flying internationally. DCA is right in the middle of the city, and low fare options are plentiful at BWI, which is about the same distance from downtown DC as IAD.

I would have to disagree with this statement. IAD serves a big chunk of the northern VA suburbs. Having lived in DC for nearly ten years, I have only flown out of DCA and BWI once, the rest was out of IAD. IAD, to many, including those in Tysons Corner and the tech corridor along the Dulles toll road, has been the airport of choice. Not necessarily due to UAL being there.

Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 8):
For clairfication, it's VA and local VA governments -- they have to get their act together. DC government have nothing to do with IAD or Metro in VA.

In defense of the VA and local governments, they seem to have their acts together. It seems to be groups that are trying to stall the project by lobbying an underground metro system (instead of the currently proposed above-ground tracks) and the Dept of Transportation/politicians on capitol hill that are stalling the project. Recently, the Silver line received the long-awaited final approval from the Dept of Transportation to go into the final design phase. It is my understanding that there is the FINAL approval before funds are disbursed. I agree though that there was too many wrong decisions made (i personally would not have so many stations and would have proposed an underground option in order to reduce an already crowded traffic pattern), but now that the project is almost reality, I wouldn't push any changes to jeopardize the critical fundings needed to have the project become reality. Dulles needs metro access in order to grow further. If MDW can have train access to downtown Chicago, Dulles can have access to downtown DC.

On another note, I thought IAD was offically classified by UAL as a "key city" and not a hub. I thought UAL's hub was ORD?

[Edited 2008-06-11 06:06:21]

User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2704 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3535 times:



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 15):
In defense of the VA and local governments, they seem to have their acts together. It seems to be groups that are trying to stall the project by lobbying an underground metro system (instead of the currently proposed above-ground tracks) and the Dept of Transportation/politicians on capitol hill that are stalling the project. Recently, the Silver line received the long-awaited final approval from the Dept of Transportation to go into the final design phase. It is my understanding that there is the FINAL approval before funds are disbursed. I agree though that there was too many wrong decisions made (i personally would not have so many stations and would have proposed an underground option in order to reduce an already crowded traffic pattern), but now that the project is almost reality, I wouldn't push any changes to jeopardize the critical fundings needed to have the project become reality. Dulles needs metro access in order to grow further. If MDW can have train access to downtown Chicago, Dulles can have access to downtown DC.

Great news, I have been following the progression of this project from a distance...great things are on the horizon for IAD:

New Fourth Runway 2008
AeroTrain System Connecting All Terminals 2009
Concourse B Expansion 2008
Additional projects already completed and more for the future...

http://www.metwashairports.com/dulles/d2_dulles_development_2/projects

I just hope UA is around to be a part of it.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 15):
On another note, I thought IAD was offically classified by UAL as a "key city" and not a hub. I thought UAL's hub was ORD?

IAD is definately a UA hub; it is shown as such on their route map...

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1020,00.html


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3525 times:

With the third N-S runway opening soon, I can see addional flights by an existing carrier
but not to hub standards. Perhaps airTran or Southwest will add a dozen or so more departures over the next year but thats all I can see happening at IAD.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3483 times:



Quoting Cba (Reply 7):
If the DC govt. ever gets its act together with the planned Metro expansion to IAD

It's the U.S. Department of Transportation, and I have serious doubts that they will approve the project as presently proposed. When and if they do it will take 10 years or more to get the line built.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3467 times:



Quoting DALCA (Reply 3):
NW in MEM/DTW and also partly in JFK

NW has not had any International presence at JFK since around 2005 when they dropped NRT. As of right now, I believe they're only flights out of Kennedy are to MSP and DTW. DTW is the main transatlantic hub for NW even though it's not on the east coast.

I always considered for JetBlue to have some sort of a focus city/hub at IAD. Not sure what they refer to it as or what it will eventually grow to be, but the presence is definately there. If/when they expand internationally, I would think they would launch a few routes from IAD in addition (and also the traffic relief) to their headquarters at JFK.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3461 times:



Quoting DALCA (Reply 3):
Independence tried and bankrupt.

