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Effect On Copa And PTY?- CO To Star Alliance  
User currently offlineBentley55 From Panama, joined Mar 2008, 99 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6536 times:

Seeing that CO will be moving to Star Alliance, what are the expected effects on CM and PTY?

My predictions & hopes:

1.CM joining Star Alliance
2. New CM service to Canada and/or Air Canada service to PTY, especially since Canada and Panama signed a new agreement.
3. Either LH, Tap, or Swiss service between Europe and PTY- assuming that CM is in Star, they should do a good job of feeding passengers to the European service.
4. CM or UA service between PTY and ORD

[Edited 2008-06-20 02:42:08]

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAer From Guatemala, joined Mar 2004, 1044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6391 times:

How will this work if TA is closer to *A than CM?

TA already has agreements with UA and LH.

CO is still in the works and CM hasn't even considered that, plus KL needs them to make their PTY flight work.



nice and spacious airports in need of new airlines and flights... GUA or FRS anyone?... anyone at all?
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 6346 times:

The board of directors of CM initially had announced that they would be prepared to follow CO in any alliance in which they will be placed in due to the close collaboration among them and because they still do not have a huge stake with Sky Team as well.
In May 2008, CO suddenly sold its remaining 4,38 million shares of CM anyhow.




If CM would follow CO to any global alliance they go, it's predictable that CM might enter to Star Alliance later.
If they materialize it, TA might not be welcomed in such group, in despite of both the strong business relationship with UA and the signed memorandum of understanding with LH.
Both CM and TA duplicate most of their current stations and this fact wouldn't be suitable for the objectives of Star Alliance.
This issue might work as well on the other side: if TA joins Star Alliance, CM could be blocked to enter in.
AV would have free of hurdles to join Sky Team in the mid-term.




.

Quoting Bentley55 (Thread starter):
Either LH, Tap, or Swiss service between Europe and PTY- assuming that CM is in Star, they should do a good job of feeding passengers to the European service.

I agree that CM would make an excellent transference of passengers from PTY for all those European travelers who arrive there by means of Star Alliance system.
Nevertheless, where do we leave the existence of KL AMS-PTY 3x weekly? They have established agreements with CM for the same purposes.
On the other hand, KL might assume a simple interline treaty with CM in the future.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6305 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 2):
Quoting Bentley55 (Thread starter):
Either LH, Tap, or Swiss service between Europe and PTY- assuming that CM is in Star, they should do a good job of feeding passengers to the European service.

I agree that CM would make an excellent transference of passengers from PTY for all those European travelers who arrive there by means of Star Alliance system.
Nevertheless, where do we leave the existence of KL AMS-PTY 3x weekly? They have established agreements with CM for the same purposes.
On the other hand, KL might assume a simple interline treaty with CM in the future.

If the PTY-KLM flights continue to be a success then their should be no reason for CM and KL to break the agreement even if they end up in different alliances. CM would just continue to codeshare with them on certain routes and vice versa.

I think CM will leave Sky, they have an agreement with CO till at least 2015 if I am not mistaken.


User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6227 times:

I think we would see and LH flight to PTY sooner or later.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineBentley55 From Panama, joined Mar 2008, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6136 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 2):
Nevertheless, where do we leave the existence of KL AMS-PTY 3x weekly? They have established agreements with CM for the same purposes.
On the other hand, KL might assume a simple interline treaty with CM in the future.

If CM and KL continue the codeshare then i would expect KLM to continue its service to PTY. However, if CM is part of *A, i would expect and hope that either LH or SWISS start service to PTY. And if they did, i would assume that CM would have a higher priority to send passengers onto the *A carrier relative to KLM.

Can we expect to see UA begin service to PTY? What about Air Canda (especially with the new bilateral agreement between Panama and Canada). I think that Canada would be a good link to Asia for many passengers who dont/cant want to go via the US or Europe.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6032 times:



Quoting Bentley55 (Reply 5):
). I think that Canada would be a good link to Asia for many passengers who dont/cant want to go via the US or Europe.

Only for those who doesn't need Canadian visas. Lots of Latinamericans actually do.

If CM is to follow CO into Star Alliance, I can see CM trying to get UA to fly IAD-PTY instead of them (in order to offer better connections @ IAD), SFO-PTY and even ORD-PTY.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5948 times:



Quoting Luisca (Reply 3):
If the PTY-KLM flights continue to be a success then their should be no reason for CM and KL to break the agreement even if they end up in different alliances.

 checkmark 
Airlines usually sustain business agreements with different carriers regardless the global alliance in which they are involved.
For example, Avianca keeps deals with entities belonging to the three groups:
Iberia [OneWorld]
Delta [SkyTeam]
Air Canada [Star Alliance]




.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 3):
I think CM will leave Sky, they have an agreement with CO till at least 2015 if I am not mistaken.

