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DL Wants To Somehow Extend Range Of 777 LR.  
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3108 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22103 times:

I don't know if anyone posted this yet, but here it goes. I know DL wants to fly to Australia(they would be the only US carrier at this time to fly to all inhabitied continents) I was reading on wikipedia(sorry, but It can be useful) and I came across this link.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...eze-more-range-from-777-200lr.html

The max. range of the 777 LR is 9,450 nm and the max payload range is 7,500 nmi.

ATL/JFK-SYD is about 8500 nm.

How could they tweak the engines? Add extra fuel supply and cut down on pax count?

Is LAX-SYD crowded enough that they have to fly from ATL/JFK-SYD? (ATL is there major hub, so its understandable)

Would they rather fly from JFK or ATL?

Comments are welcome as usual!


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327 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFrequentflykid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22088 times:

ATL-SYD is 9,285 mi
JFK-SYD is 9,950 mi


User currently offlineVivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22094 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
The max. range of the 777 LR is 9,450 nm and the max payload range is 7,500 nmi.
ATL/JFK-SYD is about 8500 nm.
How could they tweak the engines? Add extra fuel supply and cut down on pax count?

They can add auxillary fuel tanks to the aircraft. This will reduce cargo carrying capacity, but will increase the range.

Air India has added auxillary fuel tanks to its latest 777LRs (VT-ALD onwards, I think)

What remains to be seen is, whether the operation will be profitable for the long term (reducing cargo vs increasing the range)

- Vivek


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7377 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22058 times:

Of all the a/c presently available, the B-777LR is capable of doing the most for DL to destinations downunder in terms of number of pax carried and baggage and cargo, it cannot do the flight at the max pax capacity and payload, that much is known by everyone. DL now joins the list of carriers clamouring for more performance from the a/c, I really don't think Boeing is going to jump over hoops right now, especially since DL is a fairley small user in terms of number of frames of the a/c. Remember, Qantas was involved in the design specs of the original B-777 and never ordered any, and they have certainely along with EK been making noise about getting more performance from the a/c, so far, no OEM has stepped up to the plate to design or upgrade any a/c in their inventory with the capability being requested, time will tell if DL has the magic Boeing or Airbus wand.

User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22028 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 3):
Of all the a/c presently available, the B-777LR is capable of doing the most for DL to destinations downunder in terms of number of pax carried and baggage and cargo, it cannot do the flight at the max pax capacity and payload, that much is known by everyone. DL now joins the list of carriers clamouring for more performance from the a/c, I really don't think Boeing is going to jump over hoops right now, especially since DL is a fairley small user in terms of number of frames of the a/c. Remember, Qantas was involved in the design specs of the original B-777 and never ordered any, and they have certainely along with EK been making noise about getting more performance from the a/c, so far, no OEM has stepped up to the plate to design or upgrade any a/c in their inventory with the capability being requested, time will tell if DL has the magic Boeing or Airbus wand.

You are 100% wrong with this comment.

First off Qantas even though they did not order any 777, They do have around 65-75 787s on order.

Secondly, Delta buy far could be the only airline other then Continental & American who could demand Boeing to produce this type of plane and Boeing will have no regrets evaluating it. Delta flies around 300-400 Boeing planes. I believe this is a valuable customer.

Plus, They are about to become the world's largest airline.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3922 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21940 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 4):
Plus, They are about to become the world's largest airline.

and become the worlds largest user of the A330! Makes them a pretty important Airbus customer too. (the poor old A340 is going to feel very out in the cold at the new DL, pretty much everyone else is at the party!).

Seriously though, I don't think Boeing can get that sort of improvement out of the 777 without going down the NG route, making massive changes to the aircraft. With the supposed threat the A350 offers to the 777 I thin Boeing might take a more conservative approach here. I think for these types of missions the airlines will have to wait for the 787 and/or A350, otherwise take the payload hit, if the routes are that attractive.....

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21896 times:



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 5):
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 4):
Plus, They are about to become the world's largest airline.

and become the worlds largest user of the A330! Makes them a pretty important Airbus customer too. (the poor old A340 is going to feel very out in the cold at the new DL, pretty much everyone else is at the party!).

Seriously though, I don't think Boeing can get that sort of improvement out of the 777 without going down the NG route, making massive changes to the aircraft. With the supposed threat the A350 offers to the 777 I thin Boeing might take a more conservative approach here. I think for these types of missions the airlines will have to wait for the 787 and/or A350, otherwise take the payload hit, if the routes are that attractive.....

I am sorry but at 32 A330 Northwest is the largest user of A330 in the world? And what A340 are you talking about Northwest does not have any. I thought Northwest was a launch customer for the Boeing 787, I believe it was 18 Orders 50 Options?

Also, Boeing owned around 6-7% of Delta up until around 8-9 Months ago. I am very very sorry to say. Airbus will be flying in Delta colors but we do not know for how long.

The world's biggest airline will be all Boeing by the Five years anniversary to the day of merge


User currently offlinePlanefxr From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21745 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 6):
The world's biggest airline will be all Boeing by the Five years anniversary to the day of merge

And what do you presume they are going to replace 120 plus A-319' and A-320's with? The last A-330 was delivered in Oct. 07 and CASM beats the 767 hands down, that is according to R. Anderson. Don't get me wrong, I love Boeing. The game has changed and DL will no longer be exclusive to Boeing, and like any well run company they will look at all options and make a decision based on what is better in terms of price and mission capabilities now and for in the future. Too much is being made out of Boeing's financing during BK and the "all Boeing" gentlemens agreement, that was three CEO's ago.


User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21714 times:



Quoting Planefxr (Reply 7):

And what do you presume they are going to replace 120 plus A-319' and A-320's with? The last A-330 was delivered in Oct. 07 and CASM beats the 767 hands down, that is according to R. Anderson. Don't get me wrong, I love Boeing. The game has changed and DL will no longer be exclusive to Boeing, and like any well run company they will look at all options and make a decision based on what is better in terms of price and mission capabilities now and for in the future. Too much is being made out of Boeing's financing during BK and the "all Boeing" gentlemens agreement, that was three CEO's ago.

We all know that hopefully when the 787 finally arrives, Delta will convert the 50 Options Northwest currently holds, Which will make Delta own 68 787s and then we will probably see another order for around 75 787s.

In the economy of high Oil prices the carriers need to be cost effective and the main way to be cost effective is to have a competitive product.

Most likely Delta will keep the A32X until Boeing comes out with a brand new product.


User currently offlineEnginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21679 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 6):
And what A340 are you talking about Northwest does not have any

I think that's precisely what he wants to say: they have (almost) every type but A340s.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 6):
The world's biggest airline will be all Boeing by the Five years anniversary to the day of merge

Could be. But if so it is for purely ideological reasons and definitely not because all Boeing planes in all size brackets are more economical than all the planes of the competing manufacturers.


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21627 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
The max. range of the 777 LR is 9,450 nm and the max payload range is 7,500 nmi.

ATL/JFK-SYD is about 8500 nm.



