Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Taca Landing Accident In Honduras Part 2.  
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

With the first thread now over 300 posts, this is the thread in which to continue the discussion.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4508 times:

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 209):
Well, you can discount the two passenger statements. Those are almost always 100% wrong

In spite of the fact that these were made by frequent business travelers who have probably landed there countless times, while ocassionally looking out the window? They could've in fact been able to discern there was something odd this particular time.


No. Frequent travelers are just as unreliable as witnesses. Eye witness statements by anyone but a subject matter expert it notoriously unreliable, and this isn't only true of aviation.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Eye witnesses, passengers are always asked to speak to investigators, and their testimony is likely invaluable. There is a whole science out there as to what eye witnesses are good at, and what they are not. Investigators know how to use their information.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4454 times:



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 2):
Eye witnesses, passengers are always asked to speak to investigators, and their testimony is likely invaluable. There is a whole science out there as to what eye witnesses are good at, and what they are not. Investigators know how to use their information.

Agreed. Also if you get 100 witness statements you're likely to find the truth in there somewhere by weighing what all of them have said.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineViaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2147 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4221 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Frequent travelers are just as unreliable as witnesses. Eye witness statements by anyone but a subject matter expert it (sic) notoriously unreliable

I have to disagree with such a broad generalization. There was one pax on board the doomed TACA flight who was quoted by a number of media outlets as saying: "The pilot tried to land the first time but couldn't. On the second attempt, I noticed the airplane touched down right in front of the passenger terminal, a sign that he had already flown too far along the runway."

These remarks were made by someone who holds an engineering degree from California State Polytechnic University, is a former Minister of Industry and Commerce and former Minister of Tourism during successive Honduran administrations, and was one of the founding partners of now-defunct Sol Air/AeroHonduras.

So to dismiss this gentleman's eyewitness account altogether simply because he's no "subject matter expert" is just -putting it in mild terms- not entirely logical.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineCoa747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4149 times:



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 4):
These remarks were made by someone who holds an engineering degree from California State Polytechnic University, is a former Minister of Industry and Commerce and former Minister of Tourism during successive Honduran administrations, and was one of the founding partners of now-defunct Sol Air/AeroHonduras.

I have a Master's Degree in Safety Science from Embry-Riddle, and one of the things I learned from the accident classes I took as part of that program is that every accident witness sees the events through a filter. The engineer on the TACA flight is filtering the information based on what his experiences are. I woudl process the same set of events based on what I know about accidents and how airliners function. Some of the worst eyewitness historically are pilots, because they often tell investigators what they think happened based on there experience rather than what they actually saw. The best witnesses are often children, as they have less life experience and so do less filtering of information.

However you can't just discount eyewitness testimony. Several passengers on the American MD-80 Little Rock aircraft gave investigators a key piece of information, when they mentioned that the ground spoilers did not deploy.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4146 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 4):
founding partners of now-defunct Sol Air/AeroHonduras.



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 4):
no "subject matter expert" is just -putting it in mild terms- not entirely logical.

No - but you MIGHT claim that he is biased....



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineViaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2147 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4106 times:



Quoting Coa747 (Reply 5):
However you can't just discount eyewitness testimony. Several passengers on the American MD-80 Little Rock aircraft gave investigators a key piece of information, when they mentioned that the ground spoilers did not deploy.

Yet others here have unhesitatingly discounted his account and other analogous passenger statements all along, even though a truly thorough and independent investigation would likely validate their testimony.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4039 times:



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 7):
a truly thorough and independent investigation would likely validate their testimony.

Maybe owe you an apology, Viaggiare, about the doubts you expressed about the handling of the 'investigation.'

The investigators almost certainly have analyses of the FDR and CVR contents by now, and the testimony of the First Officer. They must already know, to pretty fine limits, the answers to most of the questions we're discussing - in particular whether it landed long, and whether the autobrakes/spoilers/reverse thrust worked normally.

But not a word has been said by anyone about those basic facts - whether in the form of 'leaks' or of progress reports or of press briefings by the investigators or the officials concerned.

It looks as if, for whatever reason, a very tight lid has been screwed down on any information at all, in any form. Makes you wonder why? Especially if, as most people seem to thiink, the facts indicate that the probable primary cause was pilot error, just a long downwind landing.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3966 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
But not a word has been said by anyone about those basic facts - whether in the form of 'leaks' or of progress reports or of press briefings by the investigators or the officials concerned.

Unfortunately, things like this is what defines the "Third World." I think that all Central Americans (me included) would have been more surprised of an efficient investigation than a this alleged cover-up. That's just the way it works.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Especially if, as most people seem to thiink, the facts indicate that the probable primary cause was pilot error, just a long downwind landing.

In my experience of being born and living in CA for most of my life - and placing myself in TACA's shoes - I think that regardless of what is reported, investigated, proven or simulated, the damage is done.

If the FAA would come and declare a simple "pilot error" people would question how much money TACA gave the FAA. Thats just how WE are.

