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BA First New Product?  
User currently offlineJoeyby From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 59 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7104 times:

Im going to be travelling BA FIRST in august, and was wondering if it is indeed true that the cabin/seats are over 7 years old. I understand they recently made some minor upgrades, but none where i think it mattered most (seat and PTVS which are tiny!). being that club world is at such a high standard and a true competitor with what other airlines offer, who would be willing to pay such a premium to travel first, where u recieve a smaller PTV, minimally larger seat and not that much of a difference to justify the price.
I've searched through the airliners.net archives and have found one topic but that was from 2006 and they were talking about a new seat/service/cabin which would be rolled out in 2007! Whats going on!?!?
Im not saying its a bad service it just doesnt even touch the heels of EK. I think if BA do want to stay as one of the 'big' airlines they need to upgrade their first product immediately! and not just add a meal before the flight or a turndown service....
your thoughts thanks

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

The new F seat from all the rumours I hear is getting released sometime next year.

Meanwhile enjoy the great service on BA, and if going though T5, enjoy the amazing new Concorde Lounge


User currently offlineHenkybaby From Netherlands, joined May 2008, 593 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

I just flew BA in F. I agree that the product is not on the same level as SQ or EK.

The cabin is very dated and is at places repaired with duct tape (no kidding!). The seats are comfortable but nothing special. In fact, I think BA's Business Class is not that much worse. With the NCW seats you have a great sense of privacy with the divider up and it looks better.

I was also underwhelmed with the 'famous BA service'. My cabin was full and I pressed the call button twice without it ever being answered. The food was pretty lousy both in taste and presentation. I did not yet experience the Concorde lounge at T5 but I will in September. I certainly hope that my future experiences will be better.

I will try BA (One World) for a year after transferring from SkyTeam but if things don't improve soon I will have to choose the more expensive but far more impressive Star Alliance.



Wherever you go, there you are!
User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6947 times:



Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 2):
I will try BA (One World) for a year after transferring from SkyTeam but if things don't improve soon I will have to choose the more expensive but far more impressive Star Alliance.

Well there might be a clue there! The BA hard product is overdue an upgrade, meant to ne lte this/early next year, but I guess oil effect may mean capital expenditure gets deferred a while. They still manage reasonable loads in the F cabin and there are probably a large number of die-hards who are just accustomed to it (and accept when it was first launched it was fantastic and well ahead of anyone else, now it is tired and has been overtaken) but it is still very comfortable with a number of nice touches and generally attentive service (not sure why anyone would feel the need to push the call button mind you, it is generally quite a relaxed form of formality in the cabin)


User currently offlineHenkybaby From Netherlands, joined May 2008, 593 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6924 times:

Normally I push the call button if I need a flight attendant... I do not understand the issue with that. But to clarify: I wanted to order dinner and at first I waited for the attendant to show his face (*the seatbelt sign was on at the time), when nobody came for some time I pressed the call button. After 20 minutes I went to the galley and ordered from there. Not what I expect in F.

Mind you: I am not saying the service is dreadful, but an F seat is still is the most expensive real estate in the world.



Wherever you go, there you are!
User currently offlineNU From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6807 times:

Agree with the "dated" comments. I presume the PTV had AVOD as the last time I used it (18 months ago) you were given your film in a cartirdge. However, the major reason I would want F over J is the extra legroom as I am 6'5" and NCW is 6'1".


Aer Maighdean abu
User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1437 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6717 times:

The other good news is that very shortly BA cabin crew will be sent through a new "Premium Training" course where they will all be re-trained to a new higher standard for both First class and CW. The idea behind the new training programme is to bring all crew regardless of length of time in the company in line with the current (or new) service routines. It must be remembered that the majority of crew only recieve First class (and CW ) training once and then are sent on the line without regular refreshers so they tend to get "stuck in their ways" so to speak. Then years later when newer crew are trained in First they could be trained to a different specification resulting in major inconsistencies and explaines why on one day you may get a great service and on others you get a hap hazard one!!!!

