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CO's Early Out A Lot Worse Than UA!  
User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9154 times:

At least UA is offering some $$ to their employee's, CO gives us: NOTHING!
CO to offer limited Early Out Plan to co-workers

CO is offering a limited Early Out Plan for all CO U.S.-based employees (not including Puerto Rico) with adjusted service dates of Sept. 4, 1998, or earlier. Additional eligibility and participation criteria are contained in the Early Out Plan document.

Employees must remain active until their last date of work, as determined by the company, which generally will be no later than Sept. 4, 2008 and must agree to resign permanently from the company in order to accept these benefits.

Participants in the Early Out Plan will receive unlimited SA5A travel passes for use on CO, CO Express, or CO Micronesia for the employee, a spouse or registered domestic partner, and eligible dependents continuing to Sept. 4, 2023. (Parents and travel companions are not included.) Participants in the Early Out Plan will also receive the same level of healthcare coverage, including dental and vision, that they currently have for 12 months after the effective date of their resignation. This continuation of coverage will be available at the subsidized, active employee rate for the first 12 months. After the first 12 months, rates will be available at the unsubsidized COBRA rates for the final six months. If the participants wish to continue medical, dental and/or vision, coverage they will need to elect it. Shortly after the effective date of their Early Out, the participant will receive an Enrollment Worksheet from the Benefits Center that confirms the options. Participants must call the Benefits Center to make the election to continue current coverage at active rates for 12 months followed by six months at regular COBRA rates. The participant may elect to continue participation in the Health Care Flexible Spending account for the remainder of 2008.

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9034 times:

Still looks better than a furlough notice.....

User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8984 times:

Total misconception on your part. None of the people that qualify for the early out are even close to being part of the furlough. If CO was even remotely looking out for it's employees, they would offer something closer to DL's early retirement. In addition to this 'early out' they are offering leaves for FA's for 4, 5 and 9 months.

User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8945 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 2):
If CO was even remotely looking out for it's employees,

CAL is trying to remain in business for the long haul. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few...Get a clue.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8888 times:



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 3):

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 2):
If CO was even remotely looking out for it's employees,

CAL is trying to remain in business for the long haul. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few...Get a clue.

how convenient that you truncated the quote to leave out the most significant part.

let me copy it for you.

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 2):
If CO was even remotely looking out for it's employees, they would offer something closer to DL's early retirement.

so, is DL just crazy to be offering what they are offering (severance payments and life-time passes to early retirees along with insurance benefits) or is CO maybe alot worse off than some people here want to admit - and thus they don't have the money that DL has.

either way, once again, it is apparent that DL is treating its employees better than other carrriers - and these employees under this offer are ALL non-union. Now why do you suppose DL would offer industry leading EARLY OUT benefits to its non-union employees?


User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8890 times:

As a long term employee for over 22 years, I have seen the good and the bad at CO. If they are really looking out for their employees, as they claim, it would be very easy for CO to offer leaves to all employees, even the ones with 1 year on the job, or offer early retirement packages to long term employees, offer some $$, like most companies do. For the long run it would be more cost effective for CO to offer someone like me a early out (I am at the top of my pay scale) and keep an employee that is at their 1st year of pay. Trust me I make about 3.5 -4 times more an hour than a first year employee. I fully understand that the airlines need to make cuts. But there are good ways of doing it and bad ways of doing it. This offer is an insult to the employees of CO.

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8799 times:
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Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 5):
If they are really looking out for their employees, as they claim, it would be very easy for CO to offer leaves to all employees, even the ones with 1 year on the job, or offer early retirement packages to long term employees, offer some $$, like most companies do. For the long run it would be more cost effective for CO to offer someone like me a early out (I am at the top of my pay scale) and keep an employee that is at their 1st year of pay.

It sounds like they're doing what makes the most economic sense, which is to offer voluntary early-out packages to more senior, higher-paid employees who might wish to try and find their happiness elsewhere. As you've said, there's no point in offering an early-out to someone junior whose pay and benefits are less burdensome to the company.

Their actions are consistent with truly looking out for a way to provide continued job security to the most employees possible, especially when you consider that a senior employee who elects to take the voluntary early-out might actually be saving the jobs of multiple junior employees, as their combined pay/benefits package is likely equal to that of the one senior person who voluntarily leaves.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8790 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
it is apparent that DL is treating its employees better than other carrriers - and these employees under this offer are ALL non-union. Now why do you suppose DL would offer industry leading EARLY OUT benefits to its non-union employees?

