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Frontier Keeps All 70 Aircraft  
User currently offlineSpin25 From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 6 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10631 times:

According to the Denver post Frontier has paid up and kept leases on all 70 airplanes.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_9544950

Although getting DIP financing would be much more significant news, this is definately a good thing. I would gather that if the creditor commitee didn't think that there was a chance this company could make it, they would have elected to pull the plug on renewing leases/mortgages. And the fact they are keeping all 70 instead of downsizing makes me happy.

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10515 times:

I heard through the grapevine though that during the bankruptcy, they could not do any International charters, this is the reason why they quit flying for MLT vacations out of DFW Airport.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25846 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10418 times:

Dont have all the details as to why, however Frontier as part of the Ch11 process has filed notice with the court its intention to reject the carriers charter agreement with MLT Inc as of June 1st.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineB6fll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10313 times:

This is good news for F9. Im glad to hear it. This buys F9 some more time!!!  Smile

User currently offlinePlanePainter From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 56 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10011 times:

Great news! Was this the "big announcement"?

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25459 posts, RR: 86
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9847 times:
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Quoting JayDavis (Reply 1):
I heard through the grapevine though that during the bankruptcy, they could not do any International charters, this is the reason why they quit flying for MLT vacations out of DFW Airport.

I believe (?) they are still flying the Apple Vacations charter MDW-CUN.

I would take the simpler view - that with the cancellation of the Republic contract, Frontier needs most of its aircraft for its own flying.

Quoting Spin25 (Thread starter):
And the fact they are keeping all 70 instead of downsizing makes me happy.

It suggests that Mr. Menke has decided on the level of flying he wants for Fall/Winter.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9336 times:

Good for F9! More power to them! Seems like Mr. Menke is doing what he was hired to do. Keep up the good work, F9!


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9054 times:

Great news!! As I said before if they can hang on for a few more months...they will get a significant boost from UAL's fall cutbacks in DEN.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5514 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8460 times:



Quoting Spin25 (Thread starter):
Although getting DIP financing would be much more significant news,

Is DIP financing essential? Potential, not actual insolvency was the reason for the bankruptcy filing, no? Or are there other reasons?



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineGoDIA From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

So, does this mean they are KEEPING the four planes they were supposed to be selling, i.e. 801FR, 804FR, 909FR and 917FR? Or is the total 70 without counting those four planes?


Military Jet Noise--the Sound of Freedom!
User currently offlinePetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

The four planes are SOLD. These are the 70 remaining aircraft. DIP financing is needed, not today, not tomorrow, but it is needed. I think right now management is holding out for the best deal. As we all know this is a rapidly changing market, no need to rush into anything that you might regret later. United's rapid shrinking is only going to help F9. WN isn't the death knell that it is made out to be for F9. So things while aren't all roses for F9 right now, it could be worse, much worse.


The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4657 times:



Quoting GoDIA (Reply 9):
801FR, 804FR, 909FR and 917FR

I thought all four planes were to be A318's, no A319's..... What gives?  Confused I know Grizz is gone though.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

2 x 318 are gone and 2 x 319 are gone. 10 Q400 are in the fleet.


The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently offlineDODCFR From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4536 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
I thought all four planes were to be A318's, no A319's..... What gives? I know Grizz is gone though.

Not Grizz, he was one of my favorites. Maybe they can dedicate another bird to him.
 Smile


User currently offlineDENplanenut From United States of America, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

I'm hoping they keep N812FR for a while. This plane was named "Benny", like me, and was delivered and registered on my birthday. It just happens that one of my best friends works at Frontier... so I like to think it was named after me and is not just a coincidence.

Happy Flying,

Benny


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7422 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4408 times:



Quoting Spin25 (Thread starter):
According to the Denver post Frontier has paid up and kept leases on all 70 airplanes.

That is a little deceptive. Frontier's leases/mortgages are generally way below market value which is how they made so much money on their recent sales of 4 planes. They would have to be stupid to return a plane where they are paying 80% of market value. They will probably attempt to sell or sub-lease these planes rather than returning them as a result, so it doesn't surprise me they kept all the planes. OK, the A318s were a little surprising!

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
I believe (?) they are still flying the Apple Vacations charter MDW-CUN.

I believe it ended around Christmas last year and was taken over by USA3000 out of ORD.

Quoting Petteri (Reply 10):
United's rapid shrinking is only going to help F9. WN isn't the death knell that it is made out to be for F9.

It's a little ridiculous that people say "United's reduced capacity will really help Frontier", but in the same breath say "Southwest's increased capacity isn't hurting Frontier". People say it because the company wants you to believe it, but you shouldn't. If you do believe it, you can be first in line to provide DIP financing.

The answer is that UA's cuts, if they are in Frontier markets, will help Frontier quite a bit, but Southwest's additions are as much or more damaging. The other thing is that Southwest will add more flights as a result of UA's cuts just to keep up the pressure on F9. Wait and see.