Hopefully all First trained crew should be through this new course by the time the new cabins are installed and it should bring an instant improvement to the overall standard!!!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6717 times:

The new First, WTP and WT products have all started testing.

First will be a dramatic and agreed by many including the management a much needed upgrade. One of the reasons for the delay had been that BA where looking at removing the F product across the fleet. However with F pax numbers on the increase they have decided to keep it and invest heavily in what will be a complete relaunch in late 08 early 09.

WT and WTP will also get a overhaul with completely new seats and service. Service changes will be implemented before the introduction of the new seats and trials of the new services are on going. BA also want to invest in WTP which after J contributes the most revenue to the business


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6625 times:



Quoting Joeyby (Thread starter):
and PTVS which are tiny!

I do not know what size the screens are but be assured that as in some other things, size is not everything.

When I was involved with the Motion Picture industry (which is now almost 25 years ago) the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) had a formula (which I cannot find on their web site today) relating an ideal screen size to a specific viewing distance.

The formula was based on the peripheral vision of an average human. It ensures that the sort of problems you can have with a modern large TV screen in a relatively small room do not occur. When the screen size is too large for the viewing distance it is possible for a viewer to be observing one part of the screen and, because we all have limited peripheral vision, to entirely miss something happening on another part of the screen. (You can test this for yourself by sitting too close to your home TV and then focusing on one part of the screen before checking out whether or not you could see all the detail on all other parts of the screen. A football game is an ideal subject for this test as the eye tends to follow the ball and not look at and therefore miss some key off-ball player movement. And this is why commentators mostly observe play directly and do not commentate on the picture we are viewing.)

So the ideal sized screen on a PTVS syatem is not the biggest screen you can fit. It depends upon the relative positioning of the screen and the viewer. But how BA F Class PTVS measure up to this standard I simply have no idea.

As an aside it is interesting to note that our peripheral vision is greater when it is dark because we are using the more light sensitive rod receptors in our eyes that surround the centrally positioned but not so sensitive cones that we use in daylight or when we are viewing an illuminated screen.


User currently offlineAlaskaqantas From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6604 times:

funny, I was searching for a thread about this yesterday.
Im flying BA F in August as well.

So will they be launching the new seats slowly across the fleet or can we expect a fairly fast switch?
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.



to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6484 times:

The rollout will happen quite quick. Exact date not yet known.

User currently offlineOzvirginuk From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 396 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6318 times:



Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 9):
funny, I was searching for a thread about this yesterday.
Im flying BA F in August as well.

Snap!! Well actually i was thinking Oct, but hey..

After reading this, I think I might save myself the $5000 difference between CW and F (2 tix) and fly in Club World. If NCW is as good as everyone says, I'm not sure there difference between that and F is justified by the price..


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6223 times:
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Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 11):
I'm not sure there difference between that and F is justified by the price..

Currently on BA, I don't think it is either.

The only benefit for me of F over J is that you have more room. Compared to the new J product, I think F is currently overpriced (even with the extra room).



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineOzvirginuk From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 396 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6197 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 12):
The only benefit for me of F over J is that you have more room. Compared to the new J product, I think F is currently overpriced (even with the extra room).

Actually, when you look at the seatmap for BA F (and QF for that matter) they squeeze 14 seats in the nose of the place. Seems a little cramped. Upper Deck NCW certainly appears to be less congested.

Also, when you consider some of the high quality Asian carriers they have less seats in F. SQ and MH have 12, TG have 10 and CX now only have 9 in their new config.. Now THAT's spacious,,


User currently offlineHenkybaby From Netherlands, joined May 2008, 593 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5893 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 7):
First will be a dramatic and agreed by many including the management a much needed upgrade. One of the reasons for the delay had been that BA where looking at removing the F product across the fleet. However with F pax numbers on the increase they have decided to keep it and invest heavily in what will be a complete relaunch in late 08 early 09.

Not to doubt your expertise, but what is the basis for this wisdom? I searched several sites but cannot find anything indicating that BA is planning a revamp. Actually, if the plans where in the stage you suggest it would be very foolish of BA not to announce this on their website.

