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TOL: Feeling The Pain Of Cutbacks?  
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3768 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1844 times:

As a person living in FWA, just down US24 from TOL, I've been watching the rapid descent of TOL with a close eye to see what happens when bad management can kill a potential-filled airport. First, airlines cut back frequencies. Then, DL drops service to ATL, the world's largest and most powerful hub. Now, CO drops CLE (again).

What's with that? They just remodeled the terminal with the food court a few years back, hoping for passenger increases and new airlines. Instead, they got this. Well, I feel that CVG is next, and that DTW will be dead once the DL/NW merger goes through and that Eagle will pull out of ORD-TOL as part of the fall AA cutbacks. IMO, once the dust settles, G4 will be all that is left.

Do I feel sorry for the airline employees at TOL losing their jobs? Yes. But TOL needs fresh pax management, as that 90% leakage to DTW is atrocious, even in Ohio's hard economic times.


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Deregualtion hasnt been good to TOL..they use ot have DL and US mainline and UA mainline as well.

User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1661 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1785 times:



Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
and that DTW will be dead once the DL/NW merger goes through

A lot of what you said is true, but I have to disagree with this statement. IF the merger goes through, and we shall see what happens in the industry before it is approved, DTW will be the second largest hub in the NW/DL system. Some have said that it might become the primary Asian Gateway for the new carrier. If the deal goes throught, DTW will grow in size, not die



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1779 times:



Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Well, I feel that CVG is next

As some others have said on here, I fully expect them to announce within a few weeks they are pulling out also. I have heard it from many people that Delta was only kept profitable because of the ground contract they had with Continental.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
that DTW will be dead once the DL/NW merger goes through

Ehh...I would give it a 50/50 chance. NW has some good corporate contracts to provide service to Toledo. A certain automaker actually could choose DTW and fly nonstop but they get double miles or some very healthy incentive to fly TOL instead.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
and that Eagle will pull out of ORD-TOL as part of the fall AA cutbacks.

I actually don't see this happening unless American goes completely under. American has a lot of corporate contracts here in Toledo and also have other contracts in which businesses work here in Toledo. If something pans out, it could solidify their position in Toledo...just have to wait.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 1):
Deregualtion hasnt been good to TOL..

I am pretty close to jumping on the "end TOL passenger services and link Toledo with Detroit Metro train service" band wagon. At least the area could retain some jobs by supporting DTW...better then not having any jobs at all..

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
They just remodeled the terminal with the food court a few years back,

Now they can close the east wing Big grin


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1754 times:



Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 2):
Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
and that DTW will be dead once the DL/NW merger goes through

A lot of what you said is true, but I have to disagree with this statement. IF the merger goes through, and we shall see what happens in the industry before it is approved, DTW will be the second largest hub in the NW/DL system. Some have said that it might become the primary Asian Gateway for the new carrier. If the deal goes throught, DTW will grow in size, not die

I have to be missing something here....  Confused

DTW dying? or NW's DTW-TOL service dying..........



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3768 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1722 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 4):
DTW dying? or NW's DTW-TOL service dying..........

I meant to say that DTW-TOL is dying. My bad.

Make no mistake, DTW as an airport will play an even stronger role in a combined DL/NW.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4605 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

The one positive to TOL pax service dying, would be they could fire the pathetic management team they have in the airport. All excuses aside, the airport hasn't attempted anything unique or innovative to attract new service in the last...8 years. Rockford tried some new stuff, no the service really didn't last, but the effort they at least counts for something.

My assumption on what happens with TOL.

NW/DL will retain a schedule of 4-6 flights a day to DTW post merger. CVG will be done away with. I wouldn't rule out at least one flight a day to ATL again once the situation with fuel clears up.

G4 continues to do their thing as usual.

AA remains and probably solidifies their base customers and possible throws a bone of DFW to them in a year or two.

Other than that, not much else. Not that the opportunity isn't there, the Port Authority just won't do anything to make it happen. It will involve a lot of creativity that they simply don't have.

How do you rebuild TOL? It is hard to really develop a plan without seeing the numbers they are working with there. It really will involve a lot of reinvestment into the facility and evaluation of how much cost the airport is forcing on the airlines. The service offered initially will also need to be focused on getting people to use the airport again first, then add in the higher yeild routes for business passengers.