2012.

"However, we have an alliance with Continental that's very strong and a contract that runs through 2012, so we plan to remain with Continental".
Pedro Heilbron, Copa Holdings' CEO. February 2008.





.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 4):
I think we would see and LH flight to PTY sooner or later.

LH has rather a weak presence in the Latin American market-share: MEX, CCS, GRU and EZE as SCL is the sole station on Swiss [LX].




.

Quoting Bentley55 (Reply 5):
Can we expect to see UA begin service to PTY?

If CM joins to Star Alliance, CM PTY-MIA might be code-shared with UA as the mentioned route was served by UA and Pan Am in the past. CM PTY-IAD might follow a resemblance.
UA has been missing from the Central American skies by means of their own frames: they cut UA LAX-SAL on March 01st as UA LAX-GUA will be filed on September 01st.
Related to the Central American landscape, UA relies in the current code-share services provided by TA that are aiming to the US bound.




.

Quoting Bentley55 (Reply 5):
What about Air Canada (especially with the new bilateral agreement between Panama and Canada). I think that Canada would be a good link to Asia for many passengers who dont/cant want to go via the US or Europe.


The Canadian transit visa is compulsory for most Latin American citizenship.
The Panamanian has been included in such isuue.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5693 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 2):
Both CM and TA duplicate most of their current stations and this fact wouldn't be suitable for the objectives of Star Alliance.

That's certainly true, but the route maps are much different. MIA-SCL on TA, for example, requires 2 stops and nearly 24 hours. TA does a very poor job of doing what CM does best... connecting North and South America

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 7):
Related to the Central American landscape, UA relies in the current code-share services provided by TA that are aiming to the US bound.

I suspect that would continue; CM flies to 2 UA hubs right now, and with a bunch of UA feed, they'd likely add ORD. That's a better way to connect ORD to South America than through GRU, which is how UA currently does it.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5651 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
MIA-SCL on TA, for example, requires 2 stops and nearly 24 hours.

IMHO, TA doesn't care too much in connecting stations of deep South America towards Miami and perhaps it's more attractive to link several points through LIM as non-stop flights and following this model:

[SCL-GRU-GIG-EZE-MVD-LPB-VVI-CUZ] - LIM - [UIO-GYE-BOG-MDE-CCS-SJO-GUA-SAL]

Even considering one stopover, TA cannot compete with both LA SCL-MIA and AA SCL-MIA.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5639 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 9):
Even considering one stopover, TA cannot compete with both LA SCL-MIA and AA SCL-MIA.

It's the same story with most North America-South America routes, even those without nonstop competition. CM does a far better job.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5620 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
CM flies to 2 UA hubs right now, and with a bunch of UA feed, they'd likely add ORD.

That's very unlikely to happen. CM flies to IAD and LAX (UA hubs) at very bad times. The only connecting traffic CM would get from UA might be at LAX southbound.
Just see what happens between CO and CM in PTY. I would expect UA to fly their own metal from IAD, ORD and SFO to PTY and then connect with CM hub.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5616 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 11):
Just see what happens between CO and CM in PTY. I would expect UA to fly their own metal from IAD, ORD and SFO to PTY and then connect with CM hub.

But they don't do that with TA. Why would it be any different with CM?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTroest From Denmark, joined Mar 2008, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5597 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 2):
If CM would follow CO to any global alliance they go, it's predictable that CM might enter to Star Alliance later.

Correct me if i'm wrong. Is it not up to Star Alliance to decide if CM can join or not? CO can not guarantee CM's future alliance with *A anyway. If LH decide TA to join instead I do not see CM in *A in the near future.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5550 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
CM does a far better job.

Yes, CM PTY-MCO is showing up healthy load factors and most likely sustained in proper connections at PTY.




.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
But they don't do that with TA. Why would it be any different with CM?

TA ORD-GUA, TA IAD-SAL and TA IAD-GUA rely on the O&D traffic, but it's not the same situation for CM PTY-IAD.
IMHO, TA is not exploiting properly its treaty with UA because few flights originated in Central America are timed with onward connections through the hubs of UA where TA uses to fly nowadays.




.

Quoting Troest (Reply 13):
Is it not up to Star Alliance to decide if CM can join or not? CO can not guarantee CM's future alliance with *A anyway. If LH decide TA to join instead I do not see CM in *A in the near future.