I am flying both end of 08 and early 09 in F and BA assures me there are no plans for restyling, refitting or changing their F cabins before then. I am just wondering: what do you know that they don't?



Wherever you go, there you are!
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5892 times:

I hope BA's new First product is good enough to match the Middle East and Asian carriers which have the better products at the moment.

User currently offlineHenkybaby From Netherlands, joined May 2008, 593 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5870 times:

I am not even sure there is going to be a new product any time soon....


Wherever you go, there you are!
User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 878 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5792 times:



Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 14):

Not to doubt your expertise, but what is the basis for this wisdom? I searched several sites but cannot find anything indicating that BA is planning a revamp. Actually, if the plans where in the stage you suggest it would be very foolish of BA not to announce this on their website.

Actually BA is very smart not to announce it until it is totally ready. As for where BALHRWWCC got the info from, it is well known within BA that plans are well advanced for a new First and changes to the WTP and WT cabins also. I believe that management has also publicly stated that we are looking at a new First...this was mentioned at one of the investor days during the past year.


User currently offlineHenkybaby From Netherlands, joined May 2008, 593 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5757 times:

Well, I will keep my fingers crossed.

However as a marketeer I would find it extremely poor marketing that if you are already in the stage where you plan your roll out (as stated) you keep this a secret. If you are planning the roll out you know what the product is (how else can you plan it?) and you would communicate this to keep existing or attract new customers. This is what most airlines do. They often communicate the new product when still in the design stage. I am sure that BA discusses the need for updates, but I am just less sure they are already in the stage that is suggested.

Could you explain the rationale behind keeping the cards this close to their chest when (or if) they are already in the planning stage?



Wherever you go, there you are!
User currently offlineJoeyby From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5733 times:



Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 16):
I am not even sure there is going to be a new product any time soon....

I can only agree after spending literally an hour scouring the internet I cannot find one mention of a new first product.
My only guess would be a new First in 2012 when BA receive the A380, meaning BA First cabin would have been in service for over 11 years.....scary. The only other option I can think of is BA scrapping First, which i dont really see them doing.
I cant understand what on earth BA are doing not announcing their new First product (if their is such a thing) its marketing suicide from what i can see.
I really hope BA execs read airliners.net and would take notice of the fact that i will not fly First in BA again after my already booked flight in August unless they decide to seriously upgrade their cabin in First, i will save myself a couple of thousand pounds and fly Club world or maybe even Virgin upper class (the ba exec must be sweating by now).
If anyone does find any links proving BA are looking to update their First product please include a link or a reliable source!


User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5711 times:



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 6):
The other good news is that very shortly BA cabin crew will be sent through a new "Premium Training" course where they will all be re-trained to a new higher standard for both First class and CW. The idea behind the new training programme is to bring all crew regardless of length of time in the company in line with the current (or new) service routines. It must be remembered that the majority of crew only recieve First class (and CW ) training once and then are sent on the line without regular refreshers so they tend to get "stuck in their ways" so to speak. Then years later when newer crew are trained in First they could be trained to a different specification resulting in major inconsistencies and explaines why on one day you may get a great service and on others you get a hap hazard one!!!!

Hopefully all First trained crew should be through this new course by the time the new cabins are installed and it should bring an instant improvement to the overall standard!!!

That is a weak excuse. Most of the issues have everything to do with commonly expected customer service issues - like treating all customers with respect and responding with service or an explanation of why the service cannot be performed when requested.


User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5629 times:



Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 18):
Well, I will keep my fingers crossed.

However as a marketeer I would find it extremely poor marketing that if you are already in the stage where you plan your roll out (as stated) you keep this a secret. If you are planning the roll out you know what the product is (how else can you plan it?) and you would communicate this to keep existing or attract new customers. This is what most airlines do. They often communicate the new product when still in the design stage. I am sure that BA discusses the need for updates, but I am just less sure they are already in the stage that is suggested.

Well that is crap! When NGCW was launched, the website went live wth official launch material (and BAEC members mailed with details) when the first bird when into the hangar for conversion.

BA do not generally publicise what they will be doing in the future as no one wants to fly a picture of a plane! You want to at least know the product is in the air even if only on a handful of frames.