TOL is really about changing habits, and that is going to take a lot of work. Unfortunately, I don't know how long that will take. TOL was built in a bad area, especially with most of the population to the east - well within easy highway access to DTW. I still say move passenger operations to TDZ, but that's just me.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7657 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

People are always very quick to jump on TOL's airport management, yet what is happening now is very much beyond their control. Look at the state of the industry currently, and the local economy of Northwestern Ohio. These two factors are what is causing the airlines to leave, not so much anything the airport adminstration could do to prevent them from going.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
As a person living in FWA, just down US24 from TOL, I've been watching the rapid descent of TOL with a close eye to see what happens when bad management can kill a potential-filled airport. First, airlines cut back frequencies. Then, DL drops service to ATL, the world's largest and most powerful hub. Now, CO drops CLE (again).

DL was cutting hub over-flying across the board, not just TOL. CVG-TOL suited the majority of passenger connectivity. For the more exotic ATL-exclusive destinations, one could fly DL from DTW.

CO has never been fully committed to TOL anyways. The fact that they apparently cut DTW-CLE in addition to TOL-CLE speaks volumes more about the viability of CLE than it does just TOL.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Well, I feel that CVG is next, and that DTW will be dead once the DL/NW merger goes through and that Eagle will pull out of ORD-TOL as part of the fall AA cutbacks. IMO, once the dust settles, G4 will be all that is left.

As long as there is a hub at DTW, there will be DTW-TOL service (NW or DL)
AA has the ORD-TOL market all to themselves and points westward (ORD has much better west coast access than NW @ DTW) and isn't going away anytime
DL will fly TOL-CVG as long as CVG remains a hub.

Its not going to be the doomsday scenario you predict.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Do I feel sorry for the airline employees at TOL losing their jobs? Yes. But TOL needs fresh pax management, as that 90% leakage to DTW is atrocious, even in Ohio's hard economic times.

I'm not sure what the appropriate measure would be, but with DTW very close with expontentially more service worldwide at more competitive fares, that number will always be such. The leisure passengers will always travel for lower fares. With the LCC presensce at DTW, and all airlines in crisis mode, no is going to be walking into TOL anytime soon. (Unless the airport administration were to 100% fully subsidize flights to guarantee profitability)


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3311 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1630 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
People are always very quick to jump on TOL's airport management, yet what is happening now is very much beyond their control. Look at the state of the industry currently, and the local economy of Northwestern Ohio. These two factors are what is causing the airlines to leave, not so much anything the airport adminstration could do to prevent them from going.

You are exactly correct. Those people criticizing TOL management are fundamentally wrong on two major issues.

First, TOL management is very aggressive and perhaps "more outside the box" than most other airports of its size.

Second, the critics presume that there is anything TOL could do to prevent this. TOL's tools amount to a finger in the New Orleans levies after Katrina. The economics of this business are overwhelming anything the good folks at TOL can do about it.

The fact is that the critics of TOL are oblivious to the industry around them. TOL is being affected the same way that nearly every other airport its size in the Midwest near a fortress hub is.

The people running TOL are excellent at what they do, they just can't perform miracles.


User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4605 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1584 times:



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
People are always very quick to jump on TOL's airport management, yet what is happening now is very much beyond their control. Look at the state of the industry currently, and the local economy of Northwestern Ohio. These two factors are what is causing the airlines to leave, not so much anything the airport adminstration could do to prevent them from going.

Let me rephrase a bit or clarify more. The fuel costs now are absolutely going to devistate service at airport such as TOL, especially being so close to a major hub with little congestion issues. Also Northwest Ohio is a mess economically, thanks to the local leadership/politicians that have done nothing progressive and just recycle through different offices when they get term limited.

My belief is that the Port Authority should have started working more aggressively before gas skyrocketed to hedge their position now. Will TOL recover? Absolutely. It'll just take a few years.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
I'm not sure what the appropriate measure would be, but with DTW very close with expontentially more service worldwide at more competitive fares, that number will always be such. The leisure passengers will always travel for lower fares. With the LCC presensce at DTW, and all airlines in crisis mode, no is going to be walking into TOL anytime soon. (Unless the airport administration were to 100% fully subsidize flights to guarantee profitability)

Depending on how the numbers look, they'll need to find a way to bring in a larger discount airline and give them what they need. The key will be the operation will need to operate to several cities nonstop, have fares that will attract people, and allow for enough time for the market to mature - with subsidies if needed. I know they are HIGHLY unlikely, but my two targets would be either AirTran or Spirit...and TOL would replace their DTW operation.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
First, TOL management is very aggressive and perhaps "more outside the box" than most other airports of its size.