And you know that b/c you work for them?? Delta is trying to survive, like the other airlines. I can assure you employee welfare may be a concern, but it is not a priority.

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 5):
If they are really looking out for their employees, as they claim, it would be very easy for CO to offer leaves to all employees, even the ones with 1 year on the job, or offer early retirement packages to long term employees, offer some $$, like most companies do.

Right. Let's see. The company is losing money at $238/min at current fuel prices, and you want them to buy you out? Good luck on that.

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 5):
This offer is an insult to the employees of CO.

I guess you'll have to be insulted....what do you propose?


User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8704 times:

It would make more economic sense for CO to have 10 F/A work a flight (ultra long haul flights) at $23 p/h than 10 F/A at $51.00 per hour. At DCA airport where the average employee has been employed over 20 years, it would make more sense to have more employees with an average time of employment of 2 -3 years.
The employees at CO would be better served with an early out that is open to all employees regardless of date of hire, or offer leaves to all employees, with minimal benefits, like flight passes ( they are empty seats), let them pay a service charge (like they do now if they have been with the company for less than 10 years). That would be better than they offer now, and really won't cost them anything


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8689 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 8):
It would make more economic sense for CO to have 10 F/A work a flight (ultra long haul flights) at $23 p/h than 10 F/A at $51.00 per hour. At DCA airport where the average employee has been employed over 20 years, it would make more sense to have more employees with an average time of employment of 2 -3 years.
The employees at CO would be better served with an early out that is open to all employees regardless of date of hire, or offer leaves to all employees, with minimal benefits, like flight passes ( they are empty seats), let them pay a service charge (like they do now if they have been with the company for less than 10 years). That would be better than they offer now, and really won't cost them anything

And every CAL employee agrees with you?


User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 896 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8678 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 5):
This offer is an insult to the employees of CO.

Then don't accept it and stop whining. Oil closed at $131/ barrel today.


User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8642 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 5):
As a long term employee for over 22 years, I have seen the good and the bad at CO. If they are really looking out for their employees, as they claim, it would be very easy for CO to offer leaves to all employees, even the ones with 1 year on the job, or offer early retirement packages to long term employees, offer some $$, like most companies do. For the long run it would be more cost effective for CO to offer someone like me a early out (I am at the top of my pay scale) and keep an employee that is at their 1st year of pay. Trust me I make about 3.5 -4 times more an hour than a first year employee. I fully understand that the airlines need to make cuts. But there are good ways of doing it and bad ways of doing it. This offer is an insult to the employees of CO.

you sound so bitter... Have you always been this way towards your employer? Probably CO is not the place for you to be?


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8588 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 8):
That would be better than they offer now, and really won't cost them anything

Have you told Kellner?
You've got it figured out!!!


User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8587 times:



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 9):
And every CAL employee agrees with you?

never said that. All I am saying is if the company is really serious about cutting cost, offer an early retirement package that is worth taking. Why lay off people, if you can offer leaves to all employees? Why restrict it?
If you furlough employees, you are going to have to recall them at a later date, in order to hire new employees. Offer leaves, and you cost cost down the road, by not having to train people for scratch. A refresher course to people who were on a leave, is cheaper that hire new people who need full training.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 10):

Then don't accept it and stop whining.

Wow, it seems that you have something against people speaking their mind. Very narrow minded. It seems that some people on here don't like any negative feedback in regards of Continental.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8573 times:
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Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 8):
The employees at CO would be better served with an early out that is open to all employees regardless of date of hire, or offer leaves to all employees, with minimal benefits, like flight passes ( they are empty seats), let them pay a service charge (like they do now if they have been with the company for less than 10 years). That would be better than they offer now, and really won't cost them anything

 redflag 

For lack of a better term, the "problem" is that senior employees cost a lot more in wages and benefits than junior employees do. Consequently, any voluntary early-out program needs to be attractive enough that senior employees will consider taking it. This means added cost - but you can justify it because you're then getting some senior employees (and their high costs) off the books.

In other words, at some point those added costs of an early-out pay for themselves.  bigthumbsup 

However, offering that same sort of attractive (and costly) early-out package to junior employees is financially irresponsible.

The only way your proposal would work is if junior employees were offered a different, far less-attractive early-out package than the senior employees.

But then again - as cruel as it may sound - the "early out" for junior employees already exists, and is called a furlough.