Quoting Frequentflykid (Reply 1):

ATL-SYD is 9,285 mi
JFK-SYD is 9,950 mi

ATL-SYD 8068 nm / 9285 mi
JFK-SYD 8646 nm / 9950 mi



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21577 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 6):
The world's biggest airline will be all Boeing by the Five years anniversary to the day of merge

Maybe... if they survive in a deathly environment with the extra burden of a merger that will cost billions before it starts to save milllions...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31097 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21492 times:
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Well if DL is determined to fly non-stop from JFK/ATL to SYD, the 77L is the only option now and likely in the future. The A350-900R is going to have to trade payload volume/weight for fuel weight/volume so even though it's fuel burn will be higher, it's payload/weight will (almost assuredly) be lower.

And with ULR demand so marginal, DL might not find sufficient payload weight/volume demand to fill even a payload weight/volume-restricted 77L or A359R. Yet even the hypothetical 787-8LR, able to dedicate up to an additional 40t of MTOW growth purely to fuel weight, needs additional fuel volume to hold it. And with only 28 LD3 positions to work with, you could probably fly a full load of passengers between any two points on the planet, but you'll have to dedicate almost the entirety of your hold space to their baggage, so those passengers will need to be charged fares that not only covers the full cost of carrying them, but also generates a profit, since there will be precious little revenue cargo carried.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21402 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 4):
You are 100% wrong with this comment.

Par13del (Reply 3) being 100% wrong - surely this would be a record, if it were true. Difficult to see that somehow. Esp as there are some items that ARE correct.

Not 100% correct, now there is possibility!  angel 


User currently offlineMeta From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21395 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 6):
I am sorry but at 32 A330 Northwest is the largest user of A330 in the world?

Yes, its the largest operator in the world. You can check this out http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/3626643


User currently offlineParapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21352 times:

The gap in performance between where we are now with the 777lr and where it would need to be (with as quoted full payload) is enormous (remember you are carrying/burning fuel to lift fuel). The guy said it ,so I guess he believes that what he is saying is possible -but franky it seems miles off (no pun) at present.

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21292 times:



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 8):
Most likely Delta will keep the A32X until Boeing comes out with a brand new product.

And what makes you so sure Delta will not choose Airbus when it comes out with a brand new product?



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineThe Coachman From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21263 times:

I think JFK787NYC, you have some comprehension problems.

Par13del didn't say anything that wasn't true. Par didn't mention the 787 but somehow you made out an interpretation of his post that simply wasn't there. Par merely said that QF didn't order the 777.

And the bit about the A340...what were you thinking..?



M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8420 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21235 times:
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What would be the result of a 777-200LR with the GE90-115 engines of the 773ER ? Could the range be extended enough for east coast to SYD. What is the distance of Emirates Dubai to LAX or SFO flights ?

User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3694 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21184 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 3):
really don't think Boeing is going to jump over hoops right now, especially since DL is a fairley small user in terms of number of frames of the a/c.

If Boeing is going to jump through hoops for anyone in regard to the 777LR, it would be DL. DL is the single largest customer for the LR at the moment, and more orders will probably be forthcoming.



PHX based
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21158 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 18):
What is the distance of Emirates Dubai to LAX or SFO flights ?

Emirates B777-200LR have freight hold fuel tanks fitted.


User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20997 times:



Quoting Enginebird (Reply 9):
The world's biggest airline will be all Boeing by the Five years anniversary to the day of merge

That would be very surprising as where do you propose Delta finding the manufacturing slots that would be needed? And then where do you propose finding the financing for an already highly leveraged firm?

Delta will fly the Airbus' until their normal out of service dates. The question is what will replace them?


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 21000 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
The max. range of the 777 LR is 9,450 nm and the max payload range is 7,500 nmi.



Quoting Vivekman2006 (Reply 2):
Air India has added auxillary fuel tanks to its latest 777LRs (VT-ALD onwards, I think)

BOM-JFK is about 6,800 nm, well within the max. payload range.

I wonder what routes AI is evaluating given its decision to add auxiliary fuel tanks. Some possibilities:
BOM-ORD about 7,000 nm
DEL-LAX about 7,000 nm
BOM-LAX about 7,600 nm
BLR-SFO about 7,600 nm

The first two routes are doable without auxiliary tanks; the last two routes could use auxiliary tanks.

I am surprised AI has no serious plans to start BOM-ORD. It could easily substitute 773ER on the DEL-JFK route, and use the 772LRs on BOM-ORD. BOM-ORD has great O&D potential, and it is also a major UA hub.


User currently offlineEnginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20863 times:



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 21):
Quoting Enginebird (Reply 9):
The world's biggest airline will be all Boeing by the Five years anniversary to the day of merge

That would be very surprising as where do you propose Delta finding the manufacturing slots that would be needed? And then where do you propose finding the financing for an already highly leveraged firm?

You are quoting a quote in my post. I never said that Delta will go all Boeing.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10511 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20850 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):

And with ULR demand so marginal, DL might not find sufficient payload weight/volume demand to fill even a payload weight/volume-restricted 77L or A359R. Yet even the hypothetical 787-8LR, able to dedicate up to an additional 40t of MTOW growth purely to fuel weight, needs additional fuel volume to hold it. And with only 28 LD3 positions to work with, you could probably fly a full load of passengers between any two points on the planet, but you'll have to dedicate almost the entirety of your hold space to their baggage, so those passengers will need to be charged fares that not only covers the full cost of carrying them, but also generates a profit, since there will be precious little revenue cargo carried.