By the way, we now have February data and Lynx isn't looking any better:
DEN-RAP 43% LF
DEN-TUL 50%
DEN-ICT 52%
DEN-OKC 59%
...and so on.


User currently offlinePetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4373 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
The answer is that UA's cuts, if they are in Frontier markets, will help Frontier quite a bit, but Southwest's additions are as much or more damaging.

This is just not true. F9 yields on WN shared routes usually go UP not down, and the load factors are higher.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
By the way, we now have February data and Lynx isn't looking any better:

True, for now the loads are low, but these Lynx markets are almost all new. Also did you take a look at the RASM for Lynx? Not bad. This is a growth area for F9 and the dividends are just starting to payoff.



The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25459 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4346 times:
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Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
I believe it ended around Christmas last year and was taken over by USA3000 out of ORD.

Interesting. Frontier was flying somewhere from MDW for Apple during season (this year), and the only one I know about is MDW-CUN.

 confused 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4233 times:



Quoting Petteri (Reply 12):
2 x 318 are gone and 2 x 319 are gone. 10 Q400 are in the fleet.

Do you know which tail numbers were affected and while you're at it..... source??



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineCatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4130 times:
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Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
DEN-TUL 50%

TUL service ended May 31st, so those Q400's are hopefully being used on a more productive route. I just don't think they could make a dent in UA's loyalty here.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7422 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4074 times:



Quoting Petteri (Reply 16):

This is just not true. F9 yields on WN shared routes usually go UP not down, and the load factors are higher.

I see you didn't really research that comment. There are some that are flat, but most look like this...


Here is DEN-LAS yield from DOT

Date F9 WN
2004 Q2 Yield 0.15
2004 Q3 Yield 0.16
2004 Q4 Yield 0.15
2005 Q1 Yield 0.17
2005 Q2 Yield 0.17 0.19
2005 Q3 Yield 0.17 0.19
2005 Q4 Yield 0.16 0.19
2006 Q1 Yield 0.11 0.10
2006 Q2 Yield 0.12 0.11
2006 Q3 Yield 0.11 0.11
2006 Q4 Yield 0.13 0.11
2007 Q1 Yield 0.12 0.11
2007 Q2 Yield 0.13 0.12
2007 Q3 Yield 0.13 0.11

Here is DEN-MCI

Date F9 WN
2005 Q3 Yield 0.26
2005 Q4 Yield 0.25
2006 Q1 Yield 0.23
2006 Q2 Yield 0.20
2006 Q3 Yield 0.17 0.11
2006 Q4 Yield 0.14 0.13
2007 Q1 Yield 0.15 0.13
2007 Q2 Yield 0.17 0.14
2007 Q3 Yield 0.17 0.14

DEN-SLC

Date F9 WN
2005 Q1 Yield 0.29
2005 Q2 Yield 0.33
2005 Q3 Yield 0.34
2005 Q4 Yield 0.31
2006 Q1 Yield 0.26 0.13
2006 Q2 Yield 0.18 0.13
2006 Q3 Yield 0.16 0.15
2006 Q4 Yield 0.17 0.15
2007 Q1 Yield 0.19 0.16
2007 Q2 Yield 0.23 0.16
2007 Q3 Yield 0.25 0.18


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25846 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Keep in mind, with this move Frontier simply has elected to accept the leases as they exist, and did not contest their terms.

I suspect that with the rush into Ch11, Frontier has not had enough time to thoroughly review things to date, however might reopen the topic at a later stage and could very well try to push for new terms, or even return planes as its future business plans require.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25459 posts, RR: 86
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3647 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
I suspect that with the rush into Ch11, Frontier has not had enough time to thoroughly review things to date, however might reopen the topic at a later stage and could very well try to push for new terms, or even return planes as its future business plans require.

They may indeed.

However, while the actual Chapter 11 filing, and the circumstances of it, may have been unexpected, I think it is now fairly well established that the possibility of filing - and thus plans for it - were some way from being "a rush".

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7422 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3630 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
However, while the actual Chapter 11 filing, and the circumstances of it, may have been unexpected, I think it is now fairly well established that the possibility of filing - and thus plans for it - were some way from being "a rush".

Aren't you a little surprised they have not yanked the A318s? I've never heard anything good about them (economically, operationally, etc.) and yet they are still there so far. This would be a golden opportunity to leave them on Airbus' doorstep in a steaming bag in the middle of the night.

The fuel burn is virtually the same as the A319 so that's not helping either.


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

It is certainly nice to hear some positive news for a change.

I understand F9's leather seat manufacture put a stop to any deliveries (which is why not many of their a/c have leather yet). This true...any updates to this news?



