Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
NWA DC-9's Future?  
User currently offline3holeflyer From United States of America, joined May 2008, 30 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9830 times:

With or without the NWA/DL merger going through, what does the future look like for the NWA DC-9's? Would anybody besides NWA see the value of the heavy maintenance that has been was done on these planes by NWA? How does their fuel consumption compare to the older 737's? Does the DC-9 have any particular operating advantage where NWA uses them? Would they ever be candidates for newer engines?

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9822 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting 3holeflyer (Thread starter):
Does the DC-9 have any particular operating advantage where NWA uses them?

They are paid for. That is a big deal.

Quoting 3holeflyer (Thread starter):
Would they ever be candidates for newer engines?

I doubt it. The newest one in the fleet was built in 1979 or 1980 so with the amount of hours and cycles that have to be on them it wouldn't be worth the engineering effort and cost.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9801 times:

It's "relatively" inexpensive for NWA to operate the DC-9s because they are paid for. The on going joke is that when the last Airbus is retired a DC9 will fly the airbus crew home from the desert.


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9793 times:

They will be replaced soon and be turned into these:



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDLflynhayn From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 441 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9740 times:

Hey maybe HA could use some of them?i know they recently found four more 717,but maybe they can get a deal from DL/NW after the merge!

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9693 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
They will be replaced soon and be turned into these:

Always a good one, but in reality no aircraft can be made into drinking cans due to toxic levels of chemicals in the metal.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9621 times:

Although NW has maintained their DC-9s well, no one else in the world has the capability to do so -- not without NW's substantial tech / ops structure, strategies and pool of skills. Expect a few of these birds to go to Central America or Africa. They will not live long. Quite possibly, most will never fly again after storage.

It is surprising, of course, that NW still flies these jets, since they probably are not the right choice anymore... for anybody.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9605 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):

Always a good one, but in reality no aircraft can be made into drinking cans due to toxic levels of chemicals in the metal.

OT: But what do you do with the metal, then?


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9580 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 3):

More ways than one...remember, DL serves Coke...NW serves Pepsi
Guess whats gonna happen to Pepsi next year as far as NW/DL in concerned?

NW should have apx 65 or so nines still flying on or just after January 1st.
What happens to the nine in 2009 probably isnt good if you like this airplane.
Its almost a slam dunk they will be headed for the desert ....gradually .
safe  cry 



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9520 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
Always a good one, but in reality no aircraft can be made into drinking cans due to toxic levels of chemicals in the metal.

What chemicals are in the "metal"?

I know aluminum is alloyed with, zinc, copper, silicate and other minerals but I have never heard of it being alloyed with chemicals.


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4414 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9501 times:

These aircraft although my favourite have been let go to the point that they are dirty and uncomfortable to fly in. Isn't there a altitude restriction on these planes?


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9453 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 10):
These aircraft although my favourite have been let go to the point that they are dirty and uncomfortable to fly in.

The interiors are no better or worse than the 32xs.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9423 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):

The interiors are no better or worse than the 32xs.

In fact, NW upgraded the interiors. I think that from a pax point of view, the interiors are identical to the 717 interiors.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9401 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
I think that from a pax point of view, the interiors are identical to the 717 interiors.

Agreed, though the newest 712s will show less wear and tear than the NW interiors, which IIRC were done in the mid-90s.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9401 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
They will be replaced soon and be turned into these:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):


Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
Always a good one, but in reality no aircraft can be made into drinking cans due to toxic levels of chemicals in the metal.

What chemicals are in the "metal"?

I know aluminum is alloyed with, zinc, copper, silicate and other minerals but I have never heard of it being alloyed with chemicals.

Another reason they will not be turned into soda and beer cans is that they are made of too high a grade of aluninum for such use.



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9393 times:



Quoting DLflynhayn (Reply 4):
Hey maybe HA could use some of them?i know they recently found four more 717,but maybe they can get a deal from DL/NW after the merge!

Not a chance. One of the biggest advantage HA got when they replaced their DC-9-50s with the 717s was in terms of fuel burn (this wound up ultimately killing AQ w/their 732s).

On mainland maintenance/delivery runs; the 717 only required 4 auxilary tanks to do the job vs. 9 tanks for the DC-9. With fuel prices the way they are, HA would be very foolish/fuelish IMHO to use a comparitive guzzler like the DC-9 for their inter-island hops.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9367 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 15):
Not a chance. One of the biggest advantage HA got when they replaced their DC-9-50s with the 717s was in terms of fuel burn (this wound up ultimately killing AQ w/their 732s).

The biggest reason Aloha went under was Mesa's Go Airline which flew passengers almost for FREE. Now Mesa is struggling to stay in business and may also file bankruptcy.
The 737-200 is a great aircraft for the type of routes Aloha flew. Very short and very frequent.



