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Pan Am 747 JFK-DFW-HNL In 1977  
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 453 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5667 times:
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This was 1x weekly flight (Westbound on mondays, throughout 1977), obviously with no local traffic rights for the JFK-DFW leg. Sometimes or initially operated with a Y-class only 707.

The flight continued on to Pago Pago, Papeete, and provided connections at Honolulu to Guam, Okinawa, and Taipei.

Any memories or pictures from Dallasites or anyone would be greatly appreciated.

DFW was spanking new at the time, with Braniff operating a handful of 747s (incidentally also on DFW-HNL)

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Why would Pan Am have traffic rights on DFW-HNL but not JFK-DFW?


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineJFKPurser From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5246 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 1):
Why would Pan Am have traffic rights on DFW-HNL but not JFK-DFW?

Because, prior to deregulation in 1978, PA was prohibited from carrying any passengers (not travelling onward on the same international flight number or other PA international flight) on any US domestic city pairing they operated. HNL was the exception -- they had authority to carry local traffic between US mainland cities and HNL.

If, for example, PA1 operated SFO-JFK-LHR etc., a passenger could travel on PA1 from SFO and connect at JFK to another international destination on PA only. This would have been the only time PA was permitted to transport a passenger on PA between two US cities on a ticketed routing with different flight numbers.

TWA was not subject to this restriction and was allowed to operate both US domestic and International structures that fed each other freely.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5167 times:



Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 2):
Quoting Ssides (Reply 1):
Why would Pan Am have traffic rights on DFW-HNL but not JFK-DFW?

Because, prior to deregulation in 1978, PA was prohibited from carrying any passengers (not travelling onward on the same international flight number or other PA international flight) on any US domestic city pairing they operated. HNL was the exception -- they had authority to carry local traffic between US mainland cities and HNL.

Not just HNL. PA also had local traffic rights to/from Alaska and Puerto Rico.


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5020 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Not just HNL. PA also had local traffic rights to/from Alaska and Puerto Rico.

Correct. Also, starting in July 1962, Pan Am equipment operated one-plane interchange service between Texas (DAL & HOU) and Chicago (O'Hare), then on to LHR, and FRA, in cooperation with Braniff Airways. A similiar agreement was in place with Delta on the IAD-ATL-MSY interchange service.

A Braniff cabin crew and flight deck crew would take over for ORD-DAL-HOU (and v.v.). This allowed PA to market the flight number as same-plane though-service from Europe to Texas, effectively by-passing the domestic restriction that was in place at the time.

That is also why you will find pictures in the database of Delta planes at Heathrow in the late 1960's and early 1970s, and Pan Am 707s at Love Field and Hobby airports. Or a Pan Am 747 at ATL. for instance.

Interchange service agreements were a kind of forerunner of today's code-shared flights, main difference however being that crews were switched-out (or rather "exchanged") entirely on a specific flight segment, allowing both cooperating airlines to market the flight as same-plane service.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4953 times:



Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 4):
Correct. Also, starting in July 1962, Pan Am equipment operated one-plane interchange service between Texas (DAL & HOU) and Chicago (O'Hare), then on to LHR, and FRA, in cooperation with Braniff Airways. A similiar agreement was in place with Delta on the IAD-ATL-MSY interchange service.

A Braniff cabin crew and flight deck crew would take over for ORD-DAL-HOU (and v.v.). This allowed PA to market the flight number as same-plane though-service from Europe to Texas, effectively by-passing the domestic restriction that was in place at the time.

Wow. And some people want to return to this crazy regulated era!



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 844 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4812 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 5):
Wow. And some people want to return to this crazy regulated era!

At least there were only 2 flight numbers listed on the display screen! Look at things know, you have to wait 5 minutes for the original flight number to cycle through on the screen!


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4735 times:



Quoting BOAC911 (Thread starter):
This was 1x weekly flight (Westbound on mondays, throughout 1977), obviously with no local traffic rights for the JFK-DFW leg. Sometimes or initially operated with a Y-class only 707.

The flight continued on to Pago Pago, Papeete, and provided connections at Honolulu to Guam, Okinawa, and Taipei.

PA's DFW-HNL authority was originally awarded to AA in 1969, along with ORD/JFK/DTW/BOS/STL/IAD - HNL, and HNL-American Samoa / Fiji/Auckland / Sydney / Melbourne.