Of course the idea is to avoid furloughs entirely by enticing many senior employees to take the voluntary early-out. This will ultimately result in increased job security for all remaining CO employees.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8538 times:

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 13):
Why lay off people, if you can offer leaves to all employees?

Are you kidding? Furloughing people is free to CAL, leaves cost $$$...
Big difference!

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 13):
Wow, it seems that you have something against people speaking their mind. Very narrow minded. It seems that some people on here don't like any negative feedback in regards of Continental.

The worst thing is people that think they know it all, and don't... You really don't know what is best for CAL, that is apparent.

Hopefully only a few will lose their jobs...

[Edited 2008-06-10 21:47:45]

User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 896 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8503 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 13):
Wow, it seems that you have something against people speaking their mind. Very narrow minded. It seems that some people on here don't like any negative feedback in regards of Continental.

I do have great respect for Continental the company. And I don't have a problem with "people speaking their mind" - it's a free country. But I do take issues with the pilot's union insisting they get their "loan" back when the price of oil is destroying the airline industry.

First, there was never a "loan" and the pilots aren't entitled to make a certain amount of money. It'll probably be a quarter past never when the CO pilots make the same amounts they did in the go-go late 90s when the industry was in the best shape its ever been in. I think it's sad that the union has convinced some of its more gullible members otherwise. To complain about all the money you should be getting to voluntarily opt out is rather outrageous considering several of your fellow union members will simply be losing their jobs. So yes, it pisses me off to see people complaining about everything they're entitled to as other pilots are being laid off.

Speak your mind at will - just don't expect me to agree with you all the time.


User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8478 times:



Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 11):
you sound so bitter... Have you always been this way towards your employer? Probably CO is not the place for you to be?

I enjoy my job at CO. Have enjoyed it for over 22 years, and many more to come. That doesn't mean that I can not voice my opinion, if the company does something that I do not agree with.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):
The only way your proposal would work is if junior employees were offered a different, far less-attractive early-out package than the senior employees.

Totally agree with you.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 15):
You really don't know what is best for CAL, that is apparent.

And you do? Again there is (and should nothing) be wrong with an employee to voice their concerns about their employer, if they don't agree with their actions.
With todays email to employees, it seems that they, in my opinion, are not looking out for their employees as they have stated in earlies emails.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8446 times:

HEL-LO...

If even a few folks accept this... then CO has made yet another EXCELLENT business decision... it's called testing the market. However, if the number of employees that accept this offer doesn't meet Continental's target... and I guarantee you management has thoroughly run the numbers and has projections as to how many people will... then you'll see another, richer offer down the road. But why offer the farm right off the bat if you don't need to? (think about it, Delta crackhead). If anyone accepts this, then the "market" (employees in this case) value the offer and it was the right and prudent offer to make at this time.

Dutchflyboi: So you're insulted. Great. No prob. Don't take it. You're probably not the segment management is targeting.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8439 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 16):
But I do take issues with the pilot's union insisting they get their "loan" back when the price of oil is destroying the airline industry.

First, there was never a "loan" and the pilots aren't entitled to make a certain amount of money. It'll probably be a quarter past never when the CO pilots make the same amounts they did in the go-go late 90s when the industry was in the best shape its ever been in. I think it's sad that the union has convinced some of its more gullible members otherwise. To complain about all the money you should be getting to voluntarily opt out is rather outrageous considering several of your fellow union members will simply be losing their jobs. So yes, it pisses me off to see people complaining about everything they're entitled to as other pilots are being laid off.

Not a pilot here. So I don't know what you are talking about. F/A here. Also not talking here about the Unions at CO. Personally I do not like the IAM that represents us, but I (for now) am stuck with it.
Also I am not saying at all that I am entitled to anything at all. All I am saying is that this so called early out is not really an early out. I can 'retire' from CO at any time. As a F/A we have the 20/40 option ( minimum 20 years of service and at least 40 years old), i can get my 'lifetime' passes and so on. Offer leaves to all employees, because in time, you will need to people back and it would be cheaper to retrain (or give refresher courses) those people that start from scratch.  Smile


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8404 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 17):
Have enjoyed it for over 22 years, and many more to come.

No, you want a buyout:

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 17):
And you do?

Maybe, maybe not. You seemed to be want something that is best for some employees, but not CAL as a company. I am not on the board at CAL, nor an exec, and neither are you. Opinions are great, and free, but the reality is that you may not know all of the specifics of running a major airline...

