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Tel Aviv As A Hub?  
User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 955 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

For obvious political reasons as well as El Al’s policy of not flying on the Jewish Sabbath, under current circumstances Tel Aviv could not reasonably serve as an international hub. However, despite being called the “Middle East” (a function of the way Europeans saw Europe as the center of the world at the time terms like this were devised) the region in which Tel Aviv is located is very much at a convenient geographic center of international aviation as illustrated by the success of hubs such as Dubai. (By the way, it is the centralized geographic location of the “Middle East” that in some ways accounts for it also being the center of many of the major political disputes in the world today.) Like Dubai Tel Aviv could serve as a central hub for flights between Europe and the Far East and Australasia. Yet Tel Aviv’s more westerly location would make it a better hub for flights between Europe and Africa than hubs on the Arabian peninsula. So, if the political situation between Israel and its neighbors were to be resolved, would Tel Aviv be poised to serve as an international hub? Would any airlines not constrained by El Al’s no-fly policy on the Jewish Sabbath take advantage of Tel Aviv’s location? Any thoughts?

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4239 times:



Quoting PacNWjet (Thread starter):
So, if the political situation between Israel and its neighbors were to be resolved

That is one huge IF. Even still, there would be problems with non-neighbour Arab countries. I think this boat has sailed. There is a Middle East hub now and it's DXB and others already with full infrastructure.



B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlineVivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

There might also be problems with people of some nationalities transiting through Israel.

Are there any airlines that currently use TLV as a transit point/stopover?

- Vivek


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4065 times:



Quoting Vivekman2006 (Reply 2):
There might also be problems with people of some nationalities transiting through Israel.

Are there any airlines that currently use TLV as a transit point/stopover?

No, for EL AL TLV is used to bring passengers from A to B and vice versa and also on LY's point they are barely used as feeder airline for pasengers just as a airline to travel from A to B and back.

No foreign airline uses TLV as a hub just as a starting point or ending point of a journey for a passenger. Airlines such as LH, LX, BA, IB and OS use their TLV route as a feeder flight to their hubs and from there passengers fly to various points all over the world.

At the moment TLV is not in a position to be a hub, if and if only the only destination passengers havve conecting flights too are Eilat, the israeli red sea resort. But otherwise people begin or end their journey at TLV. Another exception might be AMM I saw already a few times passengers connecting in TLV to airlines such as LX, LH etc but only a couple of times or so. It doesn't make a lot of sense as there are no codeshare agreements or anything so u might as well fly from AMM directly to somewhere is also less of a hastle with security etc.


User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3994 times:



Quoting LXA340 (Reply 3):


Quoting Vivekman2006 (Reply 2):
There might also be problems with people of some nationalities transiting through Israel.

Are there any airlines that currently use TLV as a transit point/stopover?

No, for EL AL TLV is used to bring passengers from A to B and vice versa and also on LY's point they are barely used as feeder airline for pasengers just as a airline to travel from A to B and back.

No foreign airline uses TLV as a hub just as a starting point or ending point of a journey for a passenger. Airlines such as LH, LX, BA, IB and OS use their TLV route as a feeder flight to their hubs and from there passengers fly to various points all over the world.

At the moment TLV is not in a position to be a hub, if and if only the only destination passengers havve conecting flights too are Eilat, the israeli red sea resort. But otherwise people begin or end their journey at TLV. Another exception might be AMM I saw already a few times passengers connecting in TLV to airlines such as LX, LH etc but only a couple of times or so. It doesn't make a lot of sense as there are no codeshare agreements or anything so u might as well fly from AMM directly to somewhere is also less of a hastle with security etc.

The connecting from Amman is a very situation. I know RJ has been agressivaly promoting JFK-AMM-TLV and it has finally started to work. I know of many Israelis transferring through Amman as usually there tickets are much cheaper to Tel Aviv than most airlines.

But, People flying to TLV from Amman to connect to LH, LX and other carriers does not make any sense. As LH, AF, TY not to mention RJ is OW and could connect passengers through LHR without a problem.

Am I missing something?


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4366 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

There are many airports like DBX trying for that role in the Mediterranean, like IST, ATH. I can even see AYT, LCA, BEY next to TLV on that list.