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9349 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 10):
Isn't there a altitude restriction on these planes?

Well lets see now...........................
EWR-DTW on June 2 was at 34,000 and DTW-IAD on June 7th was at 29,000.
I dont think there is an alitude max on the nines.
FYI
Coming back from IAD on June 7th, the model 50, N787NC,
flew the short route at 4,000 ft.....a real buzz.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9340 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 15):
(this wound up ultimately killing AQ w/their 732s)

Yes and no. It has been discussed a ton of times on the boards why AQ didn't replace the intra-Island routes with 73G's or just 733/734/735. It was basically the consensus that while the 732 was far thirstier, it was a far better performer for the given territory. I'm no techie by any means, so I can't go into the details at all, but I'm sure a quick search would give a lot of good info on how the 732 was superior to 2nd and 3rd generation 737's in Hawaii.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9317 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
I'm no techie by any means, so I can't go into the details at all, but I'm sure a quick search would give a lot of good info on how the 732 was superior to 2nd and 3rd generation 737's in Hawaii.

I believe that on short Hawaiian routes, the 732 actually isn't so bad vs a 733. It is in steady cruise where the 733 has its greatest benefits.

Partly, this comes from the rumors that NW DC-9s compare quite well to A319s on extremely short trips, in terms of fuel burn.

I remember boarding a 733 in Hawaii some 20 years ago... forget the airline.


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9299 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
Although NW has maintained their DC-9s well, no one else in the world has the capability to do so -- not without NW's substantial tech / ops structure, strategies and pool of skills.

Ahh say that again?? That pool of experience hit the street in 2005. Virtually ALL maint has been farmed out. Although most airlines farm out some work the industry average of inhouse mechanics is approx 5 to7 mechanics per a/c in the fleet. NW's current in house average is 0.8 mechancs per a/c in the fleet. They HAD a great tech/ops structure but NOT now.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9225 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 20):
tech/ops structure but NOT now.

They closed out their mechanics but not their entire tech / ops group. Plus many of those mechanics crossed the line. I see what you are saying but still... nobody else can run a DC-9 fleet anymore. Nobody remembers how.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9225 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
It was basically the consensus that while the 732 was far thirstier, it was a far better performer for the given territory.

Performance is all well and good; but when fuel prices rise as sharp as they have, consumption does come into play here.

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 16):
The biggest reason Aloha went under was Mesa's Go Airline which flew passengers almost for FREE. Now Mesa is struggling to stay in business and may also file bankruptcy.
The 737-200 is a great aircraft for the type of routes Aloha flew. Very short and very frequent.

Can anyone say, "What comes around, goes around.Big grin

I'm not saying that the 732 wasn't suited for the job; but at $100+/barrel (fuel was cheaper than it is now when AQ bailed), fuel cost DOES become an issue. No offense, but I'm well aware of Mesa's Free Go flights contributing to pushing AQ out of business; however, the spike in fel prices certainly didn't help AQ's cause. The one question, I don't believe has been asked (maybe it was but it was buried in another thread): if fuel prices didn't go bisserk, would AQ still be flying despite Go's presence?



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9201 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):

Always a good one, but in reality no aircraft can be made into drinking cans due to toxic levels of chemicals in the metal.

OT: But what do you do with the metal, then?

It's melted down and recycled for other industrial purposes using similar types of alloys.


User currently offlineCVG2LGA From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 635 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9113 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 21):
but still... nobody else can run a DC-9 fleet anymore. Nobody remembers how.