Since they refuse to do this in public or private conversations, especially since Brian Schwartz left, please list how and I'll back off.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
Second, the critics presume that there is anything TOL could do to prevent this. TOL's tools amount to a finger in the New Orleans levies after Katrina. The economics of this business are overwhelming anything the good folks at TOL can do about it.

There are plenty of small markets that are still holding on to services even through all the cuts. They may not have a mega hub north of them, but they are pretty close to other major markets and are no where near losing all schedule passenger service. Even during the problems in the 80s, it never got that bad for TOL.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
The fact is that the critics of TOL are oblivious to the industry around them. TOL is being affected the same way that nearly every other airport its size in the Midwest near a fortress hub is.

The people running TOL are excellent at what they do, they just can't perform miracles.

Let's call it a lack of information. If you have specifics to counter the critics of TOL's management, please give specifics. However, everyone knows that you don't bite that hand that feeds you (current, past, and present tense)...since you have stated your consulted the TOL management before. It would be highly unlikely you would provide any critism directly at them considering your relationship with the TOL management.

I go back to what I said earlier, other airports have hedged their benefits before a downturn like this could happen. Airports like CAK and FNT went out and did what they needed to do to grow in the shadow of a hub airport. They are also able to make it through this current period without getting totally crushed by the airline industry collapsing.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3311 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1561 times:



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 9):
since you have stated your consulted the TOL management before.

You are incorrect. I said that I've never been paid by TOL or the Port for any consulting work.

I am, however, far more aware of their efforts than you are. I've been on the receiving end of their efforts on many occasions. Despite what you may want, they cannot and should not discuss all of their strategies and tactics in the public eye.

You need to give up on the FNT and CAK argument. Toledo had it's shot and blew it. It wasn't the fault of airport management. Once FL went into DTW for competitive reasons, the odds of FL at TOL were incinerated. AirTran long ago stopped adding secondary airports in the rust belt. Their strategy simply changed.

On the other hand, you will never know how close TOL was to landing Skybus. But it wasn't meant to be.

Sometimes you just draw a bad hand. TOL has exactly that at the moment. Its not going to change no matter what the airport administration tries. The economics of this are far beyond the airports ability to influence, and have been for a long time now.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5821 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

Some on a.net have criticized Allegiant after they pulled TOL-LAS. I notice some of those critics haven't piped up on this thread yet.

Unfortunately, it appears that Allegiant was only identifying some weakness/problems in the TOL market before other airlines did. Competition at DTW is a big problem for TOL.

I do wish all of you in TOL the best of luck to ride things out. FAT air service bottomed out a decade or two back and it was a long road back up. TOL will turn back around but it will take time.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3123 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1510 times:



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
People are always very quick to jump on TOL's airport management



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
First, TOL management is very aggressive and perhaps "more outside the box" than most other airports of its size.



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
TOL is being affected the same way that nearly every other airport its size in the Midwest near a fortress hub is.

First let me say that I respect A-Net members PSU.DTW.SCE & Jetlanta without question as members and as people entitled to a opinion. That will never change even though we may disagree. However I have to disagree with their conclusions because of what I will call the evidence of effort. There just isn't the evidence to back up the conclusion of "more outside the box" concepts that would translate into an advancement of air service at TOL.

No one can discount the fact that other airports in similair or almost identical situations have managed (and I emphasize the word managed) to try some newly created concept usually authored by themselves to at least try and inch a little forward. Now this concept was heavily discussed in a thread last year so I won't take it any further.

Many of us in this thread have examined this situation at TOL in significant detail over a great deal of time. Many have even chosen to remain positive no matter what happened. However after much thought and significant analysis the majority of individuals many of which live either in the immediate TOL area or have lived in that area have concluded pretty much the same things.

There is a feeling that creativity hasn't been inserted into the process. There is a feeling that promotion and marketing which would be visable is not there even though it is vital to maintaining an acquired new route. You would want to tell people about it so that they would use it and not face the frustration and embarrassment of losing it.

I have not witnessed any newly created ideas that would involve the potential excitement of the community such as polls to extract destination wishes. These concepts that pull in the community involvement inform as well as involve. Indirectly you can build your passenger numbers by the awareness of what you are doing. But you have to be doing something before you can involve the passenger base. You have to give them something they want like a bargain or a good deal to attract attention.

None of this thinking is that difficult because I have heard and read about these specific things being done elsewhere and they can work.

I fully understand that this type of planning has to be hush hush on some matters. Nothing wrong with that. But the TOL management doesn't communicate with the surrounding community or the local media. I know I check this constantly in the hope that they will at least choose to provide someone with something.

