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Dobbins ARB - Could It Be A 2nd Airport For ATL?  
User currently offlineHamfist From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 614 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Heard this mentioned once or twice by friends in Atlanta, and seen some posters here mention the need for a second airport serving Atlanta.

With the Naval Air Station set to close, the relatively low current traffic load and proximity to the wealthier side of Atlanta, it would seem possible to at least consider it. The runway is certainly long enough and airports such as Charleston and Ft Walton function as joint civilian airports and Air Force bases.

Seems like that could give carriers such as JetBlue or Southwest some access to the Atlanta area?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFXRA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 714 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

This has been discussed in several threads.

But the consensus is the NIMBY population would never go for it. Plus the big D doesn't want a second airport and that would be a very strong lobby against.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3774 times:



Quoting Hamfist (Thread starter):
Seems like that could give carriers such as JetBlue or Southwest some access to the Atlanta area?

The only thing preventing B6 from starting service to ATL is B6 itself. If you recall, B6 served ATL in their early years but chickened out rather quickly.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Not going to happen for the following reasons:

1. The NAS Atlanta side of Dobbins is going to be taken over by the Georgia National Guard and will also become the HQ for the Georgia Dept. of Defense.

2. The NIMBYS in Cobb County will never let it happen. Back in the late 1980s, there was a Naval Reserve jet that crashed into an apartment complex near the base and the locals really were up in arms. They've previously fought expansion at RYY (the county-owned airport) for fear of commercial flights.

3. Too close to ATL. Training flights into/out of MGE have to follow very strict flight patterns and have strict airspace in which to conduct training maneuvers so not to get into any potential conflicts with the ATL pattern.

4. Lack of public transit. While Cobb County does have bus service, direct connection to MARTA's rail service involves a long bus ride. Perhaps a commuter rail line to Downtown could be feasible once the Multi Modal Terminal gets built (which like the second airport is in development Hell).

Delta and AirTran are not big on a second airport either. On a side note, MGE was originally designed to be a civil airport and in fact had been named Rickenbacker Field in honor of Eastern Air Lines' President,, who had agreed to serve the airport. WWII put the brakes on that as the field was taken over by the War Department.

[Edited 2008-06-10 14:33:11]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23308 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3758 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):

The only thing preventing B6 from starting service to ATL is B6 itself. If you recall, B6 served ATL in their early years but chickened out rather quickly.

If B6 opened ATL today, it would be from JFK, and the west coast experience isn't really relevant.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineEXMEMWIDGET From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Can someone please tell me what is a NIMBY?

User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3708 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3701 times:
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Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 5):
Can someone please tell me what is a NIMBY?

Not
In
My
Back
Yard

Douchebags that live by the airport yet hate the noise. People who moved in knowing full well that there was an airport and now want to restrict it.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3701 times:



Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 5):
Can someone please tell me what is a NIMBY?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY


User currently offlineCrj200faguy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3561 times:



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Douchebags that live by the airport yet hate the noise. People who moved in knowing full well that there was an airport and now want to restrict it.

That's the best definition I have ever seen.  Smile


User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3442 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I have the same problem at the loft complex I live in ... we're right next to the CSX railroad.

It's quite clear there are trains next door. LOTS of trains. Very often during the day. And night.

Yet, people move in, then start bitching about "why did they have to build that railroad right next to the building" ?

Realize ... we're talking about the train tracks the Great Locomotive Chase occurred on.

During the Civil War.

- litz


User currently offlineFFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3435 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
If B6 opened ATL today, it would be from JFK, and the west coast experience isn't really relevant.

Still not a chance!!! They tried and failed miserably! Don't think for one minute in today's economic climate JetBlue would be foolish again to try ATL. No way!


User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3377 times:



Quoting Hamfist (Thread starter):
Seems like that could give carriers such as JetBlue or Southwest some access to the Atlanta area?

Both airlines have ample opportunity and access to ATL. They don;t want to take on the Delta/AirTran machine there is my guess.

Also, let's not forget that Lockheed uses Dobbins to build the C-130J's and the F/A-22's.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3344 times:



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Douchebags that live by the airport yet hate the noise. People who moved in knowing full well that there was an airport and now want to restrict it.

Well, or people that lived by an airport, a military airport, with few movements a day, that now hear it might be "a second airport serving Atlanta".

Let's keep 'Douchbag' comments for those who moved next to ATL, and want to restrict flights - not those who moved to the suburbs with no knowledge or expectation of scheduled airline flights in/out of their local military field.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

RE: NIMBYs. This is Cobb County we are talking about. All you have to do is pay off the Cobb Commissioner (considering the building and deforestation that has occurred in the 20 years I've lived here), $25 more or less should do the trick, and it's a done deal. The reality is that we need a second, major airport, but it cannot function independently and there is no easy link between Dobbins and Hartsfield. Roads are jam packed already, there is no real bus service to speak of, and trains carry freight, but not in that direction. The drive alone, without any traffic (which does happen occasionally) is a minimum of 45 minutes, and that would not include pickup and parking. From a distance standpoint, LGA to JFK or even EWR is a short hop compared to what would happen here. Put in maglev between Dobbins-Hartsfield-BHM and you would have one amazing transport route. But not in my lifetime, I'm afraid.


"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

I think I mentioned Dobbins as a potential civil-military joint use facility as far back as 1999. Somebody could look it up I guess.

Your typical 737-700 or similar is a whole lot quieter than the C5s or even C130s that the airport neightbors are accustomed to.

If the federal government owns the airfield (and even if they allow the Georgia Air National Guard to occupy and use the facillity my guess is the feds will retain title to the facility, at least for some time) then it really doesn't matter whether or not DL wants another airport or the neighbors are concerned about noise.