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 13):
Actually, when you look at the seatmap for BA F (and QF for that matter) they squeeze 14 seats in the nose of the place. Seems a little cramped. Upper Deck NCW certainly appears to be less congested.

On 744 it is 12 seats, on 777 it can be 12, 13 or 14

Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 16):
I am not even sure there is going to be a new product any time soon....

At the last shareholders annual meeting the new F and WTP projects were clearly highlighted as important next stages in the overhaul of the premium product offering which started with NGCW, then the new lounge concepts (Terraces being replaced by Galleries). Its all one programme that is still a work in progress. NGCW roll out on the 777 fleet has only recently started. These things dont happen overnight. NO details were given of course but its an active project with a real budget!


User currently offlineJoeyby From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5619 times:



Quoting Mutu (Reply 21):
NO details were given of course but its an active project with a real budget!

Where is the proof?!


User currently offlineHenkybaby From Netherlands, joined May 2008, 593 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5582 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 7):
However with F pax numbers on the increase they have decided to keep it and invest heavily in what will be a complete relaunch in late 08 early 09.



Quoting Mutu (Reply 21):
Its all one programme that is still a work in progress. NGCW roll out on the 777 fleet has only recently started. These things dont happen overnight. NO details were given of course but its an active project with a real budget!

I was actually contesting the first statement. And as you so clearly state, there are no concrete plans to roll out a new F product anytime soon. That they are discussing the need for it I do not doubt. The timeline is however not known or set. Thank you for making my point.

Quoting Mutu (Reply 21):
Well that is crap!

I don't think that is your call.



Wherever you go, there you are!
User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5563 times:



Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 23):
was actually contesting the first statement. And as you so clearly state, there are no concrete plans to roll out a new F product anytime soon. That they are discussing the need for it I do not doubt. The timeline is however not known or set. Thank you for making my point.

I think you have misunderstood. There is more than a plan and a budget, there is an approved product covered by non disclosures (same as NGCW) but i cant prove it to you and certainly dont have to!!

But you are the professional marketing consultant so how far ahead should BA publish what it is going to do? I thought all airlines kept new seat designs closely guarded until prior to fit out so as to avoid anyone exploiting the IP.....(well I bet QF and their A380 interiors wish they had kept quiet now!)