Now if anyone disagrees with me thats fine. Thats what is always in a forum of conversation. But if you do please list here what creative steps TOL has taken in the last 5 years to advance air service. Provide the rest of us with some of the promotion efforts that are attached to the existing TOL service. Just in fairness deliver the evidence that currect management is doing the job that you say they are doing.

I believe that is a fair request. Thanks for reading this lengthy responce.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1486 times:



Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 12):
But the TOL management doesn't communicate with the surrounding community or the local media. I know I check this constantly in the hope that they will at least choose to provide someone with something.

Then you are not looking hard enough, or not looking in the right places.

Perhaps they didn't start soon enough, but TOL has been VERY aggressive in marketing the airport in the local media in the past 12 months. Turn on a MudHens game on BCSN, the airport is there. Open up the Blade (formerly one of America's great newspapers), TOL is there. Heavy radio advertising on the Clear Channel stations that are most listened to. The airport aggressively promoted the upgraded CO service. If Congress would get off their collective a$$es and allow drilling to commence and refineries to be built, CO might not be pulling out of all these markets.

But the folks at TOL are trying very hard to bring people in to the airport. The perception that DTW is always cheaper is going to take more than a few months to overcome. TOL has been waking people up to the true costs on top of the ticket price. Sadly, its not enough to keep CO here at this time. My hear goes out to the Comair employees who ground handle CO in TOL. There will be jobs lost at TOL, and nobody wants to see that right now.


User currently offlineCMHARJ From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 127 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1486 times:



Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 12):
But if you do please list here what creative steps TOL has taken in the last 5 years to advance air service

Have you checked out the new bathrooms lately? They have glass sinks with a trough that makes it look like the water will hit your feet. Now if airlines don't flock to TOL because of this, I don't know what will.

But to answer your question, I really couldn't answer your question. They have that west wing that's still under construction. However, those contruction people have taken a LONG lunch break. It's been about 2 years since they started their lunch break. The guy who was in charge of the expansion hasn't done anything with it, of wait a minute, isn't he in charge of the new car rental car wash facility? That should bring in some new car rental places to the airport. Is that kid's mom still in prison because of the Tom Noe scandel? Maybe some of the airport's construction funds were involved in that scandel. That might be why the west wing isn't completed yet.

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 6):
All excuses aside, the airport hasn't attempted anything unique or innovative to attract new service in the last...8 years

Umm lets see. US Mainline pulled out in about 1999. US Express pulled out in 2004. DL Mainline pulled out in 1998 I believe. AirTran pulled out Twice. ATA pulled out way before the huge cuts with C8. DL went from being the largest carrier in TOL with about 16 daily flights to now just 3. ATL is history. NW lost jet service. AA lost DFW service, but it's going to come back once the DAL situation has settled, which was quite a while ago, but wait for it...wait for it...wait for it. CO has pulled out twice now. Who's next?

Could somebody please explain to me the story behind QuickFlight and how this outsourcing company got started and why is seems like the local airport management is drooling all over them.


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1409 times:



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
People are always very quick to jump on TOL's airport management, yet what is happening now is very much beyond their control. Look at the state of the industry currently, and the local economy of Northwestern Ohio. These two factors are what is causing the airlines to leave, not so much anything the airport adminstration could do to prevent them from going.



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
You are exactly correct. Those people criticizing TOL management are fundamentally wrong on two major issues.

You guys fail to realize where the major growth to Northwest Ohio's metro area has been over the past 10 years. Almost all of the growth has been to the south and west (towards the location of TOL). I would know, I was actually just looking at housing out in Perrysburg and Waterville and that is where I want to reside when I start my family. You can kiss downtown businesses good bye - look at OI (Perrysburg), Andersons (Maumee), and the list goes on. What they need to focus on is NORTHWEST OHIO...not Toledo proper. They need to focus on the suburbs of Toledo including places like Bowling Green (steady growth) and Findlay (fairly good growth). That's where the growth is...and those people and businesses continue to drive to DTW.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
The economics of this business are overwhelming anything the good folks at TOL can do about it.

Do good guys take prom queens home? Trust me I know....

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
I am, however, far more aware of their efforts than you are. I've been on the receiving end of their efforts on many occasions.

Hum......like typical politics here in Ohio that screams corruption, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt because I truely believe you have tried to make things better. I am dead serious when you say that. But, there is doubt in my mind because of the way things have played out here in Toledo and Ohio.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
Despite what you may want, they cannot and should not discuss all of their strategies and tactics in the public eye.