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Can you buy a ticket from Russia or Kazakstan or eastern europe to Africa via TLV on LY? IF someone was going from there to say JNB, TLV would be a good connection point

User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4366 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3647 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 6):
Can you buy a ticket from Russia or Kazakstan or eastern europe to Africa via TLV on LY? IF someone was going from there to say JNB, TLV would be a good connection point

Through its IST hub, TK offers connections from:

GYD Baku
ASB
DYU Dushanbe
TAS
FRU Bishkek
ALA Almaty
TSE Astana
ROV
SIP
DOK Donetsk
DNK
ODS
KIV
KBP
MSQ
SVO
KZN Kazan
SVX
LED
RIX
and soon to be added Ufa and Samara (Russia)

to some central/southern African destinations like:

ADD
KRT Khartoom
SAH Sanaa
LOS
JNB/CPT

I don't know how extensive LYs coverage is with similar destinations, just wanted to show what is out there.


User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

The very tight security screening process would be overwhelming with a lot of connecting passengers. They can support it now because they have a relatively small number of flights, but add the extra flights & passengers a hub brings, and it would be a challenge. I don't know though; maybe connecting passengers are subject to a less rigorous process.

-TLG


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

I don't see it happening any time in the future (and forget for a second all the political problems) because of a very simple reason: the airport is too small for that and it doesn't have space to grow up.
Already today there are more and more calls in Israel to build another international airport in southern or northern Israel to release the pressure from TLV. You can't add runways in TLV (and their triangle shape makes operation more difficult) so I can't see it as a hub.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3292 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 9):
don't see it happening any time in the future (and forget for a second all the political problems) because of a very simple reason: the airport is too small for that and it doesn't have space to grow up.
Already today there are more and more calls in Israel to build another international airport in southern or northern Israel to release the pressure from TLV. You can't add runways in TLV (and their triangle shape makes operation more difficult) so I can't see it as a hub.

The airport area has a lot of space, I personally think it is not used very vwisely. Also the construction of the new terminal did not use too much logic, a modern airport should now have 2 jet bridges per gate, due to the fact that a lot of gates were squeezed in this was not possible. There is a lot of space in the area of where the new terminal was created why was everything constructed so cramped? What the Airport needs is a paralel runway system or at least work out a smarter system with the current runways. For instance by making little changes to the 08 runway and have take offs from this runway and arrivals on 12. Which would enable a parallel operation of arrivals and departures and also it is a shorter distance to taxi for take off. Then it is rediculous to wait at Runway 26 or 30 up to 20 mins to depart due to arrival traffic.


User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

The main problem is that an aircraft leaving TLV, cannot fly over Arab countries.
Just like now, all LY flight to Fareast are about 3 hours longer than they would have been if LY was allowed to fly direct. This has been discussed here many times.

Adding 3 hours to a flight, especially at today's fuel cost makes turing TLV into a hub almost impossible.

It does surprise me though that LY doesnt try to market at all any connecting travle via TLV. They would probably be able to sell a few tickets on EUROPE/US - TLV - BOM/JNB and vice versa beacuse of the Diamond Trade.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

I don't see it ever happen for four reasons..
1) security concerns tied to very thorough check-in procedures and requesting special check-in areas at departing airports
2) EL AL is not really a hub-feeding operation and tariffs are non-competive with neighbouring
hub op's like Dubai,Istanbul,Abu Dhabi or Qatar (for flights from USA/Europe into Asia /Pacific )
3) Not enough Asian destinations and poor feeder-network into TLV from EL AL.
4) Arabs and some Asian clients most likely reluctant to transit via TLV for evident political reasons..

[Edited 2008-06-15 06:55:26]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1287 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3243 times:



Quoting PacNWjet (Thread starter):
Tel Aviv As A Hub?