Not necessarily. Depending on how many pax we're talking about, at 2 bags per person, that's about 500 bags. At about 40 bags per container, that's roughly about half your containers, not counting using the bulk bin. When I worked at ORD, we filled up the 747 to MIA with cargo and put all the bags for a full ship in the bulk bin.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 KrisYYZ : Which variant of the GE 90 engine did DL choose for their B77Ls? The -110B or 115B? KrisYYZ
26 CODC10 : Just over 300 Boeing ships. How can you make this conclusion? This would require Delta to replace approximately 300 non-Boeing airplanes, and this do
27 DocLightning : Right. They're going to dump about 200 aircraft just because they don't like the way the noses look or something. Look, if Airbus was that bad, they
28 PGNCS : Really? We all KNOW this will happen? Maybe you should reveal your sources, as this SEEMS like utter speculation from a 787 fan.
29 AirNZ : Can I ask what on earth you're actually talking about as to why the comment, in your opinion, is 100% wrong. Firstly, what on earth does QF having 65
30 DeltaL1011man : both. I can see a 77L doing JFK-ATL-SYD just because JFK-SYD would need alot more range CX has 31 with 9 orders 110Bs I think DL has like 60 Options
31 MD-90 : Haha, that's a good way to put it. People, do you guys not remember C.E. Woolman's historic relationship with Douglas? Delta wasn't won over and didn
32 Mayor : One thing, tho. Delta got 727-95's and -295's from NE before they received any that they ordered. I lived it. How about ordering the 747. That was DL
33 MD-90 : How could I have completely forgotten about the 747? You're absolutely right, the first Boeing Delta ever ordered themselves was the 747, which they o
34 DeltaL1011man : This is very true...............Now Delta is doing what Mr. Woolman would have done......Buy Boeing who bought Douglas.
35 PGNCS : Doc is right on the money. Delta in the future will buy whatever planes are best for Delta whether they come from Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, or elsewhe
36 DeltaL1011man : What does this have to do with DL asking Boeing for more range out of the 77L to fly ATL/JFK-SYD? I also think that DL will get into the LAX-SYD mark
37 Litz : The question is not how many Boeing aircraft Delta currently flies ... it's how many aircraft will be nearing retirement in the near future ... with
38 Lambert747 : 18 Hours? 19 Hours? It is a mixed market JFK is the business rich O/D, that is aided by a strong tourist market. Atlanta would be more of leisure rel
39 DeltaL1011man : none...... all the 757s will wait till Y1 and the 767s still have 10 good years in them and are getting winglets ,lie-flats and the new Y seats. It i
40 Jacobin777 : Not a "supposed" threat..the threat is real... ...that's ambiguous at best....a lot of it depends on the route...the A332 is a bigger plane. I'm sure
41 Lambert747 : It is a matter of time. Once the merger progresses we I am more than sure are going to see an expansion of the Los Angeles operation for Delta Air Li
42 Jfk777 : The 77L would have an easier time making such a long flight from ATL then JFK, so it may not be what is a better origination point but the last few hu
43 Post contains links FFlyerWorld : Oh yeah? You may want to rethink your opinion with facts... http://www.trade.gov/td/industry/otea/australia/Oz-GA.pdf
44 MD-90 : If Boeing wouldn't/couldn't do it for Qantas to fly the prestigious Kangaroo route, then they probably won't/can't do it for Delta. The thread starte
45 Par13del : Thank you for that my friend. I'll stick to the topic at hand and let the experts work out the a/c replacement. I do not know if any studies have bee
46 AirNZ : Correct, and you're point being what?
47 SeaBosDca : This is a pipe dream. Even with a more capable 77L, DL or anyone else won't be able to carry cargo and yet will burn a ton of precious fuel just lifti
48 Jfk777 : FFLyerWorld, My statement isn't about which city, Atlanta or New York, has more economic ties its about which flight is shorter. I concede Atlanta ha
49 OyKIE : According to the article Delta wants more range at max payload so they could reach Austalia from both their east coast hubs. how much do Boeing need t
50 OzGlobal : Sounds like a religious credo. Brave words regarding a company that is fighting for its survival.
51 DeltaL1011man : Ok and BA,DL,AA wont get early 787s slots. DL wont get early 777 slots. Boeing will do anything DL ask for. Delta is one of there largest customer. W
52 FFlyerWorld : Jfk777 Not sure why you replied to me ?? I quoted Lambert 747 in reply 38 regarding his incorrect opinion that there was very little if any business
53 FFlyerWorld : Fighting for its survival?????? A bit dramatic don't you think? There are a number of legacy and LCC carriers other than Delta that are in much more
54 Brilondon : This is not DL's choice fo aircraft. With the merger they would have a sizable flet of 787's and thus would beable to make the routes work. To the li
55 Jetlanta : Spot on. The U.S.-Australia market has actually been artificially limited by the lack of a non-west coast gateway. There are 200M+ people on the U.S.
56 Post contains links Lambert747 : I am not rethinking anything. You are talking exports which equals cargo. You may be able to few a few bins, you are not going to fill paid Business
57 Lambert747 : Please see above post #56 Even with connections there are US destinations and US cities that are among the top 5 most visited by Australians. Atlanta
58 FFlyerWorld : Again, your comment is above. You made a blank statement by saying and I quote above "There are few, very few if any business ties between the Southe
59 FFlyerWorld : And on what airline are those aboard Quantas who are not terminating their travels in ATL going to fly? On whom? Quantas is NOT a member of SkyTeam a
60 FFlyerWorld : Now, back to the post and an end to those who have blinders on... Expect Delta to do what they need to do to begin service to parts of the world diffi
61 Lambert747 : I am not sure if I can buy this argument. With the addition of more services from South America to Australia, I fail to see how a person in GRU would
62 LAXdude1023 : Ok, lets talk geography. Ill start with Europe. We can use LHR as an example. SYD-ATL-LHR- 13,495 miles SYD-HKG-LHR- 10,575 miles Thats an additional
63 LAXdude1023 : Haha, you bet me to it!
64 Lambert747 : I guess it is true Californians think alike.. Great to run into you here on this topic..[Edited 2008-06-11 12:38:15]
65 FFlyerWorld : You can make reference to all the geography you wish to but the bottom line is that if Delta wants to do ATL/JFK to SYD or for that matter - anywhere
66 FFlyerWorld : Funny, I always thought you Californians had an open mind!!! LOL[Edited 2008-06-11 12:40:22]
67 Lambert747 : I would reference the recent growth of Emirates, and Etihad Airways
68 FFlyerWorld : You seem to have all the stats and facts... why not do a comparison on International growth over the last 3 years between Emirates, Ethiad and Delta?
69 Post contains links Lambert747 : We do.. and thinking that Delta may attempt a flight to Sydney from Atlanta is using that open mind to the furthest of its extent! Not hard to find..
70 B752OS : Very well said. The notion that ATL could be used as a connecting point from South America is flat out crazy and makes no sense, along with Europe.
71 LAXdude1023 : Haha, we are, but we also dont run with quite as much emotion as you guys seem to out east! In LA we dont have a hometown airline, just a bunch of fo
72 Lambert747 : The domestic airlines they have all have a very good presence, the bulk of them operate LAX as a hub or Focus City for the demand in the market. What
73 SeaBosDca : I doubt Delta will buy 30 more 77Ls (I think 16 77Ls/77Ws combined is more realistic). If it does, it would buy all but a tiny handful of those wheth
