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BA CityFlyer Fleet Replacement  
User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Hi Everyone,

My questions are:

1. When do you think BA will announce the fleet replacement for CityFlyer?
2. Which aircraft family do you think they will go with?

I personally would love to see the Embraer E-Jets family, and I know they are pretty efficient.

Is there really any chance that BA will decide to go back to turboprops? (I know this has been mentioned by some people)

I have just read a press release from Embraer which states that the E-190 is due to complete certification for operations into LCY by the end of 2008.

I would think that BA would be more interested in the E-190 (rather than the E-170) as it has more capacity and better range capabilities. Surely this is important in an airport like LCY?

Any chance that BA/Embraer could announce an order at Farnborough?

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12466 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8017 times:

I don't think they've even started looking, although I am sure they are well aware of the need to replace the RJ100s (and RJ85s) at some stage. If the 190 is LCY-certified, then that will certainly be worthy of consideration.

User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 867 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7990 times:

According to this flightglobal article, BA are looking to replace the fleet from early 2009.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ace-rj100-fleet-by-early-2009.html
I think BA don't really need additional capacity as many flight don't leave full, BA makes the money because the passengers pay full fares from LCY. I think range will be much more important for BA so they can continue with routes to MAD, WAW & BCN.

On another note, any ideas on possible new routes for BA from LCY?


User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7935 times:



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 2):
On another note, any ideas on possible new routes for BA from LCY?

I would like to see the return of MXP. I think FCO would also be a good route to operate. As would GVA. Possibly ARN or CPH and maybe HEL, which could codeshare with Finnair.

In terms of domestic routes...I think that ABZ could work, now that LGW has been dropped. Also NCL perhaps 2/3 x daily and one of the Belfast airports.

Also JER and IOM.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7714 times:



Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):
As would GVA. Possibly ARN or CPH and maybe HEL, which could codeshare with Finnair.

GVA would not work. They have tried it before and could not macth LX's services and frequencies.

ARN could be a good addition.

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):
In terms of domestic routes...I think that ABZ could work, now that LGW has been dropped. Also NCL perhaps 2/3 x daily and one of the Belfast airports.

Also JER and IOM.

ABZ and NCL would work but I don't think JER and IOM would provide good yields...

LCY is as LHR. It is restricted and BA has to operate routes where it sees most benefits.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7647 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
GVA would not work. They have tried it before and could not macth LX's services and frequencies.

I did think that actually...but perhaps a few winter season charters on Saturdays for the skiiers. Less flights at LCY on Saturdays so slots will be available and so would aircraft.


User currently offlineSandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7539 times:
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Why the need to replace them so soon? Are they un-economical aircraft to fly?

The RJ's that fly on Cityflyer are at most 11 years old which makes them marginally younger than the average fleet age (source) and have a slightly larger capacity than the ERJ190 at 98 seats (source).


I know that the A318 is unattractive because of weight, but does provide flight deck commonality with the A320 family at BA?

Sandyb123



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User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4920 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7512 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
ABZ and NCL would work but I don't think JER and IOM would provide good yields...

JER and IOM have finance industries that could provide some good yields. Both islands have had LCY links for a while and it is only since Euromanx collapsed that IOM has not had more than one daily LCY flight with day return option

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):
one of the Belfast airports.

Cityjet just failed with BHD

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 5):
Less flights at LCY on Saturdays so slots will be available and so would aircraft.

Dont forget LCY close at 12:30 on Saturdays



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User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7401 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 7):
Dont forget LCY close at 12:30 on Saturdays

They could still get a couple of morning flights in though.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7331 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 7):

JER and IOM have finance industries that could provide some good yields. Both islands have had LCY links for a while and it is only since Euromanx collapsed that IOM has not had more than one daily LCY flight with day return option

Additionally neither the Isle of Man or Jersey are in the EU. So they are effectively off-shore investment havens with good links to on-shore EU financial centres, particularly the City of London.


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7165 times:



Quoting 8herveg (Reply 3):
maybe HEL, which could codeshare with Finnair.

I have heard Finnair has been interested in HEL-LCY route, a suitable a/c has been the question.
Can you operate the E170 to LCY?


User currently offlineBMIE70 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7063 times:

Another article from Flight http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...on-all-change-at-ba-cityflyer.html mentions that they are in discussions with Embraer and Bombardier. The problem with the Q400 is that it doesn't have the capacity for the busier routes like EDI. I'm not sure that the Q400X would be big enough either.