I do not think so.
First and foremost, All flight departing Israel can't fly over most arab countries, so every flight from Israel to the far East takes about 3 hours more then normal flight, as been already said. So most of the connection market, which is from Europe to the far east, can't really use Tel Aviv as an hub.
Regarding flights to Africa: first, not so many people are flying to Africa. Second, not all African Nations has relations with Israel. The only regular like between Israel and Africa is the TLV-JNB flight, offered once a week with old B767-200ER. I can't really see this one flight as an alternative to the large range of destinations offered by airlines such as Air France or British Airways. One more thing to be said, the South African government and Israel are not in good relations, and a good example is the cancellation of SAA's line to TLV. Israel's good relations with South Africa's Apartheid government does its own.
In addition, El Al, Israel's leading airline, promoting itself as the airline of Israel, and nothing but Israel ("It's not just an Airline, It's Israel" or "El Al, the airline of Israel"). Not to many people consider El Al as a true airline for connection, but only as an airline if you want to fly to/from Israel. Once LY would like to make a new image of itself as an International airline (like EasyJet or Lufthansa) they will have a lot of work to do.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

LXA340, Amirs, Beaucaire and EL-AL,

You are all missing a very important point.
PacNWjet (thread starter) doesn't talk about today. On the contrary, he says that in the present situation turning TLV into a hub can NOT happen.
He said that if or when the almost impossible thing happens and the ME will be like Switzerland, then …
It is a very theoretical discussion.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 10):
The airport area has a lot of space, I personally think it is not used very vwisely. Also the construction of the new terminal did not use too much logic, a modern airport should now have 2 jet bridges per gate, due to the fact that a lot of gates were squeezed in this was not possible. There is a lot of space in the area of where the new terminal was created why was everything constructed so cramped? What the Airport needs is a paralel runway system or at least work out a smarter system with the current runways. For instance by making little changes to the 08 runway and have take offs from this runway and arrivals on 12. Which would enable a parallel operation of arrivals and departures and also it is a shorter distance to taxi for take off. Then it is rediculous to wait at Runway 26 or 30 up to 20 mins to depart due to arrival traffic.

TLV area is small but you right. Things were supposed to be different. I remember a program on TV just after the government approved the T3 planning (early 90's).
An aviation specialist said it was almost the worst option to choose.
The location of T3 will prevent paving a parallel runway to RW26 (when the T3 was supposed to between them). He also had "good" things to say about the shape of T3.
But, today the configuration of TLV is a fact. Paving a new runway is impossible (and even if it was possible, I believe there would be a huge objection).
So in this condition, I don't see TLV turning into a hub (ignoring everything around us).



Long live the B747
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3161 times:

Sorry,
Double post.

[Edited 2008-06-15 08:13:54]


Long live the B747
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Even if the Middle East conflict were resolved, it is unlikely that TLV would emerge as a hub. I think Beaucaire is correct that few Arabs, Pakistanis, Malaysians, or Indonesians would fly through TLV on their way to Europe or North America even if Israel and all its neighbors signed peace treaties. The peace would be cold for decades, and there would be little traffic between Israel and Arab countries and Moslem countries in Asia. ME, RB, SV, KU, EK, QR, GF and other Arab airlines probably would not fly to TLV. At most, TU or AT may consider flying to TLV. Israeli airlines would not fly to many destinations in Arab countries because there would not be enough demand to make such flights profitable.

However, flights to and from TLV could overfly Arab countries. Some airlines such as SQ, AI, CX, and KE may finally start or resume flights to TLV. Flights between TLV and a few new destinations in Asia, such as PVG, NRT, DEL, BLR, and SIN, may be added. However, it is unlikely that TLV would have flights to as many destinations in Asia or Oceania as DXB. Also, peace may mean more flights to east or southern Africa. TLV-NBO flights would probably resume.


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2955 times:



Quoting IAD380 (Reply 16):
Even if the Middle East conflict were resolved, it is unlikely that TLV would emerge as a hub. I think Beaucaire is correct that few Arabs, Pakistanis, Malaysians, or Indonesians would fly through TLV on their way to Europe or North America even if Israel and all its neighbors signed peace treaties.

On the other hand don't forget that Jerusalem is very important place for the Muslims so if they have the option to come, I believe they will come (there is a huge potential here).
In this case we really will need another international airport beside TLV.



Long live the B747
User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2852 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 14):
You are all missing a very important point. PacNWjet (thread starter) doesn't talk about today.

Thanks for reiterating that point. Obviously the current political animosities make it impossible for Tel Aviv to serve as a hub, and future relations among states in the region may be tense even if a peace is negotiated. On the other hand, few if any scholars predicted the rapid end of the Cold War and the new political realities of Europe, so nothing is ever impossible. If Israel and its neighbors (as well as the rest of the Muslim and Arab world) were to resolve the present disputes it is not too hard to imagine a sort of Middle East Renaissance that would rival the harmonious relations between Jews and Muslims that prevailed on the Iberian Peninsula before the Christian Reconquest. If that ever did happen, Tel Aviv's strategic geographic location for international air travel could not be denied. My point in my initial post was not to suggest that TLV get its act in order today. It was only to observe that from a geographic point of view it is a shame that Tel Aviv's hub potential is not profitably exploited.