74 DeltaL1011man : I would say DL has them beat. Which is why us in the great state of Georgia (ok not that great really but our football team is about to be National C
75 KC135TopBoom : DL will only talk to Airbus to get better pricing from Boeing. The GE-90-115 engines are an option now on the B-777-200LR. The "basic" engine is the
76 Jacobin777 : When a hypothetical carrier goes from one international flight to five international flights the following year, well, that's a staggering 500% growt
77 B752OS : See posts 58 and 60.
78 AirNZ : Yes, I could probably agree with you. However, if that's the case why did you include me in your criticism? I have made no post or comment in any way
79 Jacobin777 : I was being sardonic...
80 Warren747sp : How did Qantas manage to make a few LHR-SYD non-stop flights in the old days before cancealing it.?
81 MPDPilot : I just wanted to chime in here. There is a lot of talk about DL not having the demand to operate a ATL-SYD route. a couple of arguments come out: out
82 DTWAGENT : Ok. Lets not yell at me. But, per my friend at NK. He said the Boeing aircraft where better in terms of mechanical. It was easier to fix the aircraft
83 777STL : Sure, but a 4+ hour backtrack(west coast-ATL) to connect to a 16+ hour flight is a bit extreme , don't you think? And a Europe-US-OZ connection is a
84 LAXdude1023 : Were not talking about an additional hour or two. Going through ATL is an addtion 6 hours of flying on a carrier, that while they are a decent carrie
85 Gemuser : NOBODY has EVER operated a commerical airline service non stop between LHR & SYD. QF did do a one off delivery flight to deliver their first B744 to
86 Kaitak744 : That is a bit misleading in terms of aviation. If someone is going from Australia to Anaheim, then will go to LAX. So, it should be: 1/LAX 47% 2/JFK
87 LAXdude1023 : I dont quite understand the %'s. They add up to be more than 100%.
88 Warren747sp : Thanks a lot for something which I am always curious about.
89 Delta763 : Surprised nobody has mentioned that anyone who knows anything about recent American security and immigration policies would be crazy to want to trans
90 FlyingCrown : DL may just be able to pull off a sizeable increase in range, if they can shave a few pounds. In the 707 days when turbojets ruled and efficiencies we
91 Planefxr : It certainly is, that style of management is what set DL up for BK to begin with. Thankfully they did not take delivery on 134 of those. It is not am
92 Jetlanta : My friend, I understand the point you are trying to make. You simply don't seem to understand the nature of airline networks and hubs. The ATL local
93 Brons2 : Wow I'll never get that 15 minutes of my life back. ATL-SYD defies logic. Never happen on the 77L. And the comments about Europeans backtracking to AT
94 RwSEA : They can barely make China work, and we've seen on the chart about that China is a much more important trading partner in Georgia than is Australia.
95 Brons2 : LAX is easier for pretty much everyone west of Atlanta. AA has quite a few non-stops to LAX that allow seamless connections onto QF.
96 LAXdude1023 : And you need thousands of flights to connect to one single flight? I think not. Its not about the number of flights so much as haveing a couple of fl
97 DeltaL1011man : Oh, I'm sorry for putting you in there. Not sure why I did. Again sorry I'm sorry but the CEO that saved Delta's ass would disagree. Anderson has sai
98 777STL : Unless you have data that proves otherwise, I doubt O&D will run around 20%. Highly doubt. I don't think they will. DL can make obscure routes work b
99 Planefxr : The CEO that saved Delta's backside is not the CEO that agreed to buy all Boeing. If you are refering to Grinstein, he was on the board but not the C
100 Planefxr : I know what Anderson has said, I have heard him speak. That means DL will buy a/c that make sense for the company now and for in the future. Limiting
101 Lambert747 : Source for this information? Nice plug for Delta Air Lines, it doesn't mean much if the connections are from markets with little if any demand on a d
102 LAXdude1023 : 20%? I highly doubt it. Absolutely. Its absurd.
103 MAH4546 : 70% of American don't even have a passport and 80% of Americans probably can't even afford to vacation in Australia. The market is limited by geograp
104 NwaLAS : I think they should configure the airplane to be able to use a " SKY HOOK". NWALAS
105 Jetlanta : Ugh...China will work. Asking for some temporary, seasonal frequency reductions during a time of record fuel prices during the route's 1st year is NO
106 MAH4546 : Alaska Airlines has daily, non-stop service between LAX and DCA and they are mileage partners with Qantas, allowing easy connections between Sydney a
107 Jetlanta : And Delta would need just over 200 people a day. The math still works. Listen, I've said very clearly twice now that don't know if the economics will
108 Lambert747 : Say what you wish. Until American Airlines, United Airlines, or Northwest Airlines asks to reduce frequencies to Shanghai, Delta is the odd man out.
109 MAH4546 : Where have I ever said that? I couldn't care less if Delta starts Atlanta-Sydney, but the reasons you try to claim it will work are rather ridiculous
110 Jetlanta : Best Legal Connection Out of DCA (7/08 OAG skds) AS5 DCA LAX 0915 1200 QF12 LAX SYD 2230 0800 10:30 connection Best Legal Connection Out of SYD QF11
111 Post contains images Lambert747 : Thanks for the late evening humor..       Great to see you on here, you know a lot about the industry.. Try looking at IAD, like every other busi
112 MAH4546 : Too bad vacationers don't purchase tickets based on how easy the connection is. Nor do they do it based on the fact that they might have to change te
113 Jetlanta : Dude, it was a route case. They were making a case to win approval from the DOT. Get over it. Does any of that preclude ATL-SYD from working? Are you
114 RwSEA : Yet the top 4 US-markets to Australia (LAX, SFO, LAS, JFK) all have connections through LAX, if not their own nonstop service (SFO). Yes there aren't
115 Jetlanta : They look at IAD and JFK today because the HAVE to. LGA and DCA offer much poorer alternatives. Still, most prefer LGA and DCA for convenience reason
116 MAH4546 : We'll agree to disagree, because I don't agree that any of that will occur. Will fares go down? Maybe, but we aren't talking about New York-Florida h
117 Jetlanta : Yet couldn't you say the same thing about all of Europe through JFK and all of Asia though SFO? It is arrogance to assume that there isn't some level
118 Lambert747 : MAH4546 is not dead wrong. He is correct in saying that a flight to Atlanta is not going to solve the cost and the problem that most of the traffic f
119 Jetlanta : You are assuming it will continue to do so. Here is an example of why you can't do that... One of Australia's largest corporations is GM Holden, the
120 Jetlanta : Yet Delta isn't "most foreign airlines" is it? Delta has quite successfully flown ATL-LON, ATL-NRT and ATL-GRU for years, despite the small local mar
121 Lambert747 : I am sure that is going to stop all of those people from going to Australia. Heaven forbid someone in Macon has to double connect to get to Australia
122 MAH4546 : It exists, I doubt it is "significant." Having worked in the auto industry, I can tell you that Holden - like many Australian subsidiaries of corpora
123 Tullamarine : By never doing it!!! No plane can do it economically. Realistically the market for ULR flights is declining. The price of oil means the economics of
124 Tayser : I acknowledge that ATL is Delta's über-hub and I also acknowledge that it's a mid-range city in the US... however. It is so far off the radar in term
125 USAirALB : I think they could get ties with Virgin Blue, since they already have ties with Virgin Atlantic. I believe it would work, but not right know, and P.S