I don't think that Indy can be used as a good example. No airline could operate a fleet of 50 seat CRJs and breakeven charging $40-100 per seat. They knew they were bleeding and they tried to speed up the A319 deliveries but it was just to late for them.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3340 times:



Quoting Contrails (Reply 18):
It's the U.S. Department of Transportation, and I have serious doubts that they will approve the project as presently proposed. When and if they do it will take 10 years or more to get the line built.

Well, as of a month or so ago it was back on track for federal funding. They still need to resolve the issue of whether to run an elevated track or tunnel through Tysons. I believe it's already been approved for $159 million of federal money, which is for the portion out to Wiehle Avenue (Phase I - scheduled for 2013), suggesting a lot more would be on the way if the feds ever get on board for Phase II. And yes, it will take a hell of a long time.

http://www.dullesmetro.com/ is a good place to look for info on the Silver Line as a whole.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14):
Interesting. I suppose it would make the most sense to take the Silver line from Dulles to Metro Center at least. But none of this will happen until at least 2015 so they have time to work it out.

Everything I've seen so far indicates they intend to run it all the way to Stadium-Armory.


User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

They really do need to get Dulles connected to some sort of train system. I've been trying not to drive much and it's nearly impossible to get to without a car. I'm going from NY-Dulles on Monday and Amtrak goes into DC but then you have to take the Metro out somewhere to get a bus to Dulles. I can get to BWI, Philly, NY via Amtrak, it's weird that such a big airport is such a hassle to get to.

User currently offlineB777A340Fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3111 times:



Quoting IADCA (Reply 21):
Well, as of a month or so ago it was back on track for federal funding. They still need to resolve the issue of whether to run an elevated track or tunnel through Tysons. I believe it's already been approved for $159 million of federal money, which is for the portion out to Wiehle Avenue (Phase I - scheduled for 2013), suggesting a lot more would be on the way if the feds ever get on board for Phase II. And yes, it will take a hell of a long time.

The project is much more than that!! I think the DOT is to provide nearly a $1billion for this project. The overall cost of the project is well over $2billion.


User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3061 times:



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 23):
The project is much more than that!! I think the DOT is to provide nearly a $1billion for this project. The overall cost of the project is well over $2billion.

Supposedly they will be providing 48%, or roughly $900 billion. The 159 is only what's been fully authorized by the feds. As I'm sure you know, there are multiple steps involved in getting money from the FOT/FTA. The rest of it's still coming through the pipeline.


25 B777A340Fan : $900billion? that train better be damn good! Sorry, I thought you were saying that $159million was the only thing the DOT was contributing to the pro
26 IADCA : Yeah, for 900 billion the feds are offering to buy the Commonwealth of Virginia. They'll give it 900 million for the train, though As of this far, th
27 Panova98 : As airports go, IAD is one of the younger ones, opening 1962. And some of '60s Chrysler mobile lounges are still in use. Unbelievable! Amazing that it
28 Steeler83 : I don't think any airline will be adding any substantial number of flights anytime soon... Airtran? As much as I would like to see them add flights,
29 AmtrakGuy : Oh, I didn't know -- must have missed the news about this. One of the problems with Metro in DC (underground), there are few places to park spare rai
30 Eastern023 : A little reading the whole post goes a long way too.... I think there's still room for another US carrier at IAD.
31 HouStrategies : B6 and WN will almost certainly expand over time. But another international hub seems highly unlikely. The DC economy is almost all about the federal
32 NYC2theworld : You have to remember one thing though, its not just the US Gov't flying internationally. Anybody on a government contract, subcontract, or grant HAS t
33 DCA-ROCguy : No, there is not market capacity to support another whole legacy-carrier hub at IAD. The seven million + people of the DC-Baltimore metro-glom are ser
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