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Rumor--AA Retiring 18 A300's  
User currently offlineSkygypsy From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 25 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9187 times:

Heard this today...talk in the galley that 18 A300's are going, haven't read it anywhere. Anyone else know?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12519 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9167 times:

It has been said by AA that some A300s would be retired and it's also been reported that the MIA base would lose some. The A300 is probably a rational target in that the acft can be sold for conversion to freighter configuration.

User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2294 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9059 times:

Speculation on the line is 13. Three are already scheduled to be returned to their lessors and an additional ten are owned by AA, which could quickly be sold to FedEx, UPS or DHL. I have also heard that some leases on the AB6s are directly with Airbus and the terms of those agreements allow AA to dump them at any time. I don't know much more about that front, but for sure AA could dump 13 this year without parking any.


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User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9051 times:



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 2):
I don't know much more about that front, but for sure AA could dump 13 this year without parking any.

Yep. But if the Airbus lease statement is correct, then they could dump more than 13, or dump all Airbus leased birds plus the 3 expiring, and keep some of the owned A300s for a bit longer. After all, you can't convert 10 A300s to F models at one time, the companies that do it have to have time to convert them, so why pay a lease that you can get out of and park owned aircraft if you can do the reverse?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8944 times:

Well, eventually they'll all go, obviously. And I could potentially see the rumors ramping up now that AA is going to have plenty of spare 767 capacity come fall, with several longhaul routes dropped.

However, I would field a guess that we won't see quite so many buses - 13 or 18 - leave quite so quickly, for two reasons:

1) Even with the spare 767 capacity, there isn't enough to make up for 13 or 18 buses, and it would take even more severe cuts to the Caribbean and Latin America than already announced to make up for that difference

2) Given AA's aversion to operating small fleets and/or subfleets, I doubt that AA would park 18 more A300s, and thus get down to a total of only 13 operational, and not just park all of them. If they were going to park that many, it would seem to me they would just go ahead and park them all.

Then again, they have kept a fleet of just 15 762s operational for JFK-LAX/SFO. That aircraft has a very unique niche market profile (high-yield, low-density) that it serves perfectly, as does the A300 (low-yield, high-density, cargo-intensive), so I suppose we'll just have to wait and see...


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8938 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
1) Even with the spare 767 capacity, there isn't enough to make up for 13 or 18 buses, and it would take even more severe cuts to the Caribbean and Latin America than already announced to make up for that difference

But they seem to be subbing 757s for A300s as well in the caribbean, so that would cover it. The 757s come from reduced domestic flying…



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33039 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8832 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
But they seem to be subbing 757s for A300s as well in the caribbean, so that would cover it. The 757s come from reduced domestic flying…

Though some Central America/Caribbean routes from MIA, like PTY and PUJ, are seeing 757s replaced by A300s.



a.
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12633 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8700 times:
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Research shows that just 4 of AA's A300s are leased (from GECAS).

The majority of the rest are owned, according to the FAA register, by "Wilmington Trust Co", with a few owned by "AFS Investments Inc".

Certainly, none are leased from Airbus. no 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineKogge From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8496 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
with a few owned by "AFS Investments Inc".

Doesnt AFS stand for Airbus Financial Service ?
How many are registered to them ?



Flown in Caravelle, Coronado, Friendship, Fellowship, Herald, Heron, One-Eleven, Trident, Viscount & others
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12633 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8355 times:
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Quoting Kogge (Reply 8):
Doesnt AFS stand for Airbus Financial Service ?

No, it seems to be Aviation Financial Services Inc, 201 High Ridge Rd, Stamford CT.

They have a diverse portfolio of planes on their books (it looks like they set up spearate companies for each lease schedule).
http://www.aircraftone.com/aircraft/...egistrations/stamford-ct-06927.asp

Here's one of their leases:
http://library.consusgroup.com/library_pvw/169/169074.asp

Quoting Kogge (Reply 8):
How many are registered to them ?

Of AA's 34 A300s
18 are owned by Wilimington Trust Co
4 are owned by AFS Inc
2 are owned by GE

The remaining 10 are owned by AA themselves.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1896 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8145 times:

Interesting. This has been longed expected, however it might affect routes such as CCS that desperately need seating or more frequencies which we all know is impossible...

Currently they fly to CCS with 2x A300s and 2x 757s... If this does happen, then I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple 763s down there!



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10764 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8112 times:



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 2):
The A300 is probably a rational target in that the acft can be sold for conversion to freighter configuration.

Aren´t most of them high-cycle aircarft from the late 80s? They can´t have too much life in them anymore. Would it justify F-conversion?


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8082 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
Given AA's aversion to operating small fleets and/or subfleets, I doubt that AA would park 18 more A300s, and thus get down to a total of only 13 operational, and not just park all of them. If they were going to park that many, it would seem to me they would just go ahead and park them all.

Many of AA's costs for the A300 were expensed long ago. Pilots, crews and mechanics were trained and spares purchased. Reducing the fleet by half wouldn't effect the cost side too much other then an early lease termination penalty.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12633 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7944 times:
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Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Aren´t most of them high-cycle aircarft from the late 80s?

I don't know about cycles, but their oldest A300 was delivered in 04/88 and the youngest in 02/93. However, the bulk were delivered in '88 and '89. The younger ones are the ones AA owns.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7829 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 12):
Many of AA's costs for the A300 were expensed long ago. Pilots, crews and mechanics were trained and spares purchased.

Those expenses were not one-off.

All of the expense for training, spares, maintenance, etc. are still being incurred on a continual basis.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7804 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
Research shows that just 4 of AA's A300s are leased (from GECAS).