126 777STL : Yeah, except airfare to OZ from the US is ~$1500 on average for Y. A family of four is looking at $6k in airfare alone just to get there. Nevermind t
127 Mayor : BTW, those "buddys" (sp) are headquartered in Chicago, now.
128 B752OS : Yes, DL has a HUGE hub in ATL and without the hub, ATL would not see nearly the amount of International ops it does and the international network sur
129 LAXdude1023 : 2/3 of the US market isnt on the East Coast. California by itself makes up over half the demand from the US to Australia. Nevada takes up another chu
130 Jacobin777 : DL might switch some planes because the market warrants it...but that has nothing to do with the fact the B763 is more efficient than the A332 on man
131 Post contains images Jetlanta : OK, how about some facts boys? Here they are. I'll be happy to decipher them for you if you don't understand. All the data here is ONE WAY. The rankin
132 DeltaL1011man : I am referring to Gerry. When he was there he order 8 77Ls, 10 73Gs and was going to order 125 787s. Didn't even give the A350XWB a true look that sa
133 LAXdude1023 : Thanks for post that Jetlanta. I do have a question. What exactly is PDEW?
134 Jetlanta : My pleasure. PDEW is Passengers Daily Each Way. That should be self-explanatory. Let me know if it is not.
135 LAXdude1023 : Well, I might have to consult the dictionary, but I think I can figure it out eventually. I guess we can now figure out an approximate O&D off an ATL
136 Lambert747 : To start the list states "Likely to be Competitive via ATL" Salt Lake City to Atlanta and then back West to Australia How is that "Likely to be Compe
137 FFlyerWorld : Jetlanta - Awesome information posted! Some of these folks on here still won't believe in the incredible capabilities and possibilities that exist wit
138 LAXdude1023 : Given the current O&D numbers ATL-SYD would hardly be 10%. If its lucky they might get 12% O&D if they start the flight. No way in hell will it be 20%
139 Jetlanta : Dude, seriously, I'm done with you. I've provided the most significant FACTUAL data available, along with the analysis of someone who has been in the
140 Jetlanta : Again, i said a little more or a little less. I didn't have the exact data in front of me when I made the point. However, 20% is not atypical for ATL
141 Mir : But why would you go to JFK to get on QF when you'd have to stop in LAX anyway? It's much easier if you're in the western US to just go to LAX or SFO
142 PlanesNTrains : Dream on. Which won't occur for almost a decade. And that's just first delivery. I think the bigger point is, Delta is just a name. The people behind
143 Lambert747 : There still is no link that has been provided to prove any of what you have said. I am not following you with how I am "in over my head". We have bee
144 B752OS : Jetlanta, that chart is great. Where were you able to find the data from? Most of those cities, or at least a great portion, already are served via LA
145 SeaBosDca : There's just one problem with your ATL-SYD advocacy... ...your own numbers, and the locations of many of your "competitive" markets, suggest that aft
146 Jetlanta : It is proprietary adjusted MIDT data, thats about all I wanna say publicly. AA's connecting service thru LAX is limited and interline. But I'm not sa
147 LAXdude1023 : No 20% isnt atypical, but SYD isnt a typical market from ATL.
148 DeltaL1011man : dude give me a break They would have to get it to 9,700nm thats 200nm its not like will have to make a new plane.
149 SeaBosDca : Extending the range by 250 nm won't change the problem here: that there's not enough revenue (no cargo, questionable yield on the passengers) for wha
150 RwSEA : Ok, interesting data. Let's disect it a little further. 66% - the % of passengers for whom ATL isn't an option (based on your assumptions of who will
151 Jetlanta : How do you know? Is DXB? Is JNB? Is SVO? Is ICN? What is typical? Why is SYD so different than the vast majority of new international markets flown f
152 LAXdude1023 : SYD is a highly unbalanced market. By that I mean that the overwhelming majority of the demand is West of the Mississippi (Save NYC). Those markets a
153 Lambert747 : It is 7700 nm from SEA-SYD, not 9700 nm You are forgetting that Seattle has the O/D that Atlanta does not to Sydney. Also you seem to forget the code
154 Mir : From what I've heard, Airbus systems are much more logically laid out than Boeing systems, and so are easier to work with. Cost of parts might be a p
155 SeaBosDca : Actually 6725 nm. By comparison: ATL-SYD = 8068 nm DTW-SYD = 8225 nm JFK-SYD = 8646 nm All three of the eastern markets are solidly in crazy ULH terr
156 Lambert747 : My blunder for using Great Circle Mapper I would have said that up until a few years ago when Air Canada announced nonstop service to Vancouver, and
157 Jetlanta : The problem with your assumptions is that they are not very good. I'm not going to deal with them all, but by way of example, you are way off on MSP.
158 DeltaL1011man : Yet the DL FFs will fly via ATL. Lets note that DL is #2 at JFK.........there are alot of DL JFK FFs. I was talking about what would be needed to mak
159 Jetlanta : The market is unbalanced because the fares to the West Coast are significantly lower due to network connectivity and capacity. Natural demand to/from
160 Post contains images Lambert747 : There has always been demand between the two. Take a look at the histories of the airlines past to current day. I am not sure if you are referring to
161 Jacobin777 : With V.Australia coming on to the scene soon, it will make it all the more difficult for DL to get a "foothold" into the market. This route is dominat
162 SeaBosDca : No, just a rule that you don't start flights that are bat$#!+ crazy from an economic perspective. SEA-SYD is perfectly realistic, although I think it
163 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I think for the flight to be economical it would need to be a ATL-SLC-SYD (if the runway is made longer) or ATL-LAX-SYD. This would really help with w
164 Jetlanta : I've demonstrated that eastern U.S. O&D's generate nearly $1.4B in annual revenue, at an average fare nearly $1800 higher round trip than the vaunted
165 Planefxr : There is no hard evidence that DL was going to order 125 787's other than Whitehurst comment at last years Paris Airshow. If it was true, great I thi
166 Tayser : Thank you, I was trying to point this out earlier.
167 Post contains links Lambert747 : There has been zero evidence put forward to support the claim that the average fare to the East Coast is $1800 more than that to the West Coast. Sour
168 Tullamarine : From an Australian point of view can I just say that ATL is not on the radar at all. It maybe a lovely city but unfortunately the only exposure most A
169 Rwy04LGA : As I've said before...all J class, every other day service, SYD-JFK Poor rampers! By lowballing! It's ( the future order) so obvious. Maybe at first
170 Panamair : Given your hyperbole, please explain how UA even remotely fills one seat on its daily 744 from LAX to SYD or from SFO to SYD. Once again, how has UA
171 Lambert747 : Thank You.. Thank You.. Thank You.. I cannot tell you how good it is to have the Australian side of things chime in and add a voice of reason. I was
172 LAXdude1023 : But even if you throw a nonstop flight to the East, I dont think demand will double which seems to be what youre suggesting. Im not saying demand won
173 Panamair : I was referring specifically to his assertion that no one who flies NYC-SYD will want to connect in ATL when they have QF's one-stop JFK-LAX-SYD serv
174 LAXdude1023 : Point taken.
175 Ikramerica : Your table has some good info, but it illustrates that DL would be much better off running the flight via LAX as I suggested in the other threads abo
176 Lambert747 : When did I say no one would fly JFK-ATL-SYD? I was referring to the fact that the Australian traffic bound to the USA is much more likely to fly on Q