American's authority from the US Mainland to Hawaii required that one of every two US Mainland - Hawaii flights had to continue on to Australia or New Zealand. The exception was St Louis - Honolulu, which had no restrictions. The Australian and New Zealand governments only gave AA enough frequencies to fly 3x week to Auckland, and 5x week to Sydney and Melbourne.

The limited frequencies AA was given by the Australian and New Zealand governments effectively limited AA to two US Mainland - Honolulu flights a day, one of which could continue to either AKL or SYD / MEL, plus a third flight, St Louis, that was unrestricted. AA chose to fly JFK-HNL and DTW-ORD-HNL, plus the unrestricted STL flight, which originated in BOS, and deferred starting DFW or IAD pending (1) getting additional frequencies from Australia and / or New Zealand, or (2) having the "turn around" restriction lifted. All flights were operated with Boeing 707-323s.

AA consistently lost money on their South Pacific operation, given the heavy restrictions placed upon them. AA attempted to purchase Western Airlines in 1971, in part to have WA's routes from SAN/LAX/SFO feed AA's onward flights to Australia and New Zealand, but the US government would not allow the take over.

In 1974, AA swapped their South Pacific authority with Pan Am, in exchange for Pan Am's authority from Boston / New York / Washington to Bermuda, Barbados, and the Dominican Republic. Pan Am had enough onward flights from HNL to the South Pacific that they were able to operate AA's never used DFW-HNL route.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineTUSAA From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4706 times:

The PA JFK-DFW-HNL flight parked at AA's gates and was handled by AA at DFW. There were some photos floating around at one time showing a PA 747 parked at what is now terminal C. Im not sure if they were AA or DFW Airport "PR" shots.

User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4677 times:



Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 4):
Correct. Also, starting in July 1962, Pan Am equipment operated one-plane interchange service between Texas (DAL & HOU) and Chicago (O'Hare), then on to LHR, and FRA, in cooperation with Braniff Airways. A similiar agreement was in place with Delta on the IAD-ATL-MSY interchange service.

The Braniff interchange flight sometimes stopped at DTW in the 1960s, when PA flew ORD-DTW-BOS-LHR.

A third interchange that isn't as well known is the Pan Am / Northwest interchange, that routed MSP-DTW-BOS-LHR, with DTW the interchange point between PA and NW. At the time of the interchange, DTW's international facility was the lower level of NW's A concourse. This is why there are pictures in the data base of NW 707s at LHR.

This interchange ended in 1973, at the time of the energy crisis.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineCateringman From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4505 times:

It later operated with a 747 SP aircraft on the flight and did park on the North side
of the AA terminal.


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4350 times:
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Quoting Cateringman (Reply 10):
park on the North side
of the AA terminal.

Thanks for the info.


User currently offlineLima From Argentina, joined May 1999, 1122 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4278 times:

Was there ever a nonstop JFK-Honolulu?

User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4258 times:



Quoting Lima (Reply 12):
Was there ever a nonstop JFK-Honolulu?

Yes, in the 1980s for a short period of time post-dereg by PA. I believe it was operated 1987-1988 with a 747.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6836 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4168 times:



Quoting N202PA (Reply 13):
Quoting Lima (Reply 12):
Was there ever a nonstop JFK-Honolulu?

Yes, in the 1980s for a short period of time post-dereg by PA. I believe it was operated 1987-1988 with a 747.

That's about right. And of course UA flew JFK-HNL with a DC-8-62 around 1969-75; as I recall CO did it for a year or less and maybe TW once or twice too.

(Maybe even AA too, around 1970.)


User currently offlineScintx From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 270 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4135 times:



Quoting Cateringman (Reply 10):
It later operated with a 747 SP aircraft on the flight and did park on the North side
of the AA terminal.


Thank you for the post! I thought for years I was dreaming and I did see a PA 747SP. I would have been at DFW with my dad around 1978 and left the old Braniff terminal and I saw the plane parked as we exited what was 2W back then.



Attention All Planets of the Solar Federation....We have assumed control.....We have assumed control......
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4105 times:



Quoting Lima (Reply 12):
Was there ever a nonstop JFK-Honolulu?