I agree...but I have yet to see any results...have you?

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
You need to give up on the FNT and CAK argument. Toledo had it's shot and blew it.

I hope you're not referring to me because I understand that as much as you do. I understand the competitive advantages they have over Toledo.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
On the other hand, you will never know how close TOL was to landing Skybus. But it wasn't meant to be.

Yup...I know...I heard they were going to run up to 3 routes out of TOL at 1x daily. They had the ground handling connection through Quick Flight (as much as people hated it) but we all know it would've worked except for stupid steps by SkyBus

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 12):

Someone who gets it.....I can't couldn't have said it much better myself. Karl, thank you for standing by in the crappy times.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Perhaps they didn't start soon enough, but TOL has been VERY aggressive in marketing the airport in the local media in the past 12 months. Turn on a MudHens game on BCSN, the airport is there.

As much as I like watching the MudHens (was there tonight), a majority of the area watches the games here in the area. Like I said earlier, need to focus on Northwest Ohio and that would mean not only Buckeye, it would require TimeWarner and other service providers...I was at the game tonight and all I saw was a mediocre "flytoledoexpress.com" sign behind home plate. I was up at a Michigan State University game a year and a half ago and they had a whole break and other promotions during a football game. There was and has been no mention of anything on major networks (which most people watch) to promotions other then (the weather cast is promoted by "Allegiant Air").

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
My heart goes out to the Comair employees who ground handle CO in TOL. There will be jobs lost at TOL, and nobody wants to see that right now.

Mine too...as I worked with most of them (since they are the most senior) when I worked out there.

Quoting CMHARJ (Reply 14):
Could somebody please explain to me the story behind QuickFlight and how this outsourcing company got started and why is seems like the local airport management is drooling all over them.

A weasel with the initials MW.

It's late, I will finish my thoughts in the morning.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7657 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1394 times:



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 9):
I know they are HIGHLY unlikely, but my two targets would be either AirTran or Spirit...and TOL would replace their DTW operation

AirTran tried it twice - ain't comin' back with DTW up the road. Plus they've been scaling back in secondary markets lately. Even FNT for FL is down compared to where it used to be. DTW hasn't been the stellar performer for FL either, other than about 3 months out of the year.

Spirit has zero interest in TOL. They are significantly cutting back in DTW, and almost entirely focusing their efforts on Southern Florida and points south.

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 9):
There are plenty of small markets that are still holding on to services even through all the cuts. They may not have a mega hub north of them, but they are pretty close to other major markets and are no where near losing all schedule passenger service. Even during the problems in the 80s, it never got that bad for TOL.

You said it right there, they may not have a mega hub 40 miles away.
TOL is nowhere near losing all of their scheduled service.

I compare TOL sort of to MBS. MBS has limited service and the airport administration has thrown their arms up in the air as to the extent of their leakage to FNT, and DTW.

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 9):
I go back to what I said earlier, other airports have hedged their benefits before a downturn like this could happen. Airports like CAK and FNT went out and did what they needed to do to grow in the shadow of a hub airport.

We've discussed their differences before. We have this discussion every 3 months.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
You need to give up on the FNT and CAK argument. Toledo had it's shot and blew it. It wasn't the fault of airport management. Once FL went into DTW for competitive reasons, the odds of FL at TOL were incinerated. AirTran long ago stopped adding secondary airports in the rust belt. Their strategy simply changed.

Agreed.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 12):
Now if anyone disagrees with me thats fine. Thats what is always in a forum of conversation. But if you do please list here what creative steps TOL has taken in the last 5 years to advance air service. Provide the rest of us with some of the promotion efforts that are attached to the existing TOL service. Just in fairness deliver the evidence that currect management is doing the job that you say they are doing.

I believe that is a fair request. Thanks for reading this lengthy responce.

I agree, both ways on that. I'm not saying management is doing a great job, nor am I say they are doing terrible. I'm just trying to put it in perspective for those who continually claim "TOL is underserved." You simply cannot ignore the unique attributes of the market and external factors that affect this industry.


User currently offlinePagoFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

Not sure why you would blame TOL folks , the management, for the cost of fuel?
TOL EXPRESS is a great airport, but it's days are numbered. WE love TOL..DTW is ok.
As a non-rev, we love TOL...I remember when DL had 3 (three) jets a day, mostly filled.


User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4605 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1383 times:



Quoting CMHARJ (Reply 14):
Could somebody please explain to me the story behind QuickFlight and how this outsourcing company got started and why is seems like the local airport management is drooling all over them.