177 Ikramerica : The J hard product on the 77L for DL is better than the vast majority of the QF fleet in J. The soft product, I don't know. I wasn't blown away by QF'
178 Lambert747 : Thank You.. It is always good to see a different point of view. We all have our preferred airlines, I am happy to see you enjoy Delta Air Lines.
179 Rwy04LGA : Could they do all J-class using only one plane every other day nonstop SYD-JFK? How many J class seats could they fit? Would it be very much lighter t
180 Ikramerica : Well, my guess is you have never flown in the new J on the 77L. I have not either. But I have flown on DL and QF, and I really think people are overe
181 Lambert747 : I have flown on the near exact same product that Air Canada uses on the same equipment. I have flown QANTAS most recently at the end of April LAX-SYD
182 Jfk777 : Why should east coast to Sydney be any less viable then east coast to South Africa. DL has used its 777 fleet on many 12-16 hour flights to Dubai and
183 Jacobin777 : UA does have their share of loyal followers thanks in part to having a very strong presence in the Bay Area and LAX...neither of which DL can claim..
184 DeltaL1011man : I guess that you know more than Delta does right? Yea the CEO and COO (yes Gerry AND Jim said it) saying we will order 125 787s before the end of the
185 DeltaL1011man : I also forgot to quote one of Gerrys best quotes. "We could buy the A350.....But why?" Sounds like someone would only buy Boeing.
186 TristarCrazy : You may change your mind after flying in the QF A380 with the 70ish puke green interior. 12 plus hours looking at that would make me air sick... I go
187 Panamair : Please follow the discussion. Nowhere was I or others (until post 175) talking about DL flying LAX-SYD. Just as you say that UA have their share of l
188 Panamair : You're not addressing my point - you said that once someone flies on QF, they won't ever want to take anything else (be it UA or DL): Delta is/will b
189 Jacobin777 : Actually it was 170. How many pax from the southeast need to fly to SYD? Not too many...as I've been incessantly stating, LAX/SFO/LAS/JFK take >85%-9
190 SeaBosDca : Hey, if they know something I don't, then they can prove me wrong. But the math of an ATL-SYD flight just doesn't work. Average ticket price probably
191 Panamair : No. Re-read it again. LAX-SYD and SFO-SYD were used as they are what UA flies; most of the rebuttal in 170 was about how American carriers cannot be
192 Jacobin777 : Oh..ok, I see. It was a bit ambiguous to me, but I'm glad you cleared it up.. At least we agree on something. While those stats are nice to look at,
193 LAXdude1023 : Jfk777, weve been through this several times. Its less viable because of geography and local market. ATL-South Africa has a decent local market, ATL-
194 Baroque : I wonder how many of the Honolulu were folk just trying to go to Canada who were trapped in an awful fate at that stop?
195 Jetlanta : Actually you couldn't be more wrong. See post 131. ATL average fares are double what LAX fares are to Australia. ATL-South Africa is a decent local m
196 LAXdude1023 : ATL had more of a market to South Africa before hand than it does to Australia now. Im now doubting that when you add service a market can grow, what
197 MAH4546 : Hardly. The market has always been "decent," even before DL/SA came along. Though decent is all relative, it's still small. Nonetheless, in the 1980s
198 Jetlanta : Care to share some number with me? Or do you get a pass also? I love how I am the only one on this entire thread who has provided actual factual data
199 LAXdude1023 : With due respect Jetlanta, the data you posted didnt really support the claims that you made before hand, particularly the one about ATL-SYD being ab
200 Ikramerica : Yep, which is why I think if DL starts it, it will have to be from LAX. The fuel economics just work better on a 77L with 14 hour stage length vs. 18
201 Jetlanta : So, you might be surprised to learn that even now, after years of direct service to South Africa, the ATL-JNB + ATL-CPT markets supported 37.6 PDEW c
202 LAXdude1023 : That is definately something you cant prove.
203 MAH4546 : I disagree. Yes, so? That shows how its a small market, but still decent for what kind of market it is. Atlanta is very well positioned for South Afr
204 Jetlanta : Well, u can't prove I'm wrong either. Frankly, its a very conservative estimate...based on my professional experience.
205 Jetlanta : But they think in terms of elapsed times and lowest fares. ATL has neither when it comes to SA.
206 MAH4546 : That is entirely anecdotal. Some times they will have the lowest fare and the shortest elapsed time, some times they won't. There are very limited op
207 MD-90 : Too bad it wasn't more reliable. And the world's largest fleet of L-1011s was just...what? You know, if I was one of the 81 Chicagoites on your list,
208 SeaBosDca : Which is it? Also, fares on the ATL-SYD leg would have to be lower than they are now, or all those people you expect to connect from all over the cou
209 Post contains images SoBe : I don't think anyone has mentioned this but it did occur to me that there may be routing issues. Following the Great Circle ATL-SYD goes right through
210 Jetlanta : You aren't paying attention. Fares from ATL to Australia are basically double what they are from LAX today. If Delta were to start this service, they
211 FlyPNS1 : Your numbers are very interesting though your average fare analysis is a bit distorted. First, given that people on the East have to travel almost 2,
212 Jetlanta : Thats great for you. But people will. In the Chicago-South Africa market in 2007, there were 31.5 total PDEW. The most logical routing for Chicago an
213 Jetlanta : All good points. I didn't include the smaller western markets because I was making the assumption they would not use ATL and the list was just enormo
214 Tayser : broken record broken record broken record broken record broken record broken record jetlanta: you're forgetting about traffic going TO the US, and gua
215 Jetlanta : No I'm not my friend. Everybody says the same thing before they get ATL service. Nobody ever heard of ATL in Europe, nobody ever heard of it in Asia,
216 OldAeroGuy : Recent FAA rule changes have made 330 min. ETOPS diversion times available. The 772LR can be provisioned to comply with these rules.
217 The Coachman : There is some rather delusional analysis going on here all based on the premise that DL could profitably fill a 77L, not whether it could fill a 77L b
218 SoBe : Good to know. Thanks.
219 MD-90 : At least Atlanta is on the way to South Africa! It sure as hell isn't on the way to Australia. I fly Delta because I'm a Southerner (and AirTran only
220 Mayor : Well, that's a crock. Besides the Tristars and the 747's, DL had the largest fleet of 727's in the industry and 33 737-200's. Matter of fact, by the
221 Jetlanta : ATL is NOT on the way to South Africa from ORD! That is a huge misconception. Check your globe.
222 Jetlanta : I'll give you that. I'm not trying to make the case that the route will work. And I absolutely agree that QF service to DFW would be a huge problem f
223 Rwy04LGA : See below. Conversly, Americans will fly DL to earn THEIR points. DL will steal pax from both QF and UA with brand new planes that will have all the
224 LAXdude1023 : Australia and South Africa arent the same thing. You are ignoring one HUGE fact. This flight is going to be super expensive to operate and DL will ha
225 Jetlanta : No, but consumers behave similarly when given similar options. How am I ignoring that? How many times have I said that I'm not sure it can make money
226 LAXdude1023 : Even with lower fuel prices, it would still be pricey to operate.
227 Jacobin777 :
228 Jetlanta : Agreed. But, why does this burden apply only to Delta? Are people who live in NYC walking to LAX to pick up their flight to SYD? Because in the end,