Anyway enough lets agree that you are right


25 UPPERDECKFAN : It's 14, 2 in the first row and 3 rows of 4
26 Henkybaby : It is not about being right. I am just very surprised that I am reading that they decided on a revamp in 2006 of CW and F which consisted of NCW and
27 Speedbird2155 : The NCW product was similarly subject to a NDA and was kept well secret until it was launched. People knew it was coming and there was much speculati
28 RTFM : Right number, wrong config: it's (from the front) 3 rows of 2 then 2 rows of 4. 1 A/K 2 A/K 3 A/K 4 A/E/F/K 5 A/E/F/K
29 JAL : I'm curious to know too if BA is ever going to redesign their First Class cabin!
30 Henkybaby : I am clearly doing a very bad job of getting my point across... Once again: that is not what I am suggesting. I am saying that if the above is true an
31 JACK02116 : If you are on a 747 get a seat upstairs (Row 60 to 64) ........... way better than the Main Deck. And go for a window seat - althogh rear facing you
32 Post contains images Henkybaby : Seat 62K! It does not get better! Indeed! Compare with F: [Edited 2008-06-12 14:34:33]
33 JACK02116 : I prefer 64A or 64K as not near the emergency exit in the middle of the cabin which can be sometimes a bit draughty and cold. 64K also has about 6 inc
34 Speedbird2155 : Taken form the British Airways 2007/08 Annual Report and Accounts page 34
35 Henkybaby : Great news. I am still afraid it means they will 'introduce' the product end of 2009 and start rolling it out in 2010, but that is just me. Guess I wo
36 Henkybaby : {Removed double post}[Edited 2008-06-12 14:47:42]
37 Joeyby : Could you please tell me where u found this!? you've made my night! I just really hope theyre not adding something minor like chocolates on your pill
38 Henkybaby : Just guessing he found it in the 2007/2008 BA Annual Report...
39 VV701 : Go to the BA web site. Go to the bottom of their home page. Click on 'Company Information'. Click on '2007-08 Annual Report'. Go to page 34.
40 Henkybaby : On page 37 it even says (in the text next to the picture): "and First will be relaunched next year". I just hope launching the product goes hand in ha
41 Jfk777 : The new First Class will be an A380 launched product, there could be an intermediate warmover on the 744. Perhaps if BA orders any 77W then a new Firs
42 Speedmarque : No. Wrong. Said with authority but...wrong. There may well be a stand-alone new product on our A380 (like SIA Suites for example) but the whole fleet
43 Speedmarque : D U P E P O S T[Edited 2008-06-13 05:33:58]
44 Joeyby : BA are recieving their A380s in 2012, three years! [quote=Joeyby,reply=37]Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 34): Taken form the British Airways 2007/08 An
45 Speedmarque : Not sure on this Joeyby, I mentioned it as it may well happen but who knows? The big BA word of the last couple of years is "consistency" so would we
46 Vasu : Very interested, especially in the revamped Y class as mentioned on here... I had thought for a while that an update may be coming soon...!
47 CityofAthens : Henkybaby, I didn't realise BA's service was 'famous' .... I think someone may have exaggerated the service levels to you there ... unless you took y
48 Speedmarque : Ahem.......first EVER fully flat beds in business class? Look at how we changed the market there.
49 Henkybaby : If all carriers in the OneWorld alliance carried a product like Club World I would be estatic! The reason for changing to OW over SkyTeam was the fla
50 CityofAthens : Hello Speedmarque, You are right of course ... however, when I said/typed 'upgrade' I meant an upgrade of the seat/product to higher/more current/more
51 Toptravel : After flying F/C last year LHR/SYD/LHR on BA, I'd give it a big miss, very ordinary in every aspect, including the handeling of 18 hour delay. I've re
52 Fbgdavidson : I've heard from various sources (including a CSD on a recent flight) that new First isn't going to be radically different,evolution rather than revolu
53 Henkybaby : Well, let's agree to disagree. If you are right SQ, CX, LAN, BA (OCW to NCW) and many more other airlines are experts in the noble art of foot shooti
54 Joeyby : I never thought this post would kick off the way it did! lol. Some very interesting points made here, but no definitive answers as such as to when BA
55 Brilondon : Good luck. I just returned from London on BA in first and it was no biggie. Not really impressed with the whole experience. T5 is still not that grea
56 Tonystan : I both agree and disagree with you on this one. On one hand you can chose what flights you book based on the aircraft that is going to have the produ
57 VV701 : For clarification the statement is on page 34 of a 136 page report in which no detailed information appears until the start of the "Business Review"
58 BALHRWWCC : Weird just looked at my reply 10 and I never said this quote. I do hope someone isn't trying to put words in my mouth. The First product will be laun
59 Viscount724 : Just curious, how does a 16 to 20 year old justify paying multi thousands of pounds to fly first class? Do you really consider the huge price differe
60 Post contains links Henkybaby : The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Here is a typical example of an airline announcing the new products before the actual introduction: http://
61 Speedbird2155 : Don't see how they really justify your position. The JAL and Qatar products are in the process of being rolled out and are defined products that can
62 Henkybaby : So far the counter argument has been that no airline should announce their product untill it actually flies. JAL roll out starts August 1st (so not st
63 Joeyby : So does anyone actually have an answer as to if and when BA are updating their First product!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? (proof needed)
64 Speedmarque : No they are not going to give you an answer........that may cost their job. You are just going to have to be patient.
65 Airnewzealand : Your Kidding right??? Qantas was actually the innovator behind the all-day dining menus in Business and also the 8-course menu in First. Singapore ai
66 Jfk777 : Given Qantas, JAL, Cathay, Singapore and others have introduced new First Products, BA has teh advantage of seeing what is new. I think BA will have a
67 JAL : The new BA First Class better be good if they are coming out with a new one!
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