Long story short. Former Mesaba station manager wanted to make some side money...started up QuickFlight. He got a contract to ground handle...I want to say it was TMA at one point, but that eventually went back to American. For employees, he used the Mesaba employees in TOL to work the contract. It wasn't reported back to Corporate and the employees received no additional compensation. Mesaba eventually found out...things got ugly...he's no longer Mesaba's TOL station manager.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
I am, however, far more aware of their efforts than you are. I've been on the receiving end of their efforts on many occasions. Despite what you may want, they cannot and should not discuss all of their strategies and tactics in the public eye.

Never said they should be totally open to the public. On several occassions I had the pleasure of hearing details of their efforts over a private lunch. The problem is, those there now, have taken the Dick Cheney approach to things.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
You need to give up on the FNT and CAK argument. Toledo had it's shot and blew it. It wasn't the fault of airport management. Once FL went into DTW for competitive reasons, the odds of FL at TOL were incinerated. AirTran long ago stopped adding secondary airports in the rust belt. Their strategy simply changed.

I don't care about AirTran. If they had stayed in TOL that would have been nice, but they didn't. I'm merely pointing out that CAK and FNT had a plan in place that allowed them to attract service and grow pretty quick. TOL was getting kicked in the gut by pull out after pull out and had nothing to fight back with.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 10):
On the other hand, you will never know how close TOL was to landing Skybus. But it wasn't meant to be.

Try me.  Smile

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 11):
Some on a.net have criticized Allegiant after they pulled TOL-LAS. I notice some of those critics haven't piped up on this thread yet.

Unfortunately, it appears that Allegiant was only identifying some weakness/problems in the TOL market before other airlines did. Competition at DTW is a big problem for TOL.

TOL-LAS on G4 was clear cut...you can't compete with Spirit in Detroit running dirt cheap fares.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
But the folks at TOL are trying very hard to bring people in to the airport. The perception that DTW is always cheaper is going to take more than a few months to overcome. TOL has been waking people up to the true costs on top of the ticket price. Sadly, its not enough to keep CO here at this time. My hear goes out to the Comair employees who ground handle CO in TOL. There will be jobs lost at TOL, and nobody wants to see that right now.

Definitely a rough time for the OH crew. They were a great bunch to be around when I was out there all the time. I think there are a few things the Port could try to do to get people out there. The biggest goal is to get them in the door, on the property, and actually educate them about the service. How to do this...

1) Re-establish a year travel fair at the airport. They use to do this all the time. All the local travel companies, airlines, and charters would be out there offering information about what is available out there. You couple this with incentives to get people to try TOL ($50+ travel vouchers or whatever) and also education on what the airport means to the area and can offer...it will help.

2) Abolish parking fees. This might be a tough one to swallow...but a good marketing gimmick. Park close to the terminal and park for free.

3) Improve terminal services. I would say offer and area that can be made into a business lounge for frequent flyers. It would offer complimentary juice and coffee in the morning, and soda in the afternoon. Along with a few simple treats and an ice cream machine - okay maybe not ice cream, but it would be yummy. Also, remove Opti-Fi from offering the airports Wi-Fi service and take it totally free. Granted it was their first airport, and I can't talk bad about them since my last company provided all the phone support for their customers...but still. Offering Wi-Fi service isn't that much anymore.

4) Offer free toll on turnpike. Setup a system where if a passenger shows their ticket/itinerary dated for travel on that date, their toll is waived. Not a lot, its less than a dollar I think from anywhere in the metro area to the airport. This also offers the ability for those on the SE side of Toledo and east to get to the airport in about 20 minutes.

I can list more...but the gist I'm getting at is simple things to just make it stand out. People go to DTW for fares, but the crowds are also a negative. TOL can play that up a bit, with a little pampering to the travelers. Just simple stuff that people can think on and be like, well yeah I have a connection to make, but at least when I get there I won't feel rushed and I can relax a bit before starting out. Hell even something gimmicky like an indoor putting green or something that just sticks out.

Air fares are going to go up regardless with these oil prices...and services on the flights will drop. Why not offer a little extra at the airport to just make people feel good about flying.

Okay i'm winded...more later.


User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1298 times:

I try to fly out of TOL as much as possible. I love that little airport. But, if they keep losing air carriers it will make it hard for me to do that. As a travel agent. I sometime will book my cruise line client out of TOL, because the air price is better (lower) then out of DTW. So this is not good if they keep lossing carriers.

Chuck


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