The federal govt has a way of getting what it wants, by hook, crook, or eminent domain.

I don't know I buy the 'conflicting with Hartsfield' argument, as the two fields are 20 miles apart. The following cities seem to have multiple airports in close proximity to one another without perpetual mid air collisions:

From To Initial
Heading Distance
OAK (37°43'17"N 122°13'15"W) SFO (37°37'08"N 122°22'30"W) 230° (SW) 11 mi
DFW (32°53'49"N 97°02'17"W) DAL (32°50'50"N 96°51'06"W) 107° (E) 11 mi
IAH (29°59'04"N 95°20'29"W) HOU (29°38'44"N 95°16'44"W) 170° (S) 24 mi
LAX (33°56'33"N 118°24'26"W) LGB (33°49'04"N 118°09'06"W) 120° (SE) 17 mi
LGB (33°49'04"N 118°09'06"W) SNA (33°40'32"N 117°52'06"W) 120° (SE) 19 mi
LGA (40°46'38"N 73°52'21"W) JFK (40°38'23"N 73°46'44"W) 152° (SE) 11 mi
LGA (40°46'38"N 73°52'21"W) EWR (40°41'33"N 74°10'07"W) 249° (W) 17 mi

You can build an airport so big and so combersome that it is impossible for anyone on the ground to use it....or to want to. When it takes longer to land at Atlanta, taxi in, wait for a gate, get your bag, ride the bus to the rent car storage lot, and leave than it did to fly from Dallas to Atlanta, something is wrong. When you have to leave for the Atlanta airport so early for your flight that it would have been faster to drive to Birmingham or Nashville and catch the plane there, something is wrong. That's why Atlanta needs a second airport. Not because Hartsfield can't be expanded, but because it has been expanded so often and by so much that it is painful to fly in or out of there.

New York does well with 3+ airports. El Lay does well with even more, if you count LAX BUR ONT LGB SNA. Chicago has two. Dallas has two. Houston has two. Washington DC has 3 if you count both Dulles & BWI. The Miami area has at least two (MIA, FLL) maybe 3 (PBI). It's not as if God inscribed on stone tablets for Moses to carry down off the mountain that Atlanta shalt have but one commercial airport.

And sometimes, it is all about money. With Dobbins (MGE)...the land is already there. The runways are definitely there. Nice, long and wide runways. You have really good highway infrastructure supporting the area. All you'd really need to do is build a terminal, parking garage, and some feeder roads. Chump change compared to the thought of just finding a place in the metro area where you could put a 10,000' runway.

MGE (Dobbins) is what they'd do if the politicians in charge of Atlanta were smart. Alas, you can say a lot of things about a lot of politicians but being smart is seldom one of them.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

NIMBYS aside (and they're a special breed here where it comes to airports) the city has purchased land north of I-285 as well as tracts south. If a new airport is to be used, it'll probably be in the northern property. The only other idea that made sense was to use Macon and build/use an existing rail line for transport to and from the airports (the distance between being roughly twice the the distance between LHR and LGW) to make it feasible. That idea keeps getting hit with the high speed rail line when a standard one would work and cost much less. Anyway.

Quoting Litz (Reply 9):
Yet, people move in, then start bitching about "why did they have to build that railroad right next to the building"

Realize ... we're talking about the train tracks the Great Locomotive Chase occurred on.

I made exactly that point to someone the other day. They were complaining about whoever put the train that cut across Sandy Plains in such a silly place. I told them that the train was there well before we were.
Then I had to explain to this uneducated Yankee about the Great Locomotive Chase.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 12):
Well, or people that lived by an airport, a military airport, with few movements a day, that now hear it might be "a second airport serving Atlanta".

All of the airports have serious traffic. Dobbins until recently was home to an entire MAW including two squadrons of jet fighters....on top of Air Force and Lockheed traffic. And DOJ airlines, plus the Army Guard components. It's always been fairly busy, and it's been the NAS since 1957 or so. The apartments into which the A-7 crashed were built after they moved the NAS from PDK to Marietta (then more out in the country).

PDK has it's own whining brigade, and they're real douchebags. They moved in next to one of the busiest general aviation airports in the country (usually in the top 10 occasionally over the years the busiest) and the second busiest airport in the state. It's been a noisy place since Sgt York did his training there in WWI, which was the last time dairy cows were at peace there, and they still have an active group of whiners who complain if an airplane needs to land after 10pm or before 6am. Incredible.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 12):
Let's keep 'Douchbag' comments for those who moved next to ATL, and want to restrict flights - not those who moved to the suburbs with no knowledge or expectation of scheduled airline flights in/out of their local military field.

See above.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23308 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3154 times:



Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 10):
Don't think for one minute in today's economic climate JetBlue would be foolish again to try ATL. No way!

B6 certainly flies to ORD... why is ATL any different?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3139 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3):
MGE was originally designed to be a civil airport and in fact had been named Rickenbacker Field in honor of Eastern Air Lines' President,, who had agreed to serve the airport. WWII put the brakes on that as the field was taken over by the War Department.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):

B6 certainly flies to ORD... why is ATL any different?

B6 is a very different animal from when it started its two little flights out West those years back. The traffic between ATL and JFK on Delta is really not that heavy. All of their flights are pretty much timed for their international departure banks. Think about it though, I don't see them picking up too much domestic traffic...I mean hell, who wants to fly into JFK if they don't have to? (i'm not a NY'er though...). I'll say though, I can see them turning a profit if they offered enough flights and timed them right. Again, they will be relying on O/D.



What gets measured gets done.
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