Here's what I can offer:

Trans World Airlines June 27, 1986:

TW Flight 9
Depart JFK 9:30am
Arrive HNL 1:55pm
Nonstop
FriSatSunOnly

Pan Am January 18, 1988:

PA Flight 17
Depart JFK 9:15am
Arrive HNL 3:00pm
Nonstop
FriSatOnly

United Airlines Effective June 1, 1972

UA Flight 989
Depart JFK 10:00am
Arrive HNL 2:35pm
Nonstop
Daily

Greg
www.departedflights.com


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3980 times:



Quoting N202PA (Reply 13):
Quoting Lima (Reply 12):
Was there ever a nonstop JFK-Honolulu?

Yes, in the 1980s for a short period of time post-dereg by PA. I believe it was operated 1987-1988 with a 747.



Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
That's about right. And of course UA flew JFK-HNL with a DC-8-62 around 1969-75; as I recall CO did it for a year or less and maybe TW once or twice too.

(Maybe even AA too, around 1970.)

My earlier post answers your AA question:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
American's authority from the US Mainland to Hawaii required that one of every two US Mainland - Hawaii flights had to continue on to Australia or New Zealand. The exception was St Louis - Honolulu, which had no restrictions. The Australian and New Zealand governments only gave AA enough frequencies to fly 3x week to Auckland, and 5x week to Sydney and Melbourne.



Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 6):
The limited frequencies AA was given by the Australian and New Zealand governments effectively limited AA to two US Mainland - Honolulu flights a day, one of which could continue to either AKL or SYD / MEL, plus a third flight, St Louis, that was unrestricted. AA chose to fly JFK-HNL and DTW-ORD-HNL, plus the unrestricted STL flight, which originated in BOS, and deferred starting DFW or IAD pending (1) getting additional frequencies from Australia and / or New Zealand, or (2) having the "turn around" restriction lifted. All flights were operated with Boeing 707-323s.

UA's JFK-HNL nonstop lasted about ten years, from 1969 to 1979 / 1980. The rising cost of fuel in the late 1970s made it uneconomic for UA to fly DC-8-62s on the route. When UA dropped the route, they reasoned that they would keep most of the New York City - Hawaii traffic, because passengers would go JFK-LAX/SFO-HNL, or LGA-ORD-HNL.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3876 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 17):
UA's JFK-HNL nonstop lasted about ten years, from 1969 to 1979 / 1980.

Are you sure it was that long? I recall another thread on this subject where someone who seemed to have access to the old timetables said it more like 5 years.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6836 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Still around in 9/75, gone in 3/76.

CO's JFK-HNL DC-10 apparently lasted for a year or so before they shifted to EWR in late 1987.


User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3776 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Are you sure it was that long? I recall another thread on this subject where someone who seemed to have access to the old timetables said it more like 5 years.

From my personal collection (which is limited for the 1970s).....

The earliest United timetable I have....June 1, 1972....shows nonstop JFK-HNL service.

So do the following timetables:

July 1, 1972
October 28, 1793
May 1, 1974
June 13, 1975
September 3, 1975
October 26, 1975

The next timetable I have...dated June 11, 1976....there are NO nonstops between JFK and HNL.

I looked at approximately 20 more timetables dated 1977-1984 and I do not see the service resuming at any point.

So it looks like the service ended in late 75/early 76.....maybe someone can pinpoint it better.


User currently offlineBN727flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

The following UAL timetables during 1970 and 1971 show JFK-HNL non-stop:

Apr. 26, 1970
July 1, 1970
Oct. 25, 1970
June 11, 1971
Sep. 13, 1971

It was not operated as of the August 1, 1969 timetable, so it started sometime between September 1969 and 4/26/70.

Quoting N702ML (Reply 20):
So it looks like the service ended in late 75/early 76.....maybe someone can pinpoint it better.

By March 2, 1976, it was gone - replaced by a 747 operating JFK-LAX-HNL. If anyone has the UAL Dec. 18, 1975 timetable, check to see if JFK-HNL was operated as of that time. My guess is it was already out of the schedule by then, also.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3686 times:



Quoting BN727flyr (Reply 21):
The following UAL timetables during 1970 and 1971 show JFK-HNL non-stop:

Apr. 26, 1970
July 1, 1970
Oct. 25, 1970
June 11, 1971
Sep. 13, 1971

It was not operated as of the August 1, 1969 timetable, so it started sometime between September 1969 and 4/26/70.

I found a source that shows December 1, 1969 as the start date for UA's JFK-HNL nonstop service. ORD-HNL nonstop began October 1, 1969 (both using DC-8-62).


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