They would be fighting a losing battle - so best to try to forget it ASAP and move on. Sad.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineViaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2147 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3808 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Maybe owe you an apology, Viaggiare, about the doubts you expressed about the handling of the 'investigation.'

Apology accepted, Tony. I appreciate your integrity.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
It looks as if, for whatever reason, a very tight lid has been screwed down on any information at all, in any form. Makes you wonder why?

Well, the show is, after all, being put on by El Salvador's Civil Aviation Authority (under delegation by the Government of Honduras). And so perhaps it would be useful to put this in its proper perspective and context...

TACA is controlled by the Kriete family (pretty high up the food chain, with additional interests in the tourism, banking and agro-industry sectors within El Salvador, and allied with Mexican group Carso, owned by Carlos Slim), who along with local groups Poma and Siman are closely linked to -and exert significant influence on- the Salvadoran political system. It's way too much leverage for that country's fragile institutions.

Just to give you a rough idea, it took CM (TACA's main competitor) three years for the Salvadoran Supreme Court to resolve its "temporary" suspension of their second daily flight between PTY and SAL. The magistrates had been extremely efficient, however, when TA filed its original last-minute appeal to thwart Copa's plans. The court's suspension order came less than a day before the flights were set to begin, despite the fact that it was the middle of high season, and all seats had been sold.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Especially if, as most people seem to think, the facts indicate that the probable primary cause was pilot error, just a long downwind landing.

Exactly. And I keep thinking that the ten-knot tailwind used in these estimations was a surface reading. What was the wind like some two-hundred to three-hundred feet agl over the hills to the south of rwy 02? ...12 knots? ...15 knots?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
I think that all Central Americans (me included) would have been more surprised of an efficient investigation than a this alleged cover-up. That's just the way it works.

Part of the blame falls on our business elites, under whom governmental corruption flourishes and people operate outside the law. This has a lot to do with the endemic poverty and backwardness that continues to plague LatAm and relegates it to third-world status.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3746 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
e investigators almost certainly have analyses of the FDR and CVR contents by now, and the testimony of the First Officer. They must already know, to pretty fine limits, the answers to most of the questions we're discussing - in particular whether it landed long, and whether the autobrakes/spoilers/reverse thrust worked normally.

An accident investigation takes months, if not years.
Only the findings that should entail an immediate operational application would be released, be it on airplane systems or dangerous operating procedures.
Anything else would be known when they release the "official" report(s).

With the number of agencies that are involved in this investigation, I really doubt that the airline owners, be they as powerful as Viaggiare says, could prevent the findings to be made public.
What will then happen is -as these accidents involving Egyptian airlines - that some disagreements as to the conclusions will be made official...and the law courts in Europe or the USA will have their field days...(and by the way, I have no knowledge of the nationality of the passengers).

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
If the FAA would come and declare a simple "pilot error" people would question how much money TACA gave the FAA. Thats just how WE are.

The FAA has nothing to do with the investigation, the NTSB does.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Especially if, as most people seem to thiink, the facts indicate that the probable primary cause was pilot error, just a long downwind landing.

In my dictionary, that wasn't pilot error but probably a wrong decision associated to bad landing technique in marginal weather and runway state.
The numbers that Mandala and I have calculated should have been available to that crew and been just like a series of red flags with a big " Do not Attempt a landing in these conditions" sign....but we weren't in that flight deck so have no right to a judgement of value.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3698 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):

The FAA has nothing to do with the investigation, the NTSB does.

Thanks.. LOL.. good catch!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
In my dictionary, that wasn't pilot error but probably a wrong decision associated to bad landing technique in marginal weather and runway state.

Isnt that just semantics?

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 10):
Part of the blame falls on our business elites, under whom governmental corruption flourishes and people operate outside the law. This has a lot to do with the endemic poverty and backwardness that continues to plague LatAm and relegates it to third-world status.

I agree with you 100%. It is an endemic self-perpetuating cycle. The root of it - its just basic lack of education.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 10):
TACA is controlled by the Kriete family (pretty high up the food chain, with additional interests in the tourism, banking and agro-industry sectors within El Salvador, and allied with Mexican group Carso, owned by Carlos Slim), who along with local groups Poma and Siman are closely linked to -and exert significant influence on- the Salvadoran political system. It's way too much leverage for that country's fragile institutions.

No doubt about it. I am sure that Costa Rica has its equivalent economic influence groups...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3690 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
In my dictionary, that wasn't pilot error but probably a wrong decision associated to bad landing technique in marginal weather and runway state.

Greetings, Pihero!

First of all, how is the above not 'pilot error'?

Secondly - if that HAS been established as the primary cause - why haven't the investigators already said so?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3654 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
Isnt that just semantics?



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):
First of all, how is the above not 'pilot error'?

An error is made when a pilot misreads the immediate conditions he's flying in and acts according to that initial mistake : for instance an erroneous navigation fix that leads to a mountain side.
This is not - patently - the case : knowing one's landing tailwind limit of *less than five knots* and then electing to continue with multiple advisory messages from the control tower as to the 10 kt value of the tailwind is NOT an error. My knowledge of the English doesn't allow me to qualify it more accurately.  Wink

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):
Secondly - if that HAS been established as the primary cause - why haven't the investigators already said so?