229 DeltaL1011man : That would be pretty cool. Ok You guys are right DL just asked Boeing for more range to fly ATL-SYD just to see what a.net would say about it. Did yo
230 777STL : Last time I checked, QF has 12 brand new 380s on order and you can bet LAX will see at least two of those on a daily basis, if not more. Not to menti
231 Post contains links Jetlanta : Yeah, and AA's 762's are an even MORE inefficient aircraft. Check this article for some guidance... http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB1213
232 LAXdude1023 : Yeah, AA needs to do something about the 762's and the MD80's. They are going to eat them alive in this fuel market. The one thing is that flights fr
233 Ikramerica : You need to check again. They have 20 on order, and they will not be flying SYD-LAX right away. First is MEL-LAX, then the Kangaroo route from SYD. T
234 Ikramerica : And when Boeing says no, we are discussing plan "B" which is, in my mind, better than plan "A" anyway.
235 Jetlanta : You still get off the airplane though. Not much of a difference.[Edited 2008-06-13 12:02:51]
236 Jacobin777 : AA is shedding a lot of those MadDogs..so that should help. Unfortunately something does need to be done about those B762's....I wonder if adding "wi
237 Post contains images MD-90 : Masculine pride. Huge misconception? Oh geez, it's 280 miles farther via ATL than via IAD. That's a whopping 3.7% difference. You want us to believe
238 Jetlanta : I'm not complaining. I'm making the point that they do it in spite of being "out of the way". And ATL is even is further "out of the way" versus JFK
239 Mayor : The point I was trying to make was that DL was NOT a Douglas company until Boeing bought them. Even if you don't count the 747's and Tristars, DL sta
240 Lambert747 : How on Earth is Atlanta "out of the way" for a person travelling from Chicago to Johannesburg? Just about every Globe I look at shows Atlanta en rout
241 Mayor : DL started interchange service with PanAm, using DL a/c, to London and Paris, in 1964. When did KLM and BCAL introduce their service to Europe from A
242 Post contains links Lambert747 : As per Delta their own branded service didnt start until 1978 http://www.delta.com/about_delta/cor...ts/delta_through_decades/index.jsp As I have sai
243 Ocracoke : I've flown QANTAS. I've also flown South African. And truth be told, from the US East coast, I'd rather fly JFK-JNB-Australia on South African. It mi
244 Mayor : The interchange went MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR/Paris. Source: Delta, The History of an Airline by W. David Lewis and Wesley Phillips Newton, copyright 1979, Un
245 Jacobin777 : That doesn't mean their not old... Their B762 fleet are 20+ years old on average...way above the average of rest of their fleet.
246 Lambert747 : There was nothing groundbreaking there. As Atlanta to Washington DC, and Atlanta to New Orleans were already flown. It was not the first nonstop ATL-
247 SeaBosDca : The cost of QF's JFK tag is not really relevant to this discussion, as -- if they chose to do so -- they could easily put their JFK pax into AA 3-cla
248 Lambert747 : Fully agree with the assertion. At the same time the MD-80's share and are in the same boat. In the interim I believe it was mentioned that American
249 Post contains images Lambert747 : It was Delta Air Lines itself... Go figure! Thanks in advance for a trip down memory lane   I digress as a play on words.. In any case, my reference
250 Mayor : I didn't say it was the first non-stop, just that it "introduced" ATL to European service. Wasn't that what you said, "introduced ATL to Europe"?
251 Mayor : I know that....still sketchy. BTW, you're welcome.
252 Jacobin777 : The problem with the B752's are they don't offer a "true" first class (or "truer" first class) than the B762's do. This is where the problem is. AA's
253 Lambert747 : Exactly, so with that being said what is going to be the Delta Air Lines advantge outside of being just another airline in the very competitive US-Au
254 AirNZ : I admit that I've laughed the whole way through this thread but okay, if you insist (see below): Are you expecting us to now believe that suddenly DL
255 777STL : Ok, fine, let's split hairs. Thank you for that astute observation Capt. Obvious, but I never said they will be flying SYD-LAX right away. It seems l
256 Ikramerica : Yep and sometimes, you don't go on the same airplane. There are times when you connect to a different QF 744 while the one from NYC ends up going to
257 Tayser : 500,000 international passengers going through Sydney are originating in/going to Melbourne per annum - that's enough to fill 3 to 4 747s every day.
258 Jacobin777 : Beats me..I have no clue either...
259 Tayser : How is the Australia-US market 'very competitive' when there are only two carriers flying it? Answer: it's not. Competitive is having the likes of Qan
260 The Coachman : You talk to the average Joe Blow in the street here, and unless they've been to the USA, DL is not the first airline they'd think of. Get ready to cop
261 DeltaL1011man : Yea Boeing wont Help one of (if not) largest customers to get 200nm needed to make it work. 5 and when they where used for the ORY and LHR flights th
262 Lambert747 : Just like the username.. DeltaL1011man
263 Ocracoke : Duh. Maybe that has to do with the fact that all the non-stop flights between the USA and Australia touch down on American soil on the West coast?? "
264 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : If this route starts, DL will have their hands full trying to make it work. I wont say they cant, but even if fuel were less expensive it would be di
265 Lambert747 : Can anyone in the forum verify the what dates the flight SAA ran JFK-JNB nonstop with the 747-400? Read posts 123, 124, 168, 260 they are from the Au
266 Jacobin777 : I will..they can't...
267 Lambert747 : Agreed.. again! It is so very true. I cannot tell you, and I am not trying to be overly "cliche", how many Australians arrive at LAX with surfboards,
268 Ocracoke : Well then, if that is true, people from north of Perth would only want to visit the mines of Colorado and Montana. Travelers from south of Perth woul
269 LAXdude1023 : Im not against it. Im just pointing out some obsticles that might be if any flight (be it ATL or DFW) east of California to SYD happens. Im also just
270 Tullamarine : What makes you think the QF744 flies from JFK-LAX half full? QF operates LAX as a virtual hub and when the SYD bound 744 arrives from JFK, pax transf
271 Ocracoke : The fact that I took that plane on that route is not good enough for you? You need proof from someone else? Good attempt at spin. 1) Two of your four
272 Mir : Having 400 737s would be cheaper, yes. Getting those 250 extra 737s? Not so much. DL has, in NW's Airbus fleet, a much more fuel efficient replacment
273 Aviationbuff08 : Just a wild idea, but why not just install an inflight refueling probe like military aircraft have. It would make solve the range issue of ANY aircra
274 LAXdude1023 : The number of passengers that backtrack from California to ATL-NRT is so small that its almost not even worth mentioning. Not to mention ATL-NRT pull
275 777STL : The post I originally quoted made it out as if QF is flying 30 year old rust buckets while DL is flying brand new 77LRs to OZ. That's simply not true
276 Jetlanta : If they chose to put the paxs on AA, they also chose to give a pro-rated portion of the revenue to AA. If Delta keep them on DL the entire way, Delta
277 Lambert747 : It has been said and posted time and time again by Jetlanta, you have fueled his argument as well by making blanket statements such as "DL will have
278 MD-90 : I bet they wouldn't like the humidity of Atlanta in the summer. That'll teach me to post facts without looking them up first and verifying my memory.
279 Mayor : 737-200's weren't ordered until the mid 80's. DL had DC-9-14's and DC-9-32's. As stated before, DL had an interchange agreement with PanAm, starting