ABX/DHL (thankfully) sure does  Wink

Tchau

DA-



They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
25 DLflynhayn : Not if they can control the ticket prices once Go is gone!hopefully!
26 DLflynhayn : I believe HA mechanics could remember even if they don't want to!
27 Isitsafenow : Forgot to include that was on the Detroit-Flint leg. Makes a big dif doesn't it? safe
28 GoBoeing : So you're saying a Northwest DC-9 flew from IAD to DTW at 4,000 the whole flight?
29 Stratosphere : True, They have to a have a maintenance program per se per the FAA. However, The ATL hanger was part and parcel to the DC-9. It was for the most part
30 AirframeAS : I think you have it backwards due to..... Alodine & polyurethane paint isn't very delicious.
31 SNCntry32 : I find it intresting that UA and CO are parking 737's while NW continues to operate 30-40 year old airplanes. They must be doing something right to ma
32 Planefxr : There are plenty of DL AMT's that remember how to work on DC-9-30,40 and 50's, after all they still operate 117 DC-9-88's and 16 DC-9-90's. Douglas j
33 Nwaesc : See below: You beat me to it, Stratosphere... Flighty-- Here's a post written by someone else on another board. It's quite a testament to the skill t
34 Cubsrule : How has the change to outsourced m/x affected the dispatch reliability of the -9s?
35 Nwarooster : As long as you have a pencil and a MEL sticker, you can fly anything. That keeps the dispatch level up when you have no mechanics to work on an aircr
36 Cubsrule : ...but eventually it catches up with you. Is there really no way to quantify the quality of the old work versus the current work?
37 727forever : Agreed. The DC-9s probably won't be around in say 7 years, but I think they'll be here in the short term. Until capacity reductions and oil prices be
38 DeltaL1011man : DL is dropping the DC-9-30s ASAP and thinking about keeping the 40s and 50s.
39 SEPilot : All commercial aircraft must have detailed service manuals, and all qualified aircraft mechanics know how to do all common repairs. There is nothing
40 Tornado82 : Not for long.
41 SYfan100 : NWAs Dc-9s are going to turn into Miller Lite Cans for drinking out on the golf course after you hit the ball in the water for the 2nd time. Slowly th
42 FX1816 : Actually the are not officially DC-9-88's and DC-9-90's they are only called MD-88 and MD-90 respectively. FX1816
43 WESTERN737800 : NW will probaly use the DC9 to replace the A319/320s.
44 SYfan100 : At a previous job I use to have. I worked with a ex nwa DC-10 Maintance person who ended up getting laid off because he was at the bottom of the list
45 Flighty : Hahaha... well anyway... very interesting to hear about NW's history on the DC-9. I still do not believe anybody is going to shoulder the burden of th
46 DeltAirlines : Personally, I find NW's DC-9s to be in better shape than their A320s. Row 5 on those DC-9s are some of the best domestic coach seats in the country.
47 SYfan100 : I found the Dc-9-51 aircraft to be the best one out of the 9 fleet. It was like a 727-200 almost it seemed like to me. It should be noted it had noth
48 MMEPHX : whatever happens to the NW DC-9s, got to hand it to Douglas for building such a massively strong airframe that can (could) be economically maintained
49 Kalvado : For example, one of "aircraft grade" aluminum alloys, 7075, contains 5-6% Zinc, and 0.2-0.3% chromium. 99+% Al is typical for Al foil, another typica
50 Havaloc : Northwest will fly low to avoid turbulence. The service ceiling on a DC-9-50 is 37,000, but typical is 33,000. I also came across an interesting stati
51 GARUDAROD : I wonder why no one has seriously loooked at mounting the engines from the B717's on the DC9 fleet. I know UPS had reengined and hushkitted engines on
52 SEPilot : The engineering and certification costs would be prohibitive. NW does not have the engineering expertise to do it, and Boeing would be uninterested i
53 Willbdsp : And then US Airways will charge $2 for them!
54 SNCntry32 : Back this up.
55 Cloudyapple : People keep saying coke cans but there is a difference between food grade aluminium and scrap alu. You don't want your coke cans to be made of old ai
56 Brilondon : That is not encouraging. I found it to be quite uncomfortable. About the 32x's are they going to stay once DL's takeover er... merger with NW goes th
57 MOBflyer : Besides ownership cost savings, the DC-9 is more fuel efficient on short hauls than the Airbus/Ejets
58 Cubsrule : Interesting... why? It can get cold and loud by the exits (and it's obviously loud in back, though depending on your perspective that may be part of
59 Brilondon : You apparently like them but I am 68cm tall and have been into bodybuilding for some years now and find the pitch rather restrictive especially in th
60 Cubsrule : 30 inch pitch is pretty lousy (though some other 'good' airlines like LA have it), but that's not a function of the aircraft.
61 NwAflyer07 : I read a transcript of a discussion between Richard Anderson and the maintainence executives from NW/DL that the -30s will be gone almost immedietly a
62 Nwarooster : The limiting factor on continuing to fly the DC-9 has been set by the Feds at 100,000 cycles and the next check which is due. This can only be extende
63 TrijetsRMissed : Interesting to see that some are saying DL may hang onto the DC-9-50s. My gut instinct says that's wishful thinking. We're still waiting for the confi