CO is as important for CM as UA for TA, but it doesn't automatically equate that the Central American airlines would easily join into Star Alliance later.
At this time, the facts are as follows:
CO is apparently leaving SkyTeam in favor of Star Alliance.
CM would follow CO, regardless the alliance they go.
TA is aiming to Star Alliance taking into account the code-share deal with UA as well as the memorandum of understanding signed with LH last year.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5499 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 14):
TA is aiming to Star Alliance taking into account the code-share deal with UA as well as the memorandum of understanding signed with LH last year.

let me ad one more.

TA is up the creek without a paddle (or parrot)



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5498 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 14):
At this time, the facts are as follows:
CO is apparently leaving SkyTeam in favor of Star Alliance.
CM would follow CO, regardless the alliance they go.
TA is aiming to Star Alliance taking into account the code-share deal with UA as well as the memorandum of understanding signed with LH last year.

Well-put. I wonder if there's room for both of them. Surely, that would make *A the undisputed leader in Central America and give them a pretty darn good position in South America as well. They'd arguably be better-positioned than OneWorld in the region if they could get TA, CM, and JJ all to join.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5398 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Surely, that would make *A the undisputed leader in Central America.

For the meantime, Star Alliance has the poorest presence in Central America by means of their own apparatus:

AC YYZ-SJO 2x weekly
AC YYZ-LIR 1x weekly
US CLT-GUA 7x weekly
US CLT-SJO 7x weekly
US CLT-BZE 1x weekly
US CLT-LIR 1x weekly
UA LAX-GUA 7x weekly [to be discontinued on September 01st].
UA ORD-LIR 2x weekly [seasonal]
US PHX-SJO variable frequencies [seasonal]
US PHL-SJO 1x weekly [seasonal]

The point is that OneWorld and SkyTeam groups are currently by far surpassing the amount of weekly flights of Star Alliance in Central America.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5392 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 17):
For the meantime, Star Alliance has the poorest presence in Central America by means of their own apparatus:

CO has a reasonably good presence in Central America as well.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5288 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 17):
US CLT-BZE 1x weekly

This is sometime 4X, and for a couple of weeks a year...daily.

And they consistently have one of the higher LF....somewhere 85-90%



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineLudavid777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5244 times:

As far as loyalty programs are concerned, Copa's frequent flyer is Onepass, before Copa was even a skyteam associate, anyone with a Onepass account, that being a Copa customer or Continental could benefit from the Skyteam agreements equally. The agreement continues if CO does indeed switch to Star, so as far as mileage, Copa customers will automatically be able to start earning miles on Star carriers.

As far as the codeshare, TA was previously codeshare partners with US, and AA. As of now they currently have codeshare agreements with AF, IB, UA, and AV. Just because they have those agreements it doesn't mean TA would be joining Star, Oneworld, or Skyteam. After UA's on going Latin America pull-out that started in 2002, they were looking for someone that could reach those destinations without conflict and TA is a good fit. The agreement is only between UA/TA none of the other Star Alliance carriers.

The relationship CO has with CM is more than a codeshare, it's a brand as well... From the smallest details such as CM wearing the same uniforms, aircraft interiors, sharing Shares/Sonic GDS, inventory seat system, CO managing Onepass as CM frequent flyer, meal trays and casseroles, to their mostly all boeing fleet... Heck the non-rev policy on CO/CM is almost as flying your own employer carrier.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5176 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 17):
For the meantime, Star Alliance has the poorest presence in Central America by means of their own apparatus:

AC YYZ-SJO 2x weekly
AC YYZ-LIR 1x weekly
US CLT-GUA 7x weekly
US CLT-SJO 7x weekly
US CLT-BZE 1x weekly
US CLT-LIR 1x weekly
UA LAX-GUA 7x weekly [to be discontinued on September 01st].
UA ORD-LIR 2x weekly [seasonal]
US PHX-SJO variable frequencies [seasonal]
US PHL-SJO 1x weekly [seasonal]

As far as I brought up before, the information listed above illustrates the current status for Star Alliance in Central America.
Some of the frequencies may vary throughout the year and CO is evenly involved into SkyTeam.
However, this landscape may change in the future depending on the forthcoming movements given by CO, CM and TA in the mid-term.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineAer From Guatemala, joined Mar 2004, 1044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5148 times:



Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 20):
The agreement is only between UA/TA none of the other Star Alliance carriers.

TA is in the process of a memorandum of understanding with LH



nice and spacious airports in need of new airlines and flights... GUA or FRS anyone?... anyone at all?
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