Because accident investigators generally want to cover everything and every aspect of an accident or they'd be taken to the courts of public opinion.

I say it again : They have a pretty good idea of what happened in that accident and the fact that there has been no operational recommendations issued,be they on system operation or on SOPs lead me to believe that it's a human factor related event.
For those comparing it with the swiftness of the TAM in Congonhas details, the public/political situation was different and there was a major item on the aircraft utilisation.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineCoa747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

I don't think it is as simple as pilot error. Accidents are rarely that simple. There are usually lots of contributing factors. There is no possible way for us to even know at this point that it was pilot error. In any case the airport environment in this case has to be a contributing factor. This approach in the best of conditions involves a high pilot workload and is very demanding, throw in bad weather and it gets even more interesting. The runway length doesn't leave much room for error. I would caution anyone about jumping to conclusions. We are talking about a decision window of a couple of seconds. It is easy for us to say looking back that the pilot should have aborted the landing or gone around but none of us was faced with making that split second decision.

User currently offlineViaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2147 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3522 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
No doubt about it. I am sure that Costa Rica has its equivalent economic influence groups...

It's foreign multinationals we're up against down here, not homegrown capital. And despite growing inequalities in wealth over the last couple of decades, ours remains pretty much a middle-class democracy. Unlike the rest of CentAm, this country's post-colonial development was based on agrarian farmers, not a feudal hacienda system controlled by an aristocracy with large tracts of land and supported by a repressive apparatus. Nowhere else was this more apparent than in El Salvador, where fourteen families (of which eight made it through the ten-year civil war) owned most of that country’s wealth.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):

An error is made when a pilot misreads the immediate conditions he's flying in and acts according to that initial mistake : for instance an erroneous navigation fix that leads to a mountain side.
This is not - patently - the case : knowing one's landing tailwind limit of *less than five knots* and then electing to continue with multiple advisory messages from the control tower as to the 10 kt value of the tailwind is NOT an error. My knowledge of the English doesn't allow me to qualify it more accurately.

Presumably the point you're trying to make is that there's a big difference between pilot error (e.g., unaware of ten-knot tailwind) and pilot boldness (e.g., disregarded ten-knot tailwind).



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3477 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 16):
Presumably the point you're trying to make is that there's a big difference between pilot error (e.g., unaware of ten-knot tailwind) and pilot boldness (e.g., disregarded ten-knot tailwind).

Yes, boldness is one wored I would use, viaggiare.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1254 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Someone in the previous thread was talking about the apparent lack of flight attendants.

If you watch this YouTube video of the evacuation, at the 2+02 mark, I think I see one of the male F/As. Red tie, crew-like uniform with rank-sleeve stripes, airline-style ID, standing just forward of the leading edge of the left wing - probably in complete shock...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqhkImkDgbA

RIP...



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3236 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 16):

It's foreign multinationals we're up against down here, not homegrown capital.

Ahhh!! Now i understand your issue with this. Unfortunately this is not the forum to discuss it. But now i understand were you are coming from. "up against" huh? very very interesting...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineViaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2147 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3146 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 19):
"up against" huh? very very interesting...

Yes, "up against" as in being threatened by large multinational corporations -whose budgets far exceed the gdp of my country- in terms of our sovereignty and natural resources.

But for all their greed, these global corporate behemoths do have a clear interest in safeguarding our internal democratic process, in order to protect their long-term interests.

Things are quite different in El Salvador, where the above-mentioned eight families control the ruling party outright, as well as the leading mass media outlets. In other words, all political decisions and media coverage are effectively aligned with those particular business interests.

Hopefully this will further clarify -to those unfamiliar with life in these tropical lands or who otherwise in good faith might have been at a loss- why it is I said TACA is one of a handful of untouchable interests in Salvadoran society, a sad fact that becomes all the more relevant as we all patiently await the outcome of the TA390 investigation.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AMC Airlines In Landing Accident At IST posted Thu Oct 11 2007 10:39:03 by Kaitak
"Exciting" Landing In Honduras posted Sun Jun 3 2007 19:53:56 by Wannabe
Insane Landing In Honduras.. posted Wed May 23 2007 03:04:34 by PC12Fan
Ariana In Landing Accident At Istanbul 23/03/07 posted Fri Mar 23 2007 15:51:52 by Aviamil
Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident posted Thu Dec 28 2006 16:22:42 by Flying-Tiger
Taca 110 737 "Crash Landing" In New Orleans posted Mon Nov 15 2004 03:52:49 by TriJetFan1
AA Fokker 100 In Landing Accident Will Be Retired posted Sat Jun 30 2001 02:33:11 by Tupolev154B2
CO Mike 727F In Landing Accident? posted Wed Mar 14 2001 22:14:38 by Kaitak
Latest SV Incident (belly-landing M90 In Tabook) posted Thu May 8 2008 06:42:13 by QatarA340
Bad Cititation III Accident In Venezuela posted Wed Feb 20 2008 09:50:56 by YULspotter