280 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : what can I say. Really look at your facts again please. DL had flight to both ORY and LHR. MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR/ORY. DC-8s and 741s. interchange with PA.
281 Ikramerica : I'm talking about onboard product, not age of aircraft. Sure the QF A380 fleet will always be 1 year younger on average than the DL 77L fleet (big wh
282 LAXdude1023 : I flew DFW-LAX a couple of weeks ago and the guy that I sat next to was coming from NRT. He got stuck through DFW because he missed the nonstop fligh
283 Viscount724 : The interchange flights were legally PA flights. They only used DL aircraft but DL themselves had no rights to operate those routes at the time.
284 WorldTraveler : posts like this always turn into a match between those who think a route cannot work and those who believe it can. there are many people here who have
285 Lambert747 : Those same naysayers are waiting for the Boeing 767's to fly from LAX to Korea, Japan, and the Northern Provinces in China. Time will tell, that is t
286 LAXdude1023 : DING DING DING! We have a winner. Even the most ardent DL supporters have said that it wont work given the fuel cost and the economy. When fuel price
287 Mayor : The original point of this was that DL was introduced to Europe, via these flights. Otherwise, except for the revenue, what's the point of the interc
288 WorldTraveler : DL hasn't announced anything, first of all. International route planning takes years. At this point all DL has said is that they want Boeing to exten
289 LAXdude1023 : You skirted the issue. Ive been on here for 2 years and lot of people have come on here and mentioned that DL would be flying LAX-Asia within a year.
290 Jfk777 : Why would any one buy a ticket on a Delta 767 to Japan, Korea or China when there so many more attractive options with 777, 747 and A340's. If it cou
291 Mir : That assumes that the reduction in fuel prices is not brought on by an economic crash that brings DL and many other airlines down along with it. -Mir
292 Viscount724 : It was one way to use DL's 747-100s for a while until they wisely sold them. They were too big for economic operations on DL's domestic routes at the
293 The Coachman : Do you think the person who regularly flies between LAX and some secondary city is going to really mind which aircraft it is? Kit the 763 out with so
294 Jacobin777 : Which A.netters, which routes? How is ATL not decently located as a North America- global hub? It has a lot of N.American-Asia/South America, Middle
295 Post contains links Mir : Some might. Some business travellers avoided NW's DC-10s. And any city in Asia that can support non-stop service to the US is not a secondary city. P
296 Tayser : No need to correct you, I'm in agreement with your small survey sample. I have little doubt they can make it work too - it would just be a lot easier
297 MD-90 : Those were Pan Am flights, even though they used Delta planes. Delta didn't have the traffic rights to fly either themselves. At its largest Delta's
298 SeaBosDca : Interesting observation. It makes QF's decision not to order any 777s look even more daft.
299 DeltaL1011man : Which is what I said If that was the case they would just park them. DL owned them and if Delta wanted to they good sit them on the ramp at TechOps a
300 Mayor : This is true and hasn't been denied, however, this side discussion of the DL/PA interchange started like this...... The point is, the passengers don'
301 Bobnwa : [ Delta did not own the 747-100's. They had outstanding loans on all of them. If they had just parked them, they would still have quite large monthly
302 Post contains links LAXDESI : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/230493/ From my thread in technical forum on ULH flight analysis: I will attempt to captur
303 Jacobin777 : Interesting analysis [b]LAXDESI[/i].. ..we dont' know for sure if its $500k..if its say $400 or even $375 then it would make a huge difference. I thin
304 777STL : FWIW, I just booked a ticket on the QF whale jet today, LAX-SYD-LAX, November 19th-26th. So it seems LAX-SYD-LAX will be seeing the 380 from the get
305 Lambert747 : Here is the schedules: Melbourne to Los Angeles QF93, 94 On selected flights from 20 October 2008 - Service departs Monday from 20 October - Service d
306 LAXDESI : Let's go with 8,500 nm as effective distance: Trip fuel for RT will be 91,000 lbs at a cost of $364,000 (91,000 X $4). Capital costs for the RT will
307 WorldTraveler : fuel will never be $70/bbl again. DL and every other carrier knows they have to make do in alot different environment. any airplane can be configured
308 LAXdude1023 : Can I quote you on that if/when youre proven wrong (and you have been times before)? Edit- I just caught the jist of the quote- US CARRIER SERVICE. I
309 Jacobin777 : I think so as well. Also, I still think there are some numbers which I'm not so sure of. $50K positive cash flow would be huge over a 1 year period..
310 777STL : Just like you were right when you said UA would liquidate and then backpedalled on that expert prediction to becoming fish food in a UA-DL combinatio
311 Jacobin777 : Or DL waltzing into LAX and expecting the same results like in ATL/JFK...and that back-peddling stating their reasons for adding 10 million flights a
312 ADent : So why not ATL-HNL-SYD? It is only 3.1% longer and avoids the ETOPs hole in the pacific. It could be a fuel only stop on the flight out from ATL or yo
313 Lambert747 : It would become the economics of the route. You would be doing nothing more than a beach market to beach market service. The choice of Honolulu as an
314 LAXDESI : At today's fuel prices of $135/barrel ($4/gallon Jet fuel), read my post (reply 305). Dropping the fuel prices by about 15% (to $115/barrel) will sav
315 Lambert747 : ATL-SYD is longer than the 8500 nm that you have listed. The actual ATL-SYD distance is an additional 700+ miles, bring ATL-SYD to a distance of 9200
316 Ikramerica : Why do people have such trouble with nm measurements? ATL-SYD is 8070 nm. That's if you overfly Mexico, and doesn't take into account the ETOPS dead z
317 LAXDESI : Are you refering to nautical miles in your comment? My analysis is based on nautical miles. The net Y fares on Expedia for Jul-Aug. period is around
318 Lambert747 : I believe you are referring to me. While you are correct, we all know not every airline can always base on the most direct route for one reason or an
319 Ikramerica : No, you are just one in a long line of people that corrects the nm figures of other people with sm measurements… There is no 9200nm route SYD-ATL,
320 Lambert747 : Got it, thanks for the reply! Interesting you should refer to an example. I was once on a Continental Airlines flight from IAH-GRU, last year to be e
321 Nickofatlanta : That is about the norm - UA and QF always charge in this ball-park. Even V Australia is charging in the region of $10,000 for a round-trip Business C
322 LAXDESI : Then the obvious question is: Why isn't Delta starting ATL-SYD ASAP? Why wait for a longer range 772LR when the existing model can make you tons of m
323 Mayor : I'm not so sure about that, Bob. Seems like during that decade, DL owned, outright, almost all of their a/c. From what source do you get your info? I
324 Rwy04LGA : Please recalculate with an all-J class configuration. Thanks
325 LAXdude1023 : 1) Not enough LR's in the fleet right now to do what DL already has them doing and do ATL-SYD 2) Higher priorites 3) your model uses alot of assuptio
326 LAXDESI : LAXdude1023, There is enough cushion in the numbers I have presented for the route to be profitable with even higher fuel prices. I do realise that AT
327 Bobnwa : Mayor I think that, because no airline in the past has ever owned their aircraft without financing them, With that being said, NWA does own its DC-9'
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