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 17):
Again there is (and should nothing) be wrong with an employee to voice their concerns about their employer, if they don't agree with their actions

One of the best things the military teaches is that, if you want to complain, offer a solution. You have, but I don't thing you get the big pic.

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 17):
With todays email to employees, it seems that they, in my opinion, are not looking out for their employees as they have stated in earlies emails.

And from your experience, you have seen the airlines "look out" for employees?

Send Kellner an offer...maybe he'll take it!


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8307 times:
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Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 17):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):
The only way your proposal would work is if junior employees were offered a different, far less-attractive early-out package than the senior employees.


Totally agree with you.

But again, keep in mind that even a far less attractive early-out package aimed at junior employees still costs money, and if that problem is solved for free by furloughs....

Well, you get the point. Odds are it won't happen because there's really no financial reason for it to happen.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineCALRAMPER From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8251 times:

Dutchflyboi,
Not quite sure where you got the details of the CO early out package. I am a CO ramper and me and my coworkers are still waiting for the details of the early out to be released to us. I do think that Co will be more generous in their early out offer than what you shared just now, but I guess tht e will just have to wait and see  Smile



ETOPS-Engines Turn or People Swim
User currently offlineJetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8233 times:

Be grateful that your employer is still in business. I am really tired of people expecting struggling employers to give them cash handouts


Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlineSac From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 98 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7945 times:



Quoting CALRAMPER (Reply 22):
Dutchflyboi,
Not quite sure where you got the details of the CO early out package. I am a CO ramper and me and my coworkers are still waiting for the details of the early out to be released to us. I do think that Co will be more generous in their early out offer than what you shared just now, but I guess tht e will just have to wait and see

It was anounced in the DNU on June 10


25 Burkhard : For me this signals that CO is not so eager to get rid of as many as the others do. A few will take this opportunity. So I see this as at least a self
26 UnitedSuperDC8 : United has to date only offered a limited early out program to a max. of 600 flight attendants with at least 15 years of service and the age of 45. Ab
27 Christao17 : Maybe I'm just missing something here, but other than the fact that it would be an end to your employment, what in particular is so bad about this off
28 B737900ER : It's not that it's a bad offer. It's just that there is not any incentive for someone to take it who is not in a position to be laid off. Very few at
29 Ikramerica : Without a link, how do we know this is ALL they are offering. There is no mention of the other retirement benefits, only health care for 12 months and
30 Slider : What Dutchflyboi’s “outrage” fails to consider is that early-out programs are successful not because of the payoff or the benefits or the tangi
31 Davidlc3 : Amen
32 Ewr767 : The early out package is not complete yet. I repeat, it is not complete yet, everyone calm down for christ sake. The only thing that has been confirme
33 Dutchflyboi : It's been posted on the intranet site, they have offered much better early out programs before in the past, even when the company was doing worse tha
34 Ikramerica : mmm, cola. What's COLA?
35 Dutchflyboi : Company Offered Leave of Absence
36 Ikramerica : Well, if they are requiring you to officially retire, it's hardly a leave of absence.
37 Sac : So the package I got in the mail today from Continental titled "Summer 2008 Early Out Program" is not complete.
38 TWFirst : Is that a question or a (sarcastic) statement?
39 Post contains links United1 : I'm going to take a wild guess and say both. Reading this Q&A (#5) it doesn't sound like cash payments are generally expected to be part of the packa
40 Lambert747 : Here we are over 30 posts later and it has all come down to the fact that the topic was started without all of the information in tact. It has been s
41 Dutchflyboi : F/A's can take a 4, 5 or 9 month COLA instead of the early out program. I am sure that a lot of other employee groups like that option instead of bei
42 Sac : I'll let you guess.
43 Post contains links KarlB737 : To bad they didn't hear your statement first. Courtesy: Associated Press Continental Pilots Picket For Higher Pay, Benefits http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/0
44 CALMSP : sadly..........with this early out package.....it would be hard to imagine many would jump on it. Which, in turn, means more employees will have to be
45 FreequentFlier : I love this line from the downtown picketing: "Don't try to use the price of gas," said Prater. "The industry is unstable, and the only way to add lab
46 Ikramerica : Or they'll revise it? "Don't let reality get in the way of our fantasy."
47 Ludavid777 : Well with furlough you have recall rights, so is not exactly termination... besides if you furlough, when you need the people back you just call them
48 CALMSP : yes, furlough will be for the agents, pilots, FA's & mechanics. For all others, its termination.
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