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
25 AirframeAS : I wished they had lease returned the 318's and converted those to 319's instead. But with the additional 320's coming online, it should help with fue
26 Mariner : Not at all surprised. Whatever the present circumstances, and whatever the Conventional Wisdom about the A318, the aircraft have been very useful to
27 Post contains links Mariner : For those who haven't read it, there's a good article about Lynx in one of the Denver papers: http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/st...story2.html?b=121
28 LAXintl : I was given a heads up, and now have been able to verify it. While it turns out Frontier has indeed told the court that it will accept all outstanding
29 Mariner : Isn't "buying time" one of the essential virtues of Chapter 11? mariner
30 Enilria : Buying 320s doesn't change the 318s fuel burn. The fact that the operating cost of the A318 is almost exactly the same as the A319 isn't an opinion.
31 Cubsrule : I think SY may have the contract; both they and U5 flew ORD-CUN today (as did AM; I'm not sure what the story is with that flight).
32 Enilria : By the way, below are the only domestic F9 mainline markets that Southwest hasn't announced (Nov08 OAG). There are only 5 left that are not WN station
33 Cubsrule : DTW and SDF might be safe (both are pretty small stations and pretty far from DEN), and given that they'll have to cut something else to start SNA, i
34 Mariner : I shrug. I guess you didn't read what I wrote: The fact that Frontier chose to buy more A318's - after the first had been flying and they knew the ec
35 Enilria : I think (and I could be wrong) that a bunch of SNA slots have opened up in the last few months due to cutbacks. As I understand it, there is a volume
36 Cubsrule : I don't agree with you. You cite a bunch of examples of routes WN hasn't chosen to open... let's look at them BUR: 2 destinations outside of the stat
37 Mariner : As you've said many times. Many, many times, despite the fact that Southwest CEO Kelly has said there was another target and despite the fact that yo
38 LAXintl : Indeed, and looks like Frontier has worked things out so that it has a option to jettison up to 21 aircraft at the end of the summer with minimal leg
39 Johnclipper : Probably because the lessor doesn't want the aircraft sitting on foreign ground (harder to repo) if they go belly-up at a moment's notice...
40 Enilria : Do you have reasons for the other 30+ stations they haven't added DEN from? ??? If you mean do I have a signed affidavit from WN's CEO then no, but o
41 AirframeAS : That is not what I meant. WN is not going after F9. What makes you really think that? If WN went after F9, they would be overlapping routes. WN is mo
42 Cubsrule : It's not any different from any other new station... they go to their large stations (MDW/LAS/PHX) and the short routes where they can stimulate dema
43 Mariner : Why not? He flat out said they were targeting United at DEN. mariner
44 Enilria : Huh? There's only 5 F9 routes WN hasn't added (existing WN stations) and 25 they have added. Isn't that overlapping them? They had 7 roundtrips at th
45 AirframeAS : Not really. WN isn't going after F9. That's YOUR opinion then. Again, YOUR opinion.
46 KingCavalier : Can you please get your facts straight? Yes, WN and F9 overlap on some routes, but there are over 20 cities that F9 flies to that WN does not!
47 Enilria : You didn't read where it says "existing WN stations". There are only 5 WN stations left that are also F9 stations and have not been added from Denver
48 KingCavalier : Who cares?!
49 AirframeAS : I'm sorry, I have to say you are incorrect. Sorry. But just because one carrier flies into the same stations as another carrier does not mean they ar
50 Cubsrule : What exactly would WN have done differently if they had not been trying to go after F9?
51 KingCavalier : The fact is Enilria is selective with his facts. The board is about Frontier, but he has turn every F9 board into WN is killing F9 board. It's all so
52 F9Animal : Oh god, is this turning into another WN is out to destroy thread? Give me a break. WN started DEN because they knew there was money to be made in Colo
53 FreequentFlier : Actually, no there really isn't enough room for all three.. DEN isn't NYC or LAX. It's really only big enough for two hubbed carriers, particularly a
54 Mariner : I would have thought that entirely depends on the size of the hub the three wanted to maintain, together with their own perceptions of their core mar
55 FreequentFlier : Actually, I had thought your quote was an incorrect statement, went back and fact checked myself and while Kelly didn't directly say they were target
56 Enilria : OK, nobody read post #32. Here is how you reach 91%. Numerator: Total F9 mainline capacity in Southwest Routes --------------------------------------
57 AirframeAS : Nice try. See....
58 ScottB : Perhaps, but only choosing F9 mainline capacity is being unfairly selective in that Southwest has no control over which cities F9 chooses to serve wi
59 Enilria : Actually I believe the percentage is the same (or higher) if you include Lynx because there are no Lynx exclusive stations that are also WN stations
60 ScottB : Both ELP and BOI are WN stations served by F9 and/or Lynx that lack non-stop WN service to/from DEN. Oh, I do agree that WN is targeting the competit
61 Enilria : BOI routinely has F9 mainline, but my point is that those and the few others listed above are the few remaining. WN has added 25 of the 30 joint stat
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