64 Bmacleod : They should donate one to a museum like AC did in 2002. The rest will be torn up and recycled. The A320 though leased is very fuel-efficient even to D
65 Bobnwa : Did Anderson tell you that? How do you know that? How unreliable were they compared to when the were at NWA. Never sw any figures about that. Could y
66 KingAir200 : They regularly go up to 35,000 feet. Exactly. Which is why I have a hard time believing this business about how ragged the 9 interiors are. Now grant
67 2H4 : I flew on one of each yesterday, and the 9 was definitely more comfortable than the 320. 2H4
68 Post contains images Flynavy : Next.
69 Nwarooster : Before I retired from Northwest, we had quite a number of these hanging around. I along with a lot of other mechanics retired just before AMFA pulled
70 Xaphan : I hope Delta finds one of their former fleet and has it refurbished in DL colors and interior, like they did their DC 3 and then place it in their mus
71 Brilondon : Actually NW was planning to dispose of their DC9-30 aircraft by the end of next year any way. This was stated when they were coming out of bankruptcy
72 PSU.DTW.SCE : When NW announced their capacity reductions that will occur in the 4th quarter, they announced that they will be parking about half of the remaining
73 NwAflyer07 : Not sure where it went to. It's pretty much common knowledge that the -50s will be around a while, but ill look around and see if I can find a copy.
74 DeltaL1011man : It was on DLnet guys. Just ask Mayor.........he looked at it too.
75 Beertrucker : I have been keeping my mouth shut on a lot of the DL/NW merger/fleet talks. But once again the same question always comes up in my mind. WHAT ARE THEY
76 727forever : The RR/BMW is quite a bit heavier than the old JT-8. This added weight causes the airplane to be very tail heavy. This is why the 717 has most of it'
77 Planefxr : They were certified as such. Yes they are "called" MD-88's and MD-90's, but were certified under the DC-9-XX.
78 Planefxr : I would not compare ATA's maintenance program with that of Delta's. If ATA struggled with the DC-10's it was probably due to lack of experience on it
79 Planefxr : Hush kits have to do with noise abatement making it stage 3 compliant and do nothing to aid in fuel efficiency, it anything the added weight of the k
80 Viscount724 : I believe that is incorrect. If not mistaken, only the MD-81/82/83/87 were certified as the DC-9-81/82/83/87. As far as I know the MD-88 and MD-90 we
81 Warren747sp : Strange enough, I think the Saudis will ultimately decide the fate of those DC-9s with how much oil they are willing to pump daily.
82 SEPilot : That would make it totally unfeasible. I didn't realize that the 717 engines were so much heavier.
83 727forever : I can tell you that the type certificate for the aircraft says MD-88 or MD-90, not DC-9-88. However, my type rating is for the DC-9 not an MD-88 or M
84 474218 : The following aircraft are all covered by the same Type Certification Data Sheet: DC-9-10, -20, -30, -40, -50, -81 (MD-81), -82 (MD-82), -83 (MD-83),
85 TrijetsRMissed : Sure, all of the -9's won't disappear over night. But my point was that any way you look at it they are in the twilight of their careers with NW. How
86 Planefxr : Thanks, I thought this was the case.
87 DeltaL1011man : I thought the MD-90s where done in Mexico (along with the V2500s) Thanks for clearing that up Ahhh my good friend Planefx thanks for the back up. (qu
88 Planefxr : NW's A320's have CFM56-5's. DL's old 737-300's had CFM56-3's and the 737-800's have CFM56-7's, all three variants perform well in hot and high. MD-88
89 Spacepope : NW's CFM powered A-320s seem to do quite well way up here at COS (6000+ feet), though the plane that operated NWA1233 on Sunday night is in need of a
90 KingAir200 : I'm sure the CFM powered 320s will do just fine in SLC. They already do.
91 Viscount724 : Thanks for the info. I think you are confirming however that it's not correct to refer to an MD-88 or MD-90 as a DC-9-88 or DC-9-90, unlike earlier m
92 DeltaL1011man : Hmm I thought that the MD-90 did better out there than the 738s. Shame I sure hope DL will by the ones in China so they can bring that work back to A
93 Transpac787 : :Sigh: You really have no idea what you're talking about here, do you?? What evidence do you offer to back this up?? While the A320-212 (CFM56-5A3 mo
94 KingAir200 : Well, they don't mention the A320 in the Book of Delta, so...
95 DeltaL1011man : Dude what is your problem. This is twice you have bitten my head off for no reason. I have always heard the the DL 738s don't like the hot and high o
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
NWA DC-9s To YQB? posted Sun Sep 16 2007 23:53:53 by KingAir200
NWA DC-9 Emergency Landing IN BUF posted Fri May 18 2007 23:45:11 by Teneriffe77
NWA DC 10s At MSP 2-20-07 posted Fri Feb 23 2007 07:58:04 by Toering
NWA DC-9 Avionics posted Tue Feb 20 2007 13:54:42 by Highliner2
Ex-NWA DC-10 Spotting posted Wed Jan 17 2007 09:01:42 by B741
"Sneaky" NWA DC-10 Flights! posted Fri Jan 12 2007 05:26:44 by Crownvic
NWA DC-10's posted Sun Dec 24 2006 09:05:01 by IPFreely
NWA DC-10 In GRB Today posted Sun Nov 26 2006 15:55:59 by Legacytravel
NWA DC-10's posted Tue Nov 21 2006 05:06:38 by Adam727
Current Domestic NWA DC-10 Routes posted Wed Oct 11 2006 19:52:42 by DLX737200