The majority of the rest are owned, according to the FAA register, by "Wilmington Trust Co", with a few owned by "AFS Investments Inc".



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 9):
No, it seems to be Aviation Financial Services Inc, 201 High Ridge Rd, Stamford CT.

They have a diverse portfolio of planes on their books (it looks like they set up spearate companies for each lease schedule).

Pretty good detective work...now Google "201 high ridge road stamford ct" and see whose offices are there...

FYI, Wilmington Trust (along with Wells Fargo, US Bank and others) typically acts as "Owner Trustee" on behalf of the real beneficial owner of an aircraft (who may or may not meet US citizenship requirements) for US registration purposes. So it could be Airbus, could be anybody really.

Welcome to the world of aircraft leasing!

[Edited 2008-06-13 05:59:09]


Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5920 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 9):
Quoting Kogge (Reply 8):
Doesnt AFS stand for Airbus Financial Service ?

No, it seems to be Aviation Financial Services Inc, 201 High Ridge Rd, Stamford CT.

AFS is GECAS.
Extract from a lease contract:
"AFS Investments XVI LLC, a limited liability company formed under the laws of Delaware and an indirect wholly-owned subsidiary of General Electric Capital Corporation, a Delaware corporation ("GECC"), having its principal place of business at c/o GE Capital Aviation Services, Inc., 201 High Ridge Road, Stamford, Connecticut 06927 ("Lessor");..."


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5847 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
Research shows that just 4 of AA's A300s are leased (from GECAS).

no, the 24 not owned are operating leased to AA. who owns them and is leasing them out is not relevant. this is common knowledge available from AA's annual reports.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5447 times:

According to AMR last Financial Report; (3) A300s are leaving 2008, (3) 2009, (9) 2010, (9) 2011, no mention of the 10 A300s that they own...unless there was a change or the rumor sources are more accurate.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5339 times:



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 18):
no mention of the 10 A300s that they own...unless there was a change or the rumor sources are more accurate.

the last annual report is now ancient history. an 8-K filed recently talked of additional retirements. it doesn't break down the numbers, only saying most would be MD80s and some would be A300s.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....aXBhZ2U9NTY4NzExOCZhdHRhY2g9T04%3d



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSuper Em From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4344 times:

Will cargo suffer as a result? I know AA cargo does pretty good on the A300 routes.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4154 times:



Quoting Super Em (Reply 20):
Will cargo suffer as a result? I know AA cargo does pretty good on the A300 routes.

My guess, and it's only a guess, that with food prices being what they are and fuel prices being what they are, demand for air cargo from the caribbean is down as well, as it's too expensive. But I don't have a source, just a guess based on the current world economic climate.

A 757 has 1670 cf of cargo room, 1/2 of the A306. The A306 does carry 50% more pax, losing some of that advantage to luggage. In this climate, you can assume an average of 1 piece of 4 cf luggage per person, not counting paid luggage (which is revenue). So on a 757, that's about 900 cu feet of revenue cargo space, and on the A306, it's 2200 cu ft.

BTW - Airbus makes this claim on the A300 page: "The most reliable jet in airliner service today, the A300-600 is the benchmark for operating economy in the mid-size aircraft category."

In comparison to what? A DC-10?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7505 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

I feel for the gate agents in MIA and JFK when the Hatians to PAP show up with everything but the kitchen sink,every thing that they have brought along before and now they can't . Ought to be interesting ........


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5498 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Going to make sitting at the holes in MIA a lot less interesting with a constant line of 737/757's taxiing out.

User currently offlineAJMIA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 733 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

There must be an announcement for an A300 replacement aircraft order coming soon. Right?

I can't believe they would retire them all without something like the 787 to replace them.

AJMIA



Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
25 SXDFC : Or maybe a separate fleet of 777's that will fly the routes the A300's have? the 777's would certainly help on the cargo aspect!
26 PRAirbus : Too expensive to replace an A300 for a 777 on medium haul sectors or even Caribbean...it ain't gonna happen. 787 not until something is settled w/the
27 Ikramerica : 787s would replace 767s, newer 767s and 757s are/will take over A300 routes. We can see that move beginning. 767s can take their own LD2 containers,
28 TrijetsRMissed : This was inevitable, although I thought AA might hang on to them for a little while longer, given there is no direct replacement available. But with f
29 Captaink : POS currently sees 763 from MIA, so it wouln't be surprising to see the 767 on select caribbean routes.
30 PRAirbus : How's everyone so sure AA would replace A300s w/787s? I doubt that is on their present plans especially with the things on their plate (oil price, lab
31 Jfk777 : A300 can only get replaced by 767 because that is the plane AA hs available. 787 would be used for Atlantic or ASian flights, not great A300 replaceme
32 MAH4546 : The short range 787-3 with smaller wings is an excellent A300 replacement.
33 Ikramerica : Exactly. It's the trickle down approach to fleet reqlacement. 787s replace 763ER on most 763ER routes. Older 763s retire. Younger 763s replace A300s
34 MAH4546 : JFK, maybe not, but come fall the only JFK-Caribbean A300 flying is San Juan. From Miami, there shouldn't be any problems.
35 Ikramerica : Yes, but AA is not going to buy a plane that is only good from MIA, but would struggle from DFW and JFK and ORD. They would much rather have the vers
36 Airbazar : Sizewise maybe but from a performance perspective the 783 is just as efficient as the 30 year old A300. That's one reason why no one has actually ord
37 Gilesdavies : Maybe Monarch Airlines might pick up a few to add to the 6 they have in their fleet while they await the delayed delivery of the 787's they have on or
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