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1287 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2747 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 14):
The location of T3 will prevent paving a parallel runway to RW26

TLV has today 2 active ruways and one not active, I think a hub can work with that number of runways. Someone said LHR?



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

I was at Ben Gurion Airport yesterday, and it remains one of the greatest airports in the world. It's spacious, calm, the staff are friendly, and it's spotless.

Perhaps 10 years ago, El Al did try to market flights from the USA to China, Kenya, and Thailand by way of Israel. This never really caught on. And there was a law suit involving a Chinese woman who was either denied boarding, or given exceptionally thorough security screening, and I think she sued El Al in the US.

As you disembark from an international flight at Terminal 3, there is--off to the right--a place for transfer passengers. I couldn't imagine where anyone would transfer TO other than Eilat, but those flights depart from a different terminal anyway.

El Al has dropped a lot of markets, so I think their ability to operate a hub has diminished even further. That said, they're still my favorite airline.


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2672 times:



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 19):

TLV has today 2 active ruways and one not active, I think a hub can work with that number of runways. Someone said LHR?

LHR has a parallel runway system that enables take offs rom one runway and arrivals from the other one. With the current system at TLV you can't have simultanious landings and departures. Which is very frustrating as especially during the afternoon rush hour of arrivals when you want to take off you can stand up to 20 mins in line until you can depart. There were a few near misses already with this system which is probably the worst option there is. Although TLV does not have a parallel runways system the current system has a lot of potential for imp'rovment and as mentioned above it would be possible to use 2 runways independantly simultnaiously for take offs and landings. A shame that no thoght is put into it, but unfortunately this is how many things are being done in Israel. A good example as mentioned is the location and the actual construction of T3, especially when consdering the Gates. The distance between gates is too little and only 1 finger dock per gate is also a big error for a newly built terminal especially because there would have been more than enough space available to make everything longer, larger, wider etc


User currently offlineFlyBaby From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Just a few interesting tidbits related to this topic...

Once SDV closes and given the current passenger trends at TLV, TLV could possibly overtake CAI as the second largest airport in terms of passengers in the far-eastern Mediterranean basin (AYT being the largest).

The fourth concourse to be built at TVL T3 will have multiple jetways per gate. TLV has no hope of ever serving the A380 without this configuration.

A plan has been approved to extend the length of the seldom-used runway 21/03 and put it into full commercial operation.


User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

A bit off topic but does anyone know what is the international to international minimum connecting time at TLV?

User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2336 times:



Quoting TK787 (Reply 5):
There are many airports like DBX trying for that role in the Mediterranean, like IST, ATH. I can even see AYT, LCA, BEY next to TLV on that list.

With the construction of a brand new state of the art terminal at LCA well underway (opens Nov 09), I could see the airport serving as a mini hub between Europe and the Middle East and Asia.

The problem is that CY are too small and inflexible (due to their ownership by government) to carry out such an operation. Unless, an external airline recognises the potential and starts investing into this.

ATH is a good example of missed opportunities as there was no major growth of connecting traffic after the construction of the new airport. I believe that this is mainly due to the current situation of OA and the termination of some of their popular long haul services (especially those to Australia).

A3 is undergoing major expansion at the moment but again for a hub to be meaningful at ATH they will need to start flying to more destinations to the East (only Cairo and LCA at the moment).



CY@Uk
25 LXA340 : And they MUST make a change to their current runways management then I am sure it is possible to have a multiple operating modus with take offs and l
26 FlyBaby : Today the IAA officially requested govt. approval to almost double the airport ticket tax, partially to fund the extension of 03/21 and for other upg
27 LXA340 : Tel Aviv is the bigest City in Israel and also economically this area is the most important in the ocuntry so incase we should see a new airport cons
28 FlyBaby : The reason you have to drive extra kilometers to get to T3 all has to do with politics. The IAA wanted to build an interchange directly on Highway 1
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