The A318 has been discounted already on the grounds that it too heavy.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4920 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6992 times:



Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
Quoting Humberside (Reply 7):
Dont forget LCY close at 12:30 on Saturdays

They could still get a couple of morning flights in though.

Yes, but getting an out and back flight, then out again before closure would be tight (e.g. LCY-GVA-LCY-EDI). Using an outstationed aircraft, say GVA-LCY-GVA would definetly be possible though



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User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6899 times:



Quoting Andaman (Reply 10):
I have heard Finnair has been interested in HEL-LCY route, a suitable a/c has been the question.
Can you operate the E170 to LCY?

I belive the E170 has been certified into LCY, but not the E190. So yes, Finnair could operate the E170 into LCY.


User currently offlineBMIE70 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6688 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 13):


Quoting Andaman (Reply 10):
I have heard Finnair has been interested in HEL-LCY route, a suitable a/c has been the question.
Can you operate the E170 to LCY?

I belive the E170 has been certified into LCY, but not the E190. So yes, Finnair could operate the E170 into LCY.

They could but not from HEL. The range limit on the E170 (presumably with 70 seats occupied) from LCY is 750nm. Not even enough to get you to ARN. http://www.embraercommercialjets.com.../ejets/default.asp?tela=efficiency

I guess that in terms of range/payload from LCY the Avros/146s are hard to beat.

Edit: Actually at 750nm I don't know if they'll be able to reach MAD or WAW either! Don't know if things would be any better with the E190.

[Edited 2008-06-22 08:39:32]

User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6616 times:



Quoting BMIE70 (Reply 14):
They could but not from HEL. The range limit on the E170 (presumably with 70 seats occupied) from LCY is 750nm

Me confused now... AY uses E170 with 76 seats on the routes like HEL-GVA 1070nm,
which is around 100nm more than HEL-LCY would be.


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User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6502 times:

The E-190 is due to complete certification for LCY by the end of 2008, according to www.embraer.com

User currently offlineBMIE70 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6477 times:



Quoting Andaman (Reply 15):


Quoting BMIE70 (Reply 14):
They could but not from HEL. The range limit on the E170 (presumably with 70 seats occupied) from LCY is 750nm

Me confused now... AY uses E170 with 76 seats on the routes like HEL-GVA 1070nm,
which is around 100nm more than HEL-LCY would be.

Thinking about it HEL-LCY is fine as the fuel load would be burnt during the flight. However due to the short runway at LCY the E170 wouldn't be able to takeoff with 70 passengers and sufficient fuel to make it to HEL. It is similiar to the situation with A318s to JFK which will have to make a fuel stop on the outbound leg from LCY.

I hope that makes sense  Smile, though I admit it a bit of a confusing situation.


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6467 times:



Quoting BMIE70 (Reply 17):
I hope that makes sense Smile, though I admit it a bit of a confusing situation.

Ok thanks, so the combination HEL-LCY & E170 doesn't work  Sad


User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6110 times:

Anybody think that BA might announce the replacement aircraft at Farnborough?

User currently offlineSandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5935 times:
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Not sure? I refer to my post above. If the A318 is to uneconomical to fly then what replaces the avro's into LCY? I assume there will be a presence of the A31X family at Farnborough?

What are the chances?

Sandyb123



Member of the mile high club
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

Quoting Andaman (Reply 18):
Ok thanks, so the combination HEL-LCY & E170 doesn't work

But how about the E190 would it be able to do HEL/LCY when it gains it's certification

GVA and MXP are routes that have been tried and BACF are 99% likely not gonna go back there.

Can see BACF possibly adding routes to HEL / OSL / LIN / CPH / DUS / BRU / LIS. All these routes are routes where BA has large corperate contracts that have offices in the city.

They would ideally also like to serve destanations as far as DME. However not sure the E190 would have the range.

[Edited 2008-07-07 20:50:00]

User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5413 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 21):
Can see BACF possibly adding routes to HEL / OSL / LIN / CPH / DUS / BRU / LIS. All these routes are routes where BA has large corperate contracts that have offices in the city.

BA can use those services to feed their new JFK services. But BA needs to upgrade its Club Europe product for that!



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5301 times:



Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 20):
If the A318 is to uneconomical to fly then what replaces the avro's into LCY?

Do they need a replacement in the first place? And even if it's needed.. does it have to be all-at-once? Some routes can do fine with the replacement while others need the RJ due to its perfomance, capacity, capacity, or whatever.... These routes can keep the RJ until a suitable replacement shows up.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 22):
BA can use those services to feed their new JFK services

I doubt anyone would fly XXX-LCY-Somewhere(likely SNN)-JFK-LCY-XXX.
They would fly XXX-NYC business and non-stop saving money, time and hassle. Apart from that, if LCY can't support a 48-seat service to JFK without feed, maybe it's time to re-think its launch.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5294 times:



Quoting Aisak (Reply 23):
I doubt anyone would fly XXX-LCY-Somewhere(likely SNN)-JFK-LCY-XXX.

Why not? If I live in EDI and I am using BA to fly to JFK I would certainly prefer to go through LCY as opposed to LHR :

- Less connecting time;
- Less hassle;
- Less delays;
- Less chances of losing bags at LCY.

While 48 seats is not a lot, I guess there will be days where demand will be lower and BA could then accomodate transfer pax on those flights. If they pay Club World tariffs, I don't see why they won't be able to use these services.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
25 BAfan : The A318's on the new LCY-JFK service will be configured in all business class seating, with a total of 32 seats. This service is going to be very app
26 AIR MALTA : I think it will be a very popular service indeed. And BA can afford to increase fares on that route. 32 seats is not a lot and they will sell fast. B
27 SeansasLCY : Sun air did announce CPH-LCY but pulled it just after SK announced CPH-LCY. So they haven't actually operated into LCY. Its a shame but at that time
28 BALHRWWCC : BACF are desperately trying to source more aircraft. Remember they are currently using a Flightline Bae146-200 on the DUB route. Which is performing w
29 Aisak : I don't think BA will go that way. I recall reading here that (regarding the new JFK service) LCY will be like another LHR terminal, meaning the pass
30 AIR MALTA : Do you know which destinations? This could also be true. But I guess BA will only offer flexible J tickets on the route, to maximize yields...
31 Viscount724 : I think LX with 7 daily and AF (City Jet) with 4 daily GVA-LCY is plenty of capacity for the market. As mentioned, BA was unsuccessful in their previ
32 JER757 : BA has a loyal customer base in JER from the finance industry, many of which are willing to pay top fares. BA's JER-LGW has I think some of the highe
33 StarGoldLHR : LCY to EDI is a nice little earner for BA. I have a customer project in EDI which see's me fly from LCY to EDI almost weekly this year, sometimes dail
34 BALHRWWCC : EDI/LCY is now on a par with LHR service. When it comes to revenue. BA hold the RBS and HBOS aswell as a number of other corperate travel contracts.
35 AIR MALTA : How is the service level on those LCY routes. I have travelled on the 13:00 EDI/LCY and I got a sandwich and hot and cold drinks. Do the morning fligh
36 Vfw614 : Getting the E190 certificated for LCY does not mean that it can lift a useful load to a lot of destinations. Even the RJ100 is weight restricted beyo
37 BAfan : It has already been announced that BA are looking at replacing the CityFlyer fleet, and that this announcement is expected by the end of the year. Cou
38 VV701 : I am not sure that this is an issue. Most BA aircraft are effectively based at the "away" airports where they overnight due to restricted parking spa
39 Dano1977 : Would it be feasible for BACF to wait for the Bombardier C series in service entry? If so they could replace some of the older BAe146's/AVRO's with Q4
40 Vfw614 : The usefulness of the E190 out of LCY is nicely demonstrated by this official Embraer data: Take Off Field Length, ISA, SL, MTOW 6,745ft 2,056m Take O
41 Aisak : Seriously... no punch intended It's the 319 the one financially unsustainable to operate from LCY becasue it can't get out of there. A 318 full of fu
42 BAfan : I guess we will have to wait till next week to see if anything is announced at Farnborough. I really hope they order the E-Jets, they will look great
43 AIR MALTA : I have the same point of view. And there aren't any turboprop available to match the capacity of an ARJ or an AR8. And for longer flights (MAD or ROM
44 BAfan : Could it be possible that BA might order the Bombardier C-Series? I have seen the recent news about Lufthansa, and it got me thinking. They are due to
45 Viscount724 : But the LCY runway is 4948 ft (1508m). That should give some margin for routes at least somewhat longer than 500nm for a 4157 ft (1267m) runway. And
46 Vfw614 : I meant not the design history of the 146/ARJ, but BACF's fleet policy. They have added two RJ85s because the RJ100s could not lift useful loads on t
47 BALHRWWCC : All BACF decisions have to go through BA head office at LHR. BA learned a long time ago thet a multiple aircarft type fleet cost more and more money
48 ZuluTime : Not at all - BA missed out because AF/KLM were way ahead of them on getting the deal done. There was no issue of BA